Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I assume Adam is ignorant to the financial situation of your greater Toronto area school considering he lives in California. The variables surrounding the capacity to raise an additional $2500 over the course of the year for Adam's program may be easier than where you live. I'm not going to pretend if it is or not because I live in Virginia.

I also would be remiss to point out that I am not aware of many people in the FRC community that believes a team can operate with under $7500 of revenue in the first place. I hope that this is not an illusion that people are telling new and potential teams. Most teams in the United States receive money for their programs with a large amount of corporate sponsorship because of the high coasts of participating in FRC.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

In reverse order:
c) Sounds like this applies to district champs (what you seem to be calling regionals) - TDSB offers an additional 1500 CAD toward that event.
b) very well could apply to district champs as well.
a) You are however more likely (less surprised) to qualify for district champs compared to champs.

Perhaps if the team expects to qualify for district champs, now would be a good time to increase annual fundraising goals.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I am not the poster in question but #5699 is based out of Forest Hill Collegiate Institute, a school located in the eponymous neighborhood Forest Hill in the north side of Toronto. There are two District Events and the DCMP within what Google estimates to be an hour drive.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

You can compete at Waterloo, Ryerson, Durham College, Hershey Center (District Champs) with only a school bus driving back and forth. We almost always do that. According to FIRST Canada there is also an additional event in the works that will be in the GTA.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

It cost $2 per student to take the subway to the event downtown. No bus rental, and the robot goes in my car. A rush hour drive to Mississauga, Hamilton or Oshawa to arrive by 8am is well over an hour each way. You are correct though, it may be possible to avoid the need for a hotel, but I have not looked into these details yet. It is likely more expensive to go out of town and certainly more complicated logistically. I did not intend to overexaggerate the added burden of the new model for us. The most prohibitive part is the added cost of registration without a doubt.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

In the US, the team registration cost is the same for teams in the regional and district system ($5000 USD). It is possible that your woes are due to the weak Canadian dollar and TDSB reallocating where their contribution goes.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Why not raise funds specifically for your district championship event, should you qualify?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I wish other school boards would give funding assistance like TDSB does. Maybe we should approach our board and say "why not here too?"

We will be doing our own fundraising, sponsorship, and collecting student fees, to cover our ~$7500 CAD cost for the two district events, and the additional ~$3000 CAD to go to district champs should we qualify. The way we see it, 2 district events + district champs (for a total of 3 competitions) is about the same price as it was to go to two regionals before. Actually slightly less given the current CAD vs USD. Granted this isn't factoring the extra transportation/hotel cost for the third competition.

(And if we are fortunate enough to qualify for Champs -- that would be our fourth competition event -- I'm sure we could do additional fundraising!)

Students who go to competitions are responsible for covering their share of the hotel and transportation costs. We drive down in parent-driven cars and stay in a hotel. I wish taking the subway was a possibility!

We are getting pretty good at doing bottle drives. They are easy to organize, and using a public drop-off spot gives additional exposure. Each time we do one we can net $800-1000. We have a lot of other ideas for fundraisers, but this is a staple.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Yes you should, I doubt that the TDSB just decided to start funding teams w/o someone asking. Connect with other teams in your district, find out the right person on the school district to approach and give it a shot.

Or bypass your local school board and go right to the provincial government.

Our state level school administration has grants for FIRST teams and that was all started by a team heading to the capitol and talking to the law makers and the office of the superintendent of public instruction.

The worst that happens is they tell you no, the best that happens is that your team in others in your area get funding.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

In terms of the Provincial Government, FIRST Canada is already supported by the Ontario Ministry of Education as a platinum sponsor, providing assistance to events and teams. The incredible growth that FIRST has seen in Ontario for the past few years would not have been possible without this level of government support.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I think this may be where people are getting confused. In the States two District competitions are the same cost $5,000 USD as one Regional competition. So people see your difficulty as "only needing to raise whatever isn't covered by TDSB". For teams without a TDSB to support them, we typically have to raise $5,000 plus robot costs, travel, team expenses each year. Perhaps if you explained how your situation differs from that it would help people to understand. Is it only the difference between what TDSB provides and the total cost?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

It may be that this is a good opportunity to reevaluate your funding model. As a team with zero school board support, we, like 2706 and nearly every other FRC team, have to somehow generate tens of thousands of dollars each year. As a largely rural team from a community of 1200 you can imagine the difficulties.

Reach out to other teams to see how they do it. Now is the perfect time to be seeking funding. I suggest starting with local service groups like Rotary, Legions, Lions, etc. Not only do they support initiaitives like this that serve youth, doing the presentation gives your team members incredibly valuable public speaking practice.

Local industry is another great opportunity.
One benefit we found of having industry sponsors is that once you get them onboard and they see the value of yhe program they start to hire your students or provide coop or internship opportunities.

Get parents on board to lead up the fundraising efforts so your workload doesn't increase.

Once your community starts to see the value of the program, they will be incredibly supportive.

And if something were to happen to your TDSB funding you wouldn't be left without a program.

As for a second district event...Head north on the 400 (rush hour is going the opposite way) and come join us at Georgian College in Barrie!

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Disappointing indeed. I can perfectly understand how some little teams are going to benefit from this, due to the fact that their events are easily accessible. For teams like mine, our budget will have to nearly double to accommodate traveling to two events.

It's deeply saddening that FIRST Canada has (seemingly) thrown their cares about less powerful teams to the wind to fit in with places like Michigan and Indiana. Although I've never attended, I'm sure that districts are awesome; but to many teams in Ontario, they're completely unsustainable.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average. That's a huge cost savings for Ontario teams. Also, a radical increase in the amount of plays teams will be getting. This means teams will have more chances to showcase and compete with robots, while also having more opportunities to learn and iterate. I do feel sympathy for the teams from remote areas who have incredible travel hardships to deal with. But hopefully FIRST Canada and our community can come up with solutions to help these teams be sustainable in our new model.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

FRC Team 4732 attended the Greater Toronto East Regional last year and played 10 matches. The Greater Toronto East Regional site is now hosting a district event. Each district event guarantees 12 matches.

Your team is welcome to only attend one district event and get an experience that is likely very similar to the one you experienced last year, but with two more matches and 6 hours of bag time. By most metrics, you are getting more value out of the exact same event in the 2017 season that you did in the 2016 season.

On top of that, you also have the option to go to a second event at no additional registration cost. I do encourage all teams to go to events that they have essentially already paid for, especially since you will be allotted 6 hours of bag time between your first and second event and 12 additional matches. However, I don't expect Shawn Lim or any other staff member of FIRST Canada to put a gun to your head and show up for the second event.

I do understand that if you approach the the change from regionals to districts as a system that provides a $4000+ barrier between you and one of the postseason expos, you might be upset. However, the chances of merit qualifying off of one event hovers around 5%.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I don't think anyone's arguing that District registration fees aren't a better value than regionals, just that in the particular case of Ontario the total cost for initial registration will be higher with districts than it is with the current regional system.

When most regions move to districts, they maintain the standard registration fee associated with the previous regional system (~$5000). Out of curiosity, what was the rational for Ontario to raise the price beyond that? IMO it makes it much easier to sell districts if the only additional cost is travel expenses due to attending an additional event (or an overall cost savings if your team previously went to 2 events anyways).

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

The cost to register last year was $5000 USD for one regional. (And unfortunately last November when our fees were due our dollar was at its worst in a long time against the USD, at about 70 cents.)

The cost to register for Ontario districts is said to be "around $7500 CAD". This is a bit more than $5000 USD converted to Canadian funds at today's rates (which would sit closer to $6500). We will be paying in Canadian dollars and FIRST Canada will assume any risk of fluctuations in the currency.

So, either they've made a slight increase to absorb some of the risk and expense, or the $7500 figure will be adjusted to account for the actual conversion rate closer to the time fees are due. They've said to expect some variance and that $7500 is not a hard figure, so maybe this is much ado over nothing?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

You know, there's really nothing like seeing someone take an overall cost increase and sell it as a cost savings. From my point of view, there's a cost increase of $33,500 CAD in registration fees. I think it would be more fair to say that the cost of registration for a second play has dramatically decreased, but that second play is now mandatory. Before you had around 60 teams go for a second play (I don't know how many may have played more than 2, but lets assume none did for a minute), which means 77 teams did not go for a second play.

My question for those 77 teams is... why not? Was is registration cost alone? Total cost including travel? Time out of school/work? Lack of dedication/desire? For those 77 teams, does this change in pricing structure and event locations eliminate their reason for not attending two events, or cause them more headaches than they previously had?

The simple fact is, a change like this does make competition cheaper for some teams... but it also makes it more expensive for others. Are those others prepared for the additional fundraising needed?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Not accounting for the fact that FIRST Canada has said that the $7500 fee is approximation, and could be lower to account for exchange rates this fall, a $33,500 increase divided by 137 Ontario teams would work out to an increase of $244 per team.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

But unfortunately the math really isn't that simple. Teams that attended multiple regionals previously shouldered much more of the burden willingly, while now those teams that didn't still have to pay an increased fee, much more than $244. It doesn't change the fact that there are 77 teams that now are being forced to pay for and attend two events. And while the comparison that's been posted of registration costs is nice, it does not take into account the total cost encountered per team for this change (additional travel costs, time out of school/work, for example).

CD is overrun with teams that regularly attend multiple events, and underrepresented by teams that struggle to attend one. I'm wondering, with all the different areas going to districts, has anyone done an analysis of teams that drop out the first year or two after the transition?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Teams aren't forced to attend their second event. There are a small percentage of teams in districts that do only attend one event.

Considering the US registration fee is the same for districts and regionals, I'm pretty sure that the increase in Canadian registration fees are due to factors other than the system switch. Of course we can't say this for sure without information from somebody on FIRST Canada staff.

I will say (and from what I've seen, many of the people who support districts also support this opinion) that teams who struggle to attend one event (and/or struggle to field a robot) would often be better served by switching to a program with lower barriers to entry (FTC/VEX) as they're missing out on a significant part of the experience (being able to compete, iterate, and compete again).

I concur with the need for analysis though. Always better to make informed decisions.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Yes, I hope this is truly going to be a net positive for Ontario.

One big assumption I'm making is that this "around $7500 CAD" vs $5000 USD will resolve such that the costs work out to be the same - as has been the case for the US districts.

If so, then for many teams, there is either a positive impact or no impact.

If you already paid for and attended two Ontario regionals, then you can go to the same two events, but you've effectively only paid for one. Two events for the price of one.

If you only attended one Ontario regional, either due to cost or travel distance, you can still go to the same event for the same cost, and not attend a second district event. One event for the price of one. So you don't gain anything but you didn't lose anything either.

If you are a "top 60" Ontario team, then you will need to come up with "around $3000" on top of the "around $7500" to attend district champs, plus the added trip costs. However, if you were a team that previously attended two regionals anyway, then this added cost is still less than what you paid last year (minus the cost of a third trip) so you're getting 3 events for the price of 2.

Where it will hurt is a "top 60" team that only went to one regional last year, who will now be expected to pay for a trip to district championships, or forego their spot.

Where it will also hurt is any Ontario team that typically did not attend Ontario regionals due to distance and instead went to a regional elsewhere (say NY state). They will not have the option to do so this year. I do feel for those teams. We are kind of in that spot since Ottawa is closer to Montreal than it is Toronto. We were seriously considering going to the Montreal regional next year but that is no longer an option (unless we went after two district events).

Any World Champs expenses remain unchanged on top of all these competition expenses.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Mandatory second play? If a coach doesn't want to go to a second event, are the board members of FIRST Canada going to put a horse head in their bed? I didn't see that in the letter at all.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

For discussion's sake:

136 teams competed in 2016 (1 showing as registered but didn't compete)
73 attended 1 regional
53 attended 2 regionals
10 attended 3 regionals

30 attended World Champs
8 attended 1 regional (11.0% yield)
16 attended 2 regionals (30.2% yield)
6 attended 3 regionals (60.0% yield)

Of the 8 single event teams, 5 qualified via RAS. The others were 3rd pick event winners (2 from the same event - via a backup being called).

As mentioned - if you only want to attend one event - you'll be able to continue as before. Most Ontario events were small to begin with, so you'll barely notice the difference.

Yes - there's no single event route to qualify for World Champs, but single event teams are unlikely to qualify under the current system. Last year only 3 out of the 65 veteran single event teams qualified for WCMP. You probably have a better shot via the waitlist.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

If a team is complaining about now "having" to attend multiple events because it is more expensive and at the same time complaining that they can't qualify for the championship from a single event they need to look at their priorities. If a team can't afford to attend a second district event they can't afford to go to the championship.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I would love to see this data as well. Anecdotally as a member of a struggling one regional team, having two district events to compete & improve has worked wonders for our sustainability. I believe that was part of the theory behind the District model.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I don't know if I'd make such a generalized blanket statement. Often times there are grants and sponsors who automatically pay additional funding for FRC teams who qualify for Championship. We had two different sponsors kick us extra cash last year based on us qualifying for the FRC Championship. Similarly, it's a lot easier to raise funds in general with a tangible and easily translated objective like "Help Canada High Robotics Team get to the Championship!"

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

You mean like "Help Canada High Robotics get to their second event!" or "Help Canada High Robotics get to their District Championship!".

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

The latter definitely plays, but I'm unsure if the former has the same appeal to outsiders.

My general point is that there does exist a subset of teams that can attend a local event and the occasional FRC Championship when they qualify, but who may struggle to attend additional travel events outside of those without changes to their funding model. I'm not arguing those teams have to be catered to, but simply stating they do exist.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

23,500 CAD, though your point stands.

It's a relatively small price increase (~$200 per team) for a huge gain in playing time, event count, season length, that kind of stuff. Granted this increase in price is probably not distributed equally.

I think everyone agrees about the positives. Some argue that its easily worth the marginal price increase. Others disagree.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I'd venture to say it's similar to PNW's financial arrangement. FIRST tells FIRST Canada what they need in "participation fees" to cover the revenue they're counting on from Ontario normally (under regional system), or something similar (FIRST has a number of full time employees and support services they provide, as well as, you know, the game). Then it's up to FIRST Canada to raise money, collect registration fees, etc. to cover both this fee to FIRST and their own operating costs. In this way teams pay to their local district organizer and don't need to do a transaction with FIRST, which would also facilitate payment in CAD as mentioned. The higher fee is likely a result of how FIRST Canada is able to split their costs between donor support and the teams.

I could be totally off though.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

You don't have to be argued whether or not they should be catered to because they are via the waitlist.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Getting a slot via the wait list doesn't help if you cannot afford to go. The wait list caters to teams that don't otherwise qualify. It doesn't take into account funding specifically. The core pillars of First is to make sure the program is diverse and affordable. I wouldn't call it catering to the low resource teams, but implied in there finding a way to make it affordable.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I'm confused; are you responding to me within the context of the discussion or are you just pointing out something incredibly obvious for personal entertainment?

Is the Championship Event supposed to be catering to low-resource teams ie making it free or something? The idea that I was sorta playing off of Sean is that the waitlist can be used as a tool between the two postseason events for low resource teams to save up money and go to these events when they are prepared financially.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

What does the wait list have to do with discussions of sustainable funding when it comes to district registration fees? The "catering to" comment was in regards to how Ontario structures its registration process.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I am quite surprised at the direction this discussion has gone.

I am not sure how it is valuable to mathematically determine the overall additional cost to "one-event teams" distributed over all participating teams to imply that I am taking a hit of a few hundred dollars.

I don't think I could have been more clear earlier with my numbers, but I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.

In the regional model it cost $5000 USD to play once and potentially qualify for worlds.

The Toronto District School Board saw the deep rooted value in this remarkable program and invested heavily in getting more teams to be able to participate. They agreed to pay the full $5000 USD (~$6400 CAD) registration fee for every team for a single annual event. Rookie grants from FIRST easily cover your first two years of operating costs (and it can be stretched if you are careful). The program has exploded. Huge numbers of new teams have joined including mine. My students lives were transformed as was my school community and we have connected with so many other schools and students in the FIRST community. The foreseeable future meant that I could participate in FIRST with an annual operating cost of ~$2000 and so could any school in the city. I do a lot more than just run a robotics club, but this seemed well worth it to me. Many other teams, I'm sure, would reach the same conclusion, and many more young people in Toronto could play. Who won from this arrangement? STEM and Education.

Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).

Here is where the math is not at all complicated but many people seem to be misunderstanding me. This means that I now need to pay ~$2500 CAD to register for my 2 district events. That is an increase from $0 to $2500 CAD. That is more than double my previous operating cost. If I am in the top 60 teams in Ontario, I pay another $1500 CAD.

The previous model allowed more teams in Toronto to play with less money and less time commitment. I thought I had signed up for a program centered around spreading STEM education. Apparently it seems very obvious to the majority of posters here that the benefits of more rounds of play for better value, the opportunity to iterate between events, and cost savings for large scale competitive teams who already attend multiple events, outweighs the benefits of setting a lower bar for all to participate. The change from Regionals to Districts will provide lots of benefits. The main added cost is that it costs Toronto teams between $2500 - $4000 more just to play, and many more hours and/or people to supervise and plan. For non-Toronto teams, they too need to spend at least $1000 CAD more than in the past and either attend two events or quit after one regardless of your team's performance.

If you want to play more, iterate, or increase your odds of winning, then to me it is reasonable that you need to pay more for those added experiences. If you want to spread STEM and get kids excited about building robots in every school that you possibly can, then set the financial and time commitment bar as low as possible to play and work hard at establishing publicly funded partnerships like the TDSB's model for Toronto based teams everywhere.

I am pretty new to FIRST, but I can already clearly see that when people participate in this program they are never the same after. This is hands down the best educational experience I have ever offered to students. Public educational institutions will eventually get on board and fund what they can if we ask. What I would ask in return is that FIRST Canada maintains their model that keeps total cost down. Any increase is too much if you ask me, regardless of the added benefits. The benefits of the program as it was are far more than enough to warrant more participation.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

That actually was very helpful in understanding the discrepancy in the "standard" experience switching to districts several people have described. I think I understand your frustration and feeling of being "priced out of the program, but I don't think FIRST is the culprit, at least not directly.

There seem to be a confluence of factors that has increased your participation costs, of which several were not necessarily experienced by other district teams in their transition. I'll attempt to highlight them individually, per my understanding.

As far as FIRST is concerned, registration is $5000 USD for either 1 regional or 2 district events. From the origin point, the registration cost is the same.

Using recent exchange rates, this was approx. $6400 CAD.
FIRST Canada seems to have gotten approval for doing direct payments rather than paying and converting to USD. In doing so, they set the initial registration cost higher, at $7500 CAD, estimated. This increase is, as far as I can tell, somewhat unique to the Ontario district switch, related to the next point.

The district championship registration is typically set at $4000 USD, which using the same exchange rate of 1.28 would convert to $5120 CAD. Teams attending the Ontario District Championship are saving $2120 CAD compared to a US district team. This "benefit" does not factor in to the 78 teams who will not compete in the Ontario DC.

The last bit I'll cover is what I think is causing the most heartburn, and also isn't experienced by a significant number of teams. The TDSB has been paying your full initial registration cost, but now has reduced that amount so they can also partially fund teams who are able to advance to the district championship. Most teams have to fund raise through sponorships, external grants, student fees, bake sales, etc. While I understand not every one of these is feasible for every team, the experience of scraping together those funds -- being entrepreneurial -- is part of the FIRST experience.

I wish you and your team the best of luck in continuing. I do share your enthusiasm for the program and hope you and other teams in your situation don't fold because of this transition.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I do believe your numbers are correct (as is your terminology--that is likely what threw a lot of us off previously).

And I actually think that your operating cost is now $4500 CAD--add in your current costs to the registration fee. I'll assume that--for a couple of years or so--you don't attend the DCMP (there's nothing saying that invite = attendance).

At current rates, that's about 3500 USD. That could be raised fairly easily by some of the team's I've been on--one big fundraiser and a couple of smaller ones would do it--but others would struggle.

I think it's a manageable increase to deal with, at least while you build a deeper sponsor base. Phase 1: Contact current sponsors and advise them of your situation ("We are changing playing models next year, we'll be doing two events, it's going to cost us more") and ask them for a modest increase to help. Phase 2: Look for new sponsors. Phase 3: Fundraisers (done alongside Phase 2). Phase 4: Any family members want to help out?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

THANK YOU for these two posts. I was having trouble figuring out where the heck some of the numbers and concerns were originating from regarding expenses and what TDSB would pay for. In particular, that TDSB would not in fact be covering the entire initial registration (when it had sounded like they would only pay for half of it to cover 1 district event ie $2500USD).

As an outsider looking in, I might understand districts, but Ontario and Toronto are not wholly familiar.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

This is great! This is not a unique occurrence however. Rookie grant programs are designed to infuse cash immeadiately into potential new programs for a short period of time. A really easy place to look at is Texas, who has seen both sides of this strategy. Through what I believe you could call 4 different initiatives on the part of existing FIRST grants, JCPenney, Texas Workforce Commission, and the Texas High School Project (the last two might be connected?) 41 new rookies were started for the 2011 season. From 2010 to 2011, Texas went from 104 to 144 teams. From 2011 to 2016, Texas has added 112 rookie numbers while going from 144 to... 141 teams.

The rookie grant program does great things. It gets people who have no idea what FIRST is get excited about FIRST. That is awesome! However, the global attrition rate means that not all teams are successful long term (the Texas example is very extreme). There is data that was recently posted to this website under CD-Media that you can view to learn more. Why do teams fold? There are a LOT of reasons. Studies have been done globally and locally. Indiana in the past has publicized the reason individual teams folded (anonymously). A very broad reason that teams fold? FRC is hard as hell to sustain because resources of the physical, human, and financial variety seem like they are always vaporizing in front of your eyes.

I'm going to be very blunt here and say that if you thought $2000 was going to sustain an FRC team year after year, even after registration fees, you are wildly unprepared to transition the team from start-up to sustainable and in pretty much every other place in North America, you would not be fielding an FRC team next year. How do I know this? I was faced with a near-identical problem in my junior year of high school. We needed to raise a lot of cash fast to keep the program viable. I am here today because we did. We went through grant programs, brought in new corporate sponsors, and rechartered the team to get existing sponsors to buy in to our idea of where we wanted to take our program and support it at a higher level.

If someone within the community or on staff told you that an FRC team can be sustained with effectively $7000 in revenue, they have sold you a lie and they need to be stopped. Depending on physical resources, team goals, and other variables, a sustainable team probably would need about $13k USD year over year just for registration parts, tool replacements, upgrades, and maintenance, apparel, and travel.

Texas teams had this problem when the TWC/THSP/JCP money went poof. I don't remember them having much of a warning.

Marginally less money than now, but I believe that there is no more expensive STEM program in North America besides FRC. That has been true for as long as I have been a part of it. You have signed up for a program that has a self set mission to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." This has not changed or been negatively affected solely by the Toronto shifting to districts.

In terms of making FRC a better program, yes. You have it nailed squarely on the head, with one glaring exception.

FRC Team 1137, Rocket Sauce, is based out of Mathews High School from Mathews County, VA. The town has a population that is solidly under 9000. They are not the richest team in the state. I will link you to their Blue Alliance profile from their rookie year in 2003. Here, you can see all of the matches they have played. You will notice 2 things about the team's participation in FIRST from its founding through 2015. The team made it to semifinals once, and was more likely to not make eliminations than make them. They never went to more than one regional. They only ever went to championships when they could afford it and get a spot on the waitlist.

Here is their profile for 2016.

There was no big change for this program besides the introduction of the district system into the region. Through this initiative, 1137 was able to make it to the elimination rounds at all 3 of their events. You will also notice that after making it to semifinals at their first event, they went back, made some changes to their machine, and made finals at their second event.

This is not a large-scale competitive team. This is also not a team that needed the bar to be lowered for them. They needed some fuel for their jetpack and they got it.

The added hours and people are not unique to Ontario's shift to the district model. However, people in Ontario have already decided to let this happen. There are a lot of people in the province who are very passionate about FIRST and want to pull teams up and have a better experience in FRC.

Or you can just do the VEX Robotics Competition. If I understand it correctly, the goals of your program is to get kids excited about building robots with the qualifications of doing it a low time commitment at a low cost. That is VRC. That is not FRC. That has not been FRC. As far as I know, that will not be FRC for the immediate future. It costs zero dollars to register a VEX team if I remember correctly. That is a very low bar for entry. It operates year round, not within the tight confines of our 6+10 week season. That is a flexible and potentially very low time commitment.

I do not participate in any other robotics program besides FRC. I never have, and I probably never will, for various reasons. I am not employed by anyone who could in any way, shape or form benefit from telling you this. I love FRC. I love my team. I want there to be as many successful FRC teams as possible. I see these successful teams as ones who become sustainable agents of change in their community by standing on the shoulders of giants in the FRC community (hall of fame teams) to chart their own path, learn from their experiences, and develop their own identity. I believe the regional model long term will not support those kinds of teams from coming into being on top of who we already have in the program.

FRC is bar none, without question, with zero necessary qualifiers or hesitation THE BEST POSSIBLE PROGRAM YOU CAN BE IN. People whine and moan over stuff that they disagree with in the sport to varying levels of merit but it is still the best. There is no equal. It is great to know that you see it this way. All I can promise you is this: if you can get the money to participate in the district system in Ontario, you will love the program even more. Of the 40 returning members to 422 for the 2016 season, zero preferred the regional model to the district model when we surveyed them. ZERO. That is not me telling you my opinion, but me informing you of theirs. They had an opportunity to grow as a team and become a better program over the course of a season. It was worth every penny.

FIRST Canada is providing the teams of Ontario an opportunity to get more out of FIRST. Whether those teams get more out of FIRST or just get out of FIRST is up to them.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I love this example, even spent time checking them out on TBA! Its crazy this same team attended 4 events in one year, which is equivalent to their past 4 years combined.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

They also played over 50 matches this year. That's more than their last 5 years COMBINED! It's really interesting how districts seem to have raised this team to the next level.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

This is like saying this is the best thing ever but i only want to do it once and not have more chances in a year for the students to enjoy and learn from it because you and the team don't want to do any work or give effort in raising money from sponsors. I think giving the team more opportunities is better than complaining about raising money for a better experience. Also you have it better cause TDSB is helping you out, imagine all the teams who have to raise money themselves and travel long distances and they do it year after year. SO THE BIG THING TO GET OUT OF THIS IS THAT IT IS POSSIBLE WITH EFFORT AND 2 IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN 1.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

My first impression was "woah! McMaster Carr has a university?"

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Though it may not be a popular opinion, or even one that you are interested in, I will say that if $2,500 is more than double your previous operating cost then FRC probably isn't the most effective program for your students even with the TDSB contribution. Vex or FTC offer a much broader experience for students at that price point

Still that's certainly no reason to "give up" if you and your students are dedicated to building an effective program. But the way you seem to be viewing the need to raise around $1,250 I might recommend going another route where your money will go further.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Good question!

With almost 1/2 of FRC in or moving to districts, anyone care to calculate district transition team attrition rates versus the global annual average?

-Mike

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

No, I've been saying that for years. Independent of districts.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I think FIRST decided that FRC wasn't for everyone when they decided to make the recommended ages for FTC overlap with FRC.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Nope, I'll agree with Andrew. This is the true cost of FRC in general. It is a massively expensive program that gives a HUGE amount of value assuming you can invest the time, people, and money. On the low end, the same amount of investment in VRC or FTC give a much higher return than it would in FRC.

And like I said, this difference does NOT mean that his team needs to abandon FRC. It just means that they will need to scale up their investment to a level similar to other FRC teams.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

FRC is the wrong program for many people, schools, and communities. It is the wrong program when an area does not have the people, money, or time to participate in an effective manner. Fortunately there are other programs out there that are also fantastic robotics experiences such as FTC or VEX. It makes sense, when lacking the mentors, money, or time, to move to a different program in order to better serve the interests of a community.

I think that in many cases it's better to have a strong FTC or VEX program than a struggling FRC program. When a team is having problems, everything suffers-- it damages the relationships with schools and local companies, it makes it extremely hard to establish productive and valuable mentor-student relationships. And when a team fails, it makes it even harder for us to get future students in that school access to robotics programs.

So yes, it is a "cost" or moving to districts that we may lose some FRC teams. But done responsibly, moving to districts may be a good opportunity to create strong FTC or VEX programs that may one day have the resources to return to FRC.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I'll agree with the sentiment that not every school is well suited to FRC, and that some existing teams may do better in a less intensive program like FTC, and that it may be best served to coach those schools towards the program that fits them the best.

But should we just price the teams out by changing the program in a way that ultimately increases their costs past their sustainable level? Are these teams actually being moved into another program, or are they just dying as a result of the transition to districts? Has there been any documentation, at all, on how the different districts have handled this issue?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I've been following this discussion and would like to clarify the district system from our team's perspective. First a little background, we are currently entering our 6th season and couldn't be happier with the district system.

Our first year we attended 1 event and won RAS and were able to attend CMP. Another team helped us with logistics and transportation otherwise we may not have gone. This season we spent $5K for the regional and $5K for CMP. Our total operating budget for this year was nearly $50K

Our second year we attended 2 events and did not qualify to move on to CMP. We spent $5k for each event and had a total operating budget of about $35K

In our third season we moved to the district system and were excited to find out that we now get to attend 2 events for the same $5K and as many additional events that we could go to for $1K each so we signed up for three district events. We then qualified to attend the District CMP and attended which was an additional $4K. We did very well and were picked to be on the eventual winning alliance and were invited to attend CMP which cost another $5. Our total operating budget for this season was just under $50K

In our forth and fifth seasons we attended 3 events each year and District CMP for a total cost of $10K and an operating budget of about $35K

From a cost perspective our first and third years were the most expensive but we attended 2 events the first year and 5 events the third year for the same amount of money. Our second, fourth and fifth years were the least expensive but we still attended 4 events under the district model vs. 2 under the regional system.

As others have pointed out, I cannot understand how any FRC team could expect to grow/survive let alone just function on less than $10-$15K per year for a budget. We were told when the team was formed that we would need to find grants, sponsorships and do fundraising if the team was going to survive. We do not get any financial support from our school, town or state to fund our program, we are totally self supporting. We are fortunate to have two corporate/foundation sponsorships that we cherish very much that provide nearly 1/2 of our annual budget every year but we constantly discuss what we would do if we lost either one. One way we do that is to save money when ever we can. We have enough money saved at this point that we could survive for 1-2 years with some fundraising but we are always looking for and applying for grants and scholarships.

We attended an off season event in Yonkers, NY a couple weeks ago and were shocked by the differences between us being in a district system and all the other teams that are in a regional system. For us it was our 6th event, for all the others it was either their 2nd or 3rd. All we heard all day was comments about our robot not breaking and being very refined. All the teams wanted to find out more about the district system and most if not all wished that NY would go to a district model after playing with and talking to us.

In a nutshell:
Regional model
$5K per event - 6 teams advance to CMP out of 55-70 teams

District model
$5K for 2 events to qualify for point to advance to the district CMP
$1K for additional district events in your district or other districts
$4K for district CMP if you qualify - 32+/- teams advance to CMP

If you normally attend 2 events under the district model you spend $10K

For $5K you get 2 events, for $6K you get 3 events and for $10 you get 4 events if you qualify for district CMP. If you go to district CMP you have roughly and 50/50 chance of going to CMP.

In our team's opinion, we would not go back to the regional model if given the choice. We get more "bang for the buck" now and our kids have way more fun interacting with other students than they ever did.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I don't think there have been enough cases of teams dropping out due to the transition to districts to warrant any documentation or response from the DPC's, but I don't have any hard numbers on me. I think if it was a big enough issue, we'd hear about it. As long as events are spread out through the region to match population distribution, and the dates don't conflict with other events (I'm looking at you, Georgia...), the transition should be simple enough for most teams.

Also, I'm going to be blunt and say that any team that can't handle the transition to districts was never going to be sustainable in the long run anyway.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I don't see how districts are pricing teams out of FRC. Ignoring the CAD/USD exchange rate issues - district registration is the exact same cost as a single regional. You play more matches, and the events are likely closer to you. You then get a bonus 2nd event for free if you so choose. The only valid negatives are the lack of "show", and geographic isolationism.

Districts do require an additional layer of competition before the half champs level, but this only applies to teams who attend a single regional event, and manage to qualify directly at that event. As my previous post showed for Ontario - there aren't many of those.

I recompiled the numbers for regional model teams in 2016. I excluded rookie teams (259 teams) and everyone except for US and Canadian teams (154 teams).

There were 1535 veteran regional model teams that met that criteria.

899 teams attended a single regional event: (28.7% of all FRC teams)
858 did not attend the world championship
41 did attend the world championship (4.6%)

636 teams attended 2 or more regional events: (20.3% of all FRC teams)
414 did not attend the world championship
222 did attend the world championship (34.9%)

Single event teams quite simply aren't attending the world championship, and can play in as few as 8 official matches before their season ends - that doesn't seem very sustainable or inspirational to me.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I figured id talk a bit about this metric
To start at the event there were 13 teams
2 of them are in the District system
4055 being one of them was ranked #1 and this was their 6th event
the other was 4361 who was ranked 10th and this was their 3rd event

Out of the NY (non-district teams)
rank #2 - 4122 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #3 3419 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs
rank #4 2869 (2nd event) Attended 1`regional
rank #5 335 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #6 5943 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #7 371 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #8 1880 (3rd event) Attended 2 regionals
rank #9 333 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #11 4528 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #12 5123 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #13 369 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional

It also should be mentioned 4122 and 333 ended up winning the event with both teams having this as their 4th event

So, aside from a few anomaly's it is pretty clear events make teams better

and lets look at some numbers
4055 paid $10,000 for their 4 official events
4122, 3419, and 333 paid $13,000 for their 3 official events If those teams wanted an extra event before champs they would be paying $17,000 for the same amount of events that 4055 got for 10k.

I do not care how quality the event is $7,000 extra is not worth it.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I was refuting your statement that the wait list is to benefit low-resource teams. Your point about the wait list making a championship slot predictable so you can save for it is well made. While I generally try to be helpful and pertinent, there is a component to my own entertainment to this as well. :]

But there is also a yin-yang to this. The core mission of First is to spread STEM. That includes making it affordable to low-resource teams. To have a truly world class top level competition, it is going to be resource hungry, which will make participation by low-resource team difficult.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Ontario is a special case. Typically the cost to single teams does not rise with the move to Districts, regardless of how many events a team attends. The issue in Ontario is the TDSB sponsorship, in which the money given for a team to attend their 2 District events is LESS than the money previously given for that team to attend one regional. Another way to look at this is as a loss of sponsorship, not purely an increase in cost brought on by going District. I think TDSB's change to give a portion of money for District events and a portion for DCMP was smart for the majority of teams, but there is a small minority who it will harm. This is somewhat unavoidable when money allocation changes.

One last comment, and this part is just my opinion. If we accept that transitioning to Districts grants a large improvement to quality for a region (and having just gone District this past year, I certainly believe that) then I am not sure if it is the right choice to avoid Districts in the hopes of keeping struggling teams in FRC. If there were no other comparable programs, or if those other programs demanded the same investment as FRC then I wouldn't be saying this. But holding back a whole region to help a few struggle along doesn't seem right to me when there are so many better options for those struggling. No one is getting a good deal in that scenario.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Yes, having spent some time digesting the last few pages of this discussion, I think the heart of it is the issue between Toronto area teams and the TDSB "sponsorship" they have been receiving. The upcoming change would be like any of us getting word from our sponsor that $1500 would be withheld until we qualified for district championship.

I have to pause here to say that my opinion here is purely my own and not representative of my team.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that the barrier for entry has been so low for so many Toronto area teams. I love that as a result there are so many teams from the Toronto area and that FIRST and FRC are so prominent there. I love meeting students who are excited about FIRST and STEM.

But I have to agree with some of the sentiments posted on the last couple of pages. I'm sorry, but if an increase of $2500 is a show-stopper for your team, then you need to stop and think about how incredily lucky you have been.

We started from scratch this year - literally no money, no tools, no supplies - and we busted our patooties doing fundraisers and hitting the streets looking for sponsors. We targeted $20-40K when we made our preliminary budgets, and we hit our target. It was challenging, but we were rewarded. We found enough sponsors and donations to have a great year. And I'm certainly not patting ourselves on the back here - because thousands of other teams do the exact same thing each and every year.

I've been involved with a few FRC teams in the Ottawa region and we would love to see FRC grow in popularity here, but it's been slow going. It's hard to start new teams, and meanwhile older teams are leaving the program because they find it too difficult to sustain. For a long time I wondered how long it would take, how many teams it would take, before there was enough momentum here for FRC to catch on as big as it has in Toronto.

Now I understand that all your teams had a huge head start. And going forward you will have slightly less of one. While I understand that's disappointing, I hope you can see why I think it's unproductive to be grumbling about it.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Sperkowsky,
Thank you for doing all the math and research I didn't have time to do. Your final comment was basically what we heard from most teams while at the event.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I think this post sums up very clearly what the general sentiment has been from the FIRST community on this one. This program is expensive and hard to grow/sustain, I am lucky that I was sustained by public funds, but welcome to the reality that other teams face who do not have as much public funding. Now deal with it, don't complain about it, or just leave (P.S. I hope you don't leave #sorrynotsorry).

Firstly, I am not running a "struggling team" as has been implied on this forum repeatedly. I am running a relatively small scale, but hard working, competitive team with room to grow. In the regional model we would have required zero private money to operate.

Second, it has been implied that my difficulty in more than doubling my annual budget for future years is reflective of a lack of willingness to do the hard work of being an FRC team. Over the past two years, I have dedicated astronomical amounts of time, energy and passion as all of you have to build this program from nothing. I am a biology teacher with zero engineering background and I have converted my science class and a tiny storage area into a workshop.

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools. In the regional model with the generous public financial backing of the TDSB I could indefinitely run a successful (though maybe not world champion) FRC team on public funds and through grass-roots fund raisers in a sustainable way. I am aware that the overall FIRST program doesn't exist without private sponsorship. It is a compromise I am currently willing to accept in exchange for the unprecedented experience. Developing private partnerships within my own school program is where I draw a firm line. I will continue to work myself to the bone for this team so I can run a STEM project funded with no-strings-attached and I will also continue to lobby public education to recognize the educational return on investment in FIRST. Perhaps rather than you asking me to STOP complaining about added cost, I should ask you to START complaining about lack of public funds if a dedicated team requires heavy private sponsorship to exist. "Greying Jay" implies that his wish for Ottawa's program to expand like Toronto's will come as a result of a higher cost to participate and an increased time commitment.

Third, I believe that we don't just participate in the FRC program, we are helping to build it. It can become whatever we want it to become. Looking backwards and sideways at what works currently and what has worked in the past is valuable, but it is equally valuable to imagine how we want to change this program looking into the future. I know for many people reading this, their response is that they envision a higher proportion of large-scale, competitive teams and more robust programs. For others they may be imagining that the benefits of this program spread as far and as wide as possible to afford more students the opportunity to be transformed by FIRST. Both views have merit, but on some levels these views may find themselves at odds with each other. A program that builds better teams may cost more and require more commitment, but this could also lead to the program becoming more exclusive.

I think we have more than enough fuel to easily sell this program's worth to private sponsors, so why not sell it with equal vigor to our municipal, provincial and federal governments here in Canada. My sense from the discussion on this forum is that more people are concerned about making more WINNING teams rather than making more WORKING teams. I get it... district model = better educational experience and more team growth. But I say again; at what cost? In the US, for the same price you get more FRC. More power to you. Enjoy it. In Toronto, it costs my team and other "one-regional" teams like mine at least double the previous cost (after public funding) to now play two district events. Why not imagine a model like ours of FRC where more teams can run strong, sustainable teams on less than ~$2500 CAD per year. This does not exclude the option to grow into a mega-world-class team (as many here in Canada already have done), but it just costs more to do so.

Finally, what seems to have been forgotten on this forum is that the move to Districts was a CHOICE. The decision was made by FIRST Canada that the district model was right for Ontario. More cost and commitment to participate, but less cost for more value in terms of number of plays and the educational experience for participating teams. This was a choice that makes it harder for public funding to facilitate more universal participation in the long run. I can accept it, and I will do my best to continue to play within the new framework, but I can confidently say that this choice moves in a direction contrary to my personal preference. I wish for this program to reach as many schools as possible for as little money as possible even if it means some degree of dilution to the level of competition. And no, it is definitely NOT because I don't want to do more work.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Here's a cool story with an alternative viewpoint.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I don't know if you're going to get backlash, but you have to realize that your opinion is so different from that of thousands of teams - many of them very local to you - that it's going to be met with confusion more than anything else.

I'm pretty sure the reason why people were assuming you just didn't want to fundraise, work harder, etc. was because they never would have guessed that.

I mean, fine. You're taking a philosophical stand on a personal belief, I get it. I doubt I'll be able to convince you otherwise. But I'm a Canadian educator too who's been doing this for a few years, and I have to say, I've never run across that particular viewpoint as it pertains to FRC. Being an extracurricular activity, I'm willing to accept outside funds to allow a better experience for my students. If suddenly I found myself teaching "Chemistry - brought to you by Pfizer" then I might feel a bit differently, but as far as most of us are concerned, sponsorships for FRC are just part of the game. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (if there are any disadvantages at all).

People have been trying to give you advice, but given the constraints you've created, you've only left yourself with a single option - convince the TDSB to increase their contribution. I wish you luck in your lobbying efforts as I'm sure they'll be beneficial to all TDSB teams, but it would be a shame to lose your team over a problem that does have another solution.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

No one's saying you're too lazy or don't want to put the work in. (If they are, they don't realize how much work it is already to be a lead mentor of any sort for a team).

Can I inquire as to why you don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public school? From my perspective, seeking sponsorships is a great way to reach out to the community, get local business and civic leaders involved, and increase the reach and strength of the program. Also, to what level would this belief hold? If I were to write you a check for $1000, would you accept it? What if 10 relatives of students were to send in $100 each? Like it or not, there just isn't enough public funding for these programs; that's one of the reasons why we are all trying to change the culture. However, to get to that point, we need our communities to get the message and rally behind us.

Michigan has done an excellent job of selling the program's worth to the government leaders. Their first and second year teams all got grants to start up. However, that funding wasn't forever; teams needed to be able to find the same level of funding elsewhere.[citation needed, someone from FiM please comment].

One implied assumption is that a winning team or a successful team is a working team. CD tends to have a bias towards fostering competitive FRC teams; just look at the reaction to the split championship announcement. The argument that many of us see as fundamental to our participation in FIRST is that winning is inspiring, and simple participation in the program isn't enough inspiration; we want our students to continue to compete and do what it takes to win fairly.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I won't try to convince anybody of anything, and I'm certainly not a Canadian educator, but as a former student, the relationships with real corporation meant a lot to me. We had ties into these companies that made us as students feel important in ways my other XCs didn't. Some "real" entity was invested in us, and we would sometimes get opportunities to visit and know local offices, employees, etc. It formed an amazing and valuable perspective on future and "real life" that was a big part of my FRC appreciation and my career trajectory. I don't think it would've turned me off of FRC, but even now it wouldn't have the same spark for me without the private sector relationships. Certainly this is important in the public sector both in and out of the education field as well, but not to the detriment of private community involvement.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Part of FRC is the entrepreneurial side, hence FIRST giving out an Entrepreneurship Award. Even if you don't want to seek out corporate grants, there are plenty of other ways to raise money, such as bake sales, charging small amounts to drive previous robots, raffles, etc. I'm sure other people can list dozens if not hundreds of more ideas. Not only will fundraising increase your build capabilities, it will teach your students skills equal to more valuable than are taught by building the robot itself, such as public speaking, organization and planning, and money management. Community fundraisers also tend to assist with publicity and recruiting along with funds.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

No one ever said 5699 was a struggling program in this thread. In the regional model with the TDSB sponsorship never adjusting, you may have been able to operate without any private funds, but relying 2/3 of an operating budget on a force clearly outside of your control is interesting.

I wish we had more public investment in the FIRST program at our own state and local levels. Our good friends nearby from 1086 recently worked with Virginia's General Assembly to get a bill passed and signed by our governor to grant money to programs that otherwise could not exist without the funds.

I also recognize that FIRST was founded in 1992 when COMPANIES went to SCHOOLS to start their teams. The private-public partnership between FIRST and public schools has existed since the founding of the program.

The entirety of the FIRST kit of parts is donated by private enterprises, with key control system and mechanical equipment coming for free from National Instruments, AndyMark, Innovation First International, and Cross the Road Electronics. These are all for-profit companies that donate an absurd (AN ABSURD) amount of money to FIRST. Not only does FIRST as a program not exist without private partnerships, but unless you are shipping your kit back to Manchester and buying these items yourselves, your robot does not exist without them.

I do find it curious that you must think that teams with private sponsors are suddenly enslaved to the corporation. I don't think that's the case with any teams. You are welcome to maintain your stance that no corporations dare lay a finger on your program, just understand that is not a stance shared by a majority of teams in FIRST. It's also a very insular and restrictive way to approach the FIRST program. Some organizations (ourselves included) use private sponsors to support community initiatives that bring our program to places outside of classrooms. Public money would not be able to support hall-of-fame programs because they do work that costs more money than the public can provide.

You seem to think that competitive teams are the end goal, where in the end sustainability and success are the main goals. I have been looking into attrition rates globally vs large states/provinces vs district systems, and even if you threw out Michigan and the new systems, all districts are experiencing lower attrition than the global average. Creating as many sustainable teams as possible is not a goal that fights between many competitive teams and as many teams as possible, but takes a firm middle.

This is a STEM competition! Using math, I have determined that it is pretty much impossible to create more winning teams unless FIRST starts giving out trophies to everyone who shows up to all of their events or we start creating even more events than the district system even allows. I really don't give a toss if we win. I'd really like to win more/at all, but I don't have to win every event we enter to justify re-entering next year. Operating on $7500 a year does not in many parts of the FRC world lead to even "working teams." Three cheers on apparently being the exception to that rule, but the reality is that teams with little money also likely have little available for them in physical and human resources to make their program sustainable.

The model that costs less is called VRC in Ontario and either VRC or FTC in the States. FRC, VRC, and FTC are all programs that can produce similar educational results. FRC, as the founders of the program will argue, is not a primarily educational program, but a program that is designed to be an agent of change in their communities. The cost to do that has been described with the outlay of the district system's plans.

For the third time, I will reiterate that no gun has been pointed to anyone's head, and it won't be in the future. Whether or not FIRST Canada was right in making their choice has yet to be seen. I wish them the best and expect them to succeed and continue to be one of the best regions in the world for competitive robotics. I also wish you the best in continuing your efforts to maintain an FRC team at your school. It takes a lot of effort to put a team out there year after year without any significant engineering experience and not enough money. It has been worth it for me still and I trust it will be worth it for you.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Canadian Alliance Selections must make you Cringe.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Yeh the NASA teams never end.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I am disappointed in this comment. I believe each team should decide for themselves how they want to be funded and I respect whatever decision is made. If 5699 leadership chooses not to have sponsors from the corporate world, than that is how 5699 shall be run.

I am not going to say it is the right decision, I am not going to say it is an easy decision and I am definitely not going to try to bring that idea to any team I associate with.

To Kleiman and the rest of 5699, you run your team how you feel appropriate. That means that you have to live with the results of your decision and in this case, that means having to find $2500 some way other than corporate support. I know that might sound daunting, but that is the reality you are faced with. I am sure that the people in this thread (and others) would be willing to help you find ways to do this if you go over to the fundraising forum. I know your price was increased, you can either continue to be upset or you can take the challenge and grow your team to be more resourceful. To do this effectively you should create a business plan and involve your students in fundraising. You might even get the KPCB award out of it. I wish you the best of luck.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

The comment is solely meant to draw humor (or humour) to the fact that Canadian Teams like to say some/all of their Private/Corporate sponsors before their Team name during alliance selections.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

As a fellow Canadian who believes strongly that schools should be free of undue corporate influence (a feeling held by people of many nations, I'm sure) I have to say that the corporate sponsors I worked with during my time running our FRC team were not only generous, but also very careful to ensure that they were enabling, as opposed to influencing paths to student success. GMC, in particular, was an examplar of how a corporate sponsor can help improve public education.

It is a small point in a larger discussion, but developing meaningful, supportive partnerships between the team and community is an important part of the FRC experience. I would encourage you to explore how your team can work with your community... the partnership and benefits usually go well beyond the purely financial.

Jason

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

FIM Grant information

$7500 for rookies, $5000 for 2nd year teams, $2500 for older teams. Plus $1500 coach stipends.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Wait, they don't all work that way?

(And yes, some teams go on and on and on... :rolleyes: )

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

By actively preventing relationships with sponsors to form, you're doing a disservice to your team and students. There are thousands of former FIRST students who have careers now because of the great sponsor relationships teams have formed. I personally know a lot of people who had internships or co-ops directly set aside for FIRST students by team sponsors. Why wouldn't we want to help our students and get their foot in the door with a sponsoring company?

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

Kleiman, thank you for your thoughtful responses and for elaborating on this position. I admit that I have been a little bit perplexed by your particular scenario. The thinking was "So they need to raise another $2500... big deal, they could do that in a week or two of phone calling and emailing". Now I understand why that is a tougher problem than it sounded to me.

I admit to being more than a little envious of your previous situation. I always assumed that it was because of your program density - every school wants one because the school next door has one too - and I figured that when you approach a sponsor they must say "oh yes, I've heard of FRC" rather than "huh? robots? you mean like LEGO?". And I already figured competitions were cheaper for you guys since you didn't need to travel and book hotels.

I'm still hoping for a district event to be held closer to us, such as Ottawa or Kingston. Having a local event would greatly reduce logistics and cost for teams in my region, and would also kick start the "hey, I want one too!" sentiment in our schools.

Of course I think it would be absolutely fantastic if our school boards would kick in like TDSB has done. However, truth be told, such a decision wouldn't even help my team, as 2706 is a community driven with no school backing. Our lead mentors aren't teachers or educators, we are engineers and scientists and other professionals.

And I guess that leads to my other point, which is that although I totally understand your point of view on partnerships, I think your team is missing out on a whole other aspect of FRC because of it. One of the biggest differences between FRC and something like FLL or IEEE or any of the smaller scale LEGO competitions is, apart from sheer size, students are participating in an experience that looks and feels like the real engineering workforce. They think about things like strategy and competition, marketing, branding, and communication. They deal with real issues like project management, splitting the workload, supply chain issues (witness the Great Pneumatic Tire Shortage of 2016), version control (which is of course where my team name derives from!) and, yes, they learn to communicate, present, and sell themselves to others. It's the real thing - they talk to real companies, real suppliers, real engineers.

I understand your point about "no strings attached" but I'll just observe that the only "string" we have ever been asked for is a demo: We'll give you money to build a robot, and we want you to come in and show the robot to our employees! That is a fun experience which draws excitement, encourages new students and mentors to join, and encourages students to network and interact with other people. At sponsor demos I step back and watch the students as they talk to curious onlookers. I marvel at the students' ease at answering "so... what does it do?" for the umpteenth time. I watch a student who was super-shy in September comfortably launch into an elevator pitch about FIRST and STEM.

When I was that age, I was a complete wreck when it came to talking to anybody in public, let alone strangers! Not to mention all the other stuff like writing grant applications or sponsor request letters or planning fundraising events. This is a huge skill development opportunity.

I do absolutely agree with you here. That would be a dream come true. I wasn't kidding about approaching the Ottawa school boards. We're going to do our darndest.

I do not think these are mutually exclusive. The focus should be on building long-term, sustainable, working teams, and the more of them there are, the better it is for everyone. "Winning" (and I don't necessarily refer to blue banners and trophies here) will come as a natural progression as teams develop and improve themselves.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

I wouldn't even call that a "string", let alone a string. It is one of the most valuable aspects of FIRST and something that is useful to all team members, not just the ones interested in going into engineering.

Also, this conversation seems to be taking over the thread and it is an interesting discussion that doesn't just apply to Ontario. Maybe a mod should spin this off into a separate thread.

Re: Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017
 

To add this this, the funding is distributed on an "as available" basis, prioritizing newer teams. Meaning that if the funding runs out early (as it did this year) teams either don't get as much or don't get anything at all. This year I believe FiM/Michigan cut the grants that normally payed for teams registrations for the State Championships (and/or possibly also World Championships, though I don't remember which it was) because the program ran out of money due to the large number of teams.

Government funding is great, but it shouldn't be your only funding source if you can avoid it. Don't put all eggs in one basket. ;)