Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Texas Mentors and Coaches received the email below yesterday regarding Districts in Texas.

Norman

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Hey Coach,

Will Texas be pushing for inter-district play (with points actually counting)?

-Akash

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Is SC going district? I'm guessing he meant NC.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

NC, SC: They are almost in the same place. Maybe SC is being absorbed by NC. [duck and cover mode on] :)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Ittl bitty pieces are: http://wtop.com/tech/2016/05/altered...rent-carolina/

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Who has a copy of the submitted "District Model draft proposal" to share with Texas FRC teams?

The document wasn't attached to my copy of the email notification which I'm sure was just an oversight--so whoever has a copy of the proposal please share it here on CD.

In the meantime, I've emailed and asked FIRST in Texas HQ to send me a copy of the proposal and I'm sure they will send in support of transparency and keeping teams well informed on this development.

--Michael Blake

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Or, as is common when two legal entities are attempting to come to a contractual agreement, the details won't be made public until after the agreement is signed. It's not a question of transparency, it's a question of legal obligations for the two corporations. Personally, I wouldn't expect details to be made available until after an agreement was reached.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Well... it is a question of transparency when it comes to how it will affect my teams that I have a responsibility to look out for.

To get the info _after_ the agreement is signed is TOO LATE to have an opportunity to review and comment and maybe to organize an effort to affect what the final agreement form is.

This change over is the BIGGEST thing to happen to Texas FRC teams, ever... and IMO the affected teams should be apprised of what's proposed and should be afforded an opportunity for input.

--Michael Blake

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Then they better give me SC gas prices and fireworks! I used to live in Lake Wylie where I could live in NC and see SC from my porch. I will just say that it is totally different even 150 feet away. Just look at the roads :eek:

On topic, I think SC should go districts too. They are surrounded by districts and Palmetto was huge this year. I know several teams that would like those multiple plays without needing to travel for hours to get them!

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Michael,

We (as Texas mentors) have had a chance to provide comments and input about districts for quite some time now. In May of 2015 an email was sent to all texas teams with everyone that is on the 20 person District Competition Committee and how to reach them. The committee is comprised of members from a range of types of teams. There were 5 POCs for the Alamo regional that the email literally urged you to correspond with to give your input.

IMO, like Jon said, it doesn't make sense to send out what was proposed. People will start planning towards what was proposed when FIRST could reject it out right, accept it as is, or suggest major modifications. Two of those three options could then cause plenty of people to get all up in a huff about the changes (whether it's "why wouldn't HQ accept that" or "why did HQ accept that").

Transparency is good. I think FiT sending out this email now saying that a proposal has been sent to HQ is being much more transparent than some things we've seen in the past. Even with all the UIL discussion, I didn't know there was really a chance to become UIL in the middle of the school year/build season, and threw me for a loop. This allows us to continue to make plans for regionals next year, while being prepared for possible changes, and lets us know that the "Texas districts soon" is a REAL thing this time around, as opposed to the past 2/3/4 years where I've heard "Texas districts soon".

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Looks like Texas will be a priority for us in 2017 if they dont go districts. Running out of places to play.
But anyhow, good luck with getting it. Any area that can implement districts is an overall benefit for all participating/eligible teams.:)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

On one hand, I love district events and I think Texas moving to them is great.
On the other hand, no Texas teams in CA anymore. D:

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Boise is nice in the Spring;)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Guess nobody called Mid-Atlantic.

Feelsbadman :(

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice that.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

I hear Hawaii is not bad also.:D
We will be in Idaho one day soon!

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

So it Duluth... wait, scratch that. No it's not :)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

I am happy to hear that more teams will be able to benefit from the district system. It is really great for teams, especially struggling ones. It is the next step forward for making FIRST sustainable in regions that can support a district. It'll be interesting to see how well the system works in an area as large as Texas.

I wouldn't say no Texas teams in CA quite yet. District teams can still attend regionals, and a decent number do to travel, play with different teams, get some out-of-district practice, or qualify for CMP. Off the top of my head I know that in MAR 11, 87, 303, 1676, 2016, 2234, 2590, 3314, and 4575 competed at various regionals this year.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Maybe we can have a revised email that goes "Our friends in other states and regions...and our acquaintances in MAR".
::ouch::

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Like you stated, the thing that will be interesting to me about Texas districts is there's a significant # of teams that don't have more than 1 event (currently) within 300 miles of them, and some of those don't have any event within 300 miles. If the normal district rules apply, forcing those teams to do two competitions in Texas could place a significant burden on them, or force something like Lubbock to host 2 district events back to back with many of the teams competing in both against a roster of teams that is mostly the same, or some other solution I have not heard of/thought of. There's a LOT of Texas that is not within a couple hours drive of San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, or Houston.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

As a team in Oklahoma looking at going to multiple regionals next year, that's going to kill most of our options. Arkansas and Kansas City are the only other nearby regionals (6 hours or less) besides OKC (2 minute drive). And KC and OKC were the same weekend last year. Texas is the entire landmass to our west and south.

I think that we'll need to attend the Hawaii Regional to make up for the loss of local Regionals.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

A normalizing travel stipend would do it. They'd (FIRST in Texas) just have to redirect funds to support and/or raise additional funds towards that.

I know easier said then done on the raising of the additonal funds but my experience is it's very doable in Texas.

--Michael Blake

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Come on over to the other Missouri regional, we'd love to have you :) (assuming St. Louis isn't on the same week as Arkansas and KC this year.)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

There is always Denver. Shouldn't be too bad to get to from OKC. We always enjoy out-of-town teams to Kansas City.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

+1

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Texas had 136 teams in 2015 according to this, so there will probably be around 7 events minimum (2 plays per team at 40 team events comes out to 6.8 events needed), though there will probably be several more, maybe like 10 (this is a complete guess), in actuality. According to TBA there were 4 events in Texas this year, so there will likely be twice or more as many events in Texas on the district model compared to the regional model. While I am sure some teams will have a larger travel burden because of districts, many teams will probably end up with more events close to them than they currently have.

Basically, I am trying to say that the change in travel burden will, at a minimum, probably not be quite as bad as you think, if not make things easier for a lot of teams.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Thanks for the offer. We've had three robot trips to MO so far this year for FTC (KC, Rolla, and St. Louis), so we're happy with the place. We get a lot of MO teams at the OKC Regional, too.

Denver is a great city, too. 10 hour drive of wind farms, though. St. Louis is about 8.

It would be nice if there was some way to not shut out nearby teams for districts. I don't think we're going to districts any time soon, so if MO goes to districts we will be in trouble. The Texas thing definitely limits the options because we looked at Dallas, Houston, and Alamo before ending up at Hub City this year. But I hope it works out for the best in Texas.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

I agree that there will be several more competitions. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than the required 7. I also think that the travel burden will be easier for some teams (Many teams that used to only be able to do 1 event now being able to easily attend 2 district competitions within their home towns of Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, or Houston, and maybe Lubbock with little to no cost increase) But I will be surprised if any pop up outside of Lubbock, Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. The team density outside of any of those cities just doesn't justify having a district competition anywhere else, and I don't think anyone has experience running district events outside of those 5 cities. So I think for several teams, more competitions available just doesn't help, and requiring attendance at 2 district competitions may prove to be an insurmountable financial burden. I'm not sure how many teams are in west texas (I wish there was a google map with a dot for every team in texas, but I don't want to take the time to make that happen), but for a team in El Paso the two closest cities that have event experience are Lubbock (5.5 hrs away) and San Antonio (7.5 hrs away). If the point of districts is to have two competitions ideally within driving distance to eliminate the need for a hotel, then that's just not possible with a sustainable team density for the foreseeable future.

All that said - I'm strongly for districts. I think it helps a significant number of teams, helps the teams of Texas from a world champs standpoint, and I'm hopeful that the negative impact to teams will be non-existent or mitigate-able. I'm just think/hope that Texas districts is a set up to function a little different than existing models.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Andrew... what do you think of a financial travel stipend to normalize travel for these far-flung teams funded by FIRST in Texas?

It's not perfect because of the hours of extra travel time you can't recover for these teams but would be the closest to the best solution possible I believe.

--Michael Blake

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Bluntly put - I think it's naive to think that it'd happen. The Texas Workforce Commission grants, which seems to be the majority of the funding, already has the stipulations that it can't be used for travel, food, or lodging. My experience has been that most sponsors do not want money spent on those things, and I'd be hard pressed to think that FiT could find companies that would allow for their sponsorship to be used for costs associated with travel. Putting that burden on FiT just isn't any more sensible than putting it on the teams.

There's also nuances to consider in team sizes (how many rooms), and district rules regarding travel (for instance, any travel we use - bus or vans - have to be through a school approved vendor). If you were to attempt to do a financial stipend, I'd guess that the sponsors would also want to control what bus/van/hotel is used rather than just give the money to a team outright which could cause it's own set of problems. Granted though, if you could even get to this point I think most teams that have to deal with those sort of rules imposed by a district could find a way to make something work if it reduces costs...but I've learned never to doubt the ability for rules and regulations to force a decision that doesn't make any sense or to turn down "free money".

In addition to seeming unrealistic IMO, I think it treats the symptom rather than do anything to address an issue.

To be fair, I don't have a solution that I think is sufficient either. Do you allow teams to duplicate their score from attending 1 event if they justifiably can't attend 2? Do you reduce their registration fee to do only 1 district event? Do you allow west texas teams or border teams to compete out of state to count for district points? Do you only have districts for the parts of texas with a required team density (basically east texas)? Do you allow teams that aren't within XXX miles of a district event to decide on their own to opt-in or opt-out of districts? All of these come with their own set of obvious problems.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Wow, Andrew... "naive" is not usually a word associated with my thoughts... lol

I prefer "learned and aspirational"... ;-)

--Michael

P.S. I could raise that money for FIRST in Texas and I offered to raise substantial money for them and they turned me down... so that's that.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Haha, if I had any doubt as to if you were a fellow mentor, I'd be less blunt as to why I don't think it'd work. And it's certainly possible that it may be me that's naive about fundraising substantial funds for the sole use of travel - but my own experiences over the past 10 years both in FIRST and the profesional world are that travel money is hard to come by.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Andrew... everything you raise here is legit and the opposite of naive < ;-) > but there needs to be something done, at least initially, for these West Texas and Southwest Texas teams that are going to get killed by that second competition requirement.

Some of your suggestions above are _really_ interesting...

--Michael

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Lubbock or Alamo would be our priority since we havent done them before. We always planned to, just a matter of when.
Want to see your shop and visit your school also.:)

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Glenn,

It would be great to have you guys at either of those events.

Our shop is small currently. We are fortunate to be moving into some new space in about 3 weeks though. We would love to host you guys at WHS for a few days though. We could go check out some live music here in Austin.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

+1

Or add going to one of the hiking trails there like zilker park or lost maples

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Thank you! Would appreciate that very much.

A close family friend are all flying to Austin today. They moved from Waialua to Austin several years ago and going to see one of them who graduates/graduated from high school.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

There's a very high probability that you'll have a place in Minnesota for the next few years. I love playing with you guys so that makes staying in the regional format a little better.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Many of those teams were already failing. If FiT can get two districts in Lubbock, one in El Paso and one in the McAllen area, it should only help those struggling areas.

There will be teams that will struggle with this in West Texas(~2) but they aren't the only ones there are also teams in East Texas(~4-5) and a couple of Coastal Teams(~2) that may need help in the first couple of years but going by 2016 teams it shouldn't be more then 15 total teams. Hopefully FiT will find some funds or expectations for them.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

http://www.freemaptools.com/radius-a...=0 0FF00&mt=r

So 300 miles radius around Midland covers lots of ground.

a couple of 300 miles circles in Texas.
http://maps.google.com/maps/api/stat..." border="0"/>

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Do keep in mind for competitive teams, districts means 3 events before 1/2 worlds. The 3rd being district championships which will require significant travel for some teams. But then 1/2 worlds will be a local event if you are a mid-east Texas team.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

There is no requirement that a team actually compete at both district events that their entrance fee allows them to. Those teams who choose not to are still getting a better deal robot time per dollar compared to those in a regional.

I understand that those same 1 and done teams lost the ability to qualify for the super regionals in Houston/St Louis/Detroit but generally(giant assumption but not too far off) 1 and done teams don't qualify for those events anyways.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

This statement confuses me greatly. How is 2 days of competition greater than 3? Sure, we get fewer qualification matches, but more practice matches. Heck, there have been years when my team has played in a dozen practice matches at a single event!

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Because you get out of bag time at your own facility with access to so much more than you have at a practice day. Add in there is less stress as you don't have a LRI breathing down your neck to get inspected or other teams in your pits bothering you with useless questions like "how many wheels does your robot have?".

Also there is practice time on load in night. If you are at a place where you get inspected fast you get as much practice as you could want.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Comparing regional and districts is really an apples to oranges thing. Having done both. The stress level are about the same but for different reasons. You get more plays at district, but less time to work on the robot. Rather or not you get practice on a district load in day depends on if the field is built. Regionals are more likely to be attended by big name sponsors that districts. You are likely to meet and interact with teams outside your area than with districts. If you are seriously competing for EI or Chairmans, two regionals are better than districts. To be honest both models have things that are better. I really have not decided which I like better.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Having gone from regionals to districts and now back to regionals, I can confirm that the district method makes it way easier to work on your robot. The six hours of unbag time is better than it sounds, because you can plan everything out nicely ahead of time. Not to mention load in night is a couple hours too.

If you want to see how greatly that difference in time improves teams, look no further than how much better New England has gotten over the last few years (or any other district really).

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

Agreed I have done the same transition.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

This is not a universally true statement. Many events have rather limited practice available on load-in night, and are primarily concerned with making sure teams connect to the field. There's no requirement that events run practice matches at all on load-in night. No teams should ever head into a district event with the expectation of more than one practice match.

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

You are always welcome here in ATX. If you have in ever in town, just get in touch.

Lots of graduations here in Austin this week for the area. My school finished last week (lucky for us).

Re: Districts in Texas proposal sent to FIRST
 

I don't think the only issue is money. The process of getting mentors to travel, volunteers (if teams are forced to send X many volunteers), putting students up in hotels for multiple weekends, etc.. I feel is as much of a burden as the cost of travel.

Granted, many of the teams in Texas already travel least once every season as it is and I'm sure the committee has taken into account the population density of the teams.

I think I know of at least one Texas team that will travel out of state regardless of districts :)