Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I personally do not feel strongly for or against the split champs decision, but many looking at the two champs as glorified super-regionals got me thinking...

As the reasoning behind two champs is to increase inspiration, and to accommodate the growth of FRC, we can come to the logical conclusion that at some point in time, FIRST will have to expand champs again, as FRC continues to grow.

They could expand to three champs, but at that point, I was thinking they could just make 4 super regionals (northeast, southeast, northwest, and southwest?) and bring back a single championship.

I believe it is just a matter of time before something like this happens, and we return to like how it was "in the good old days".

So as this is the dawn of the "2 Champs Era" I figured we should all predict/ discuss the end of this upcoming awkward period in FIRST history.

1) When will we return to single champs? (if ever)
2) Will they use the super regional system similar to other FIRST programs?
3) How many super-regionals will there be?
4) How will they determine who makes the championship?
5) Where will the lines for the super regions be drawn?
6) What venues will likely host the super regionals?
7) How many teams make each super regional the year single champs returns?
8) How many teams make championships?

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Just find a way to get everybody in Districts.

Everybody gets to do 2 events or more.
Those that do well in their 2 events get to have a local championship experience.
Those that do well at District Champs get to go to the World Championship to compete with the top teams.
FIRST has complete control over attendance numbers by saying "we will take X number or % of teams from each District" (more or less how it works now anyway).

Major issues currently

International teams would need a large enough team density to make Districts work for them(not easy).
The other option is to retain the existing International Regionals and add another few and the international teams stay regional based.
Alternatively give the international teams the option to compete at a district event as if it was a regional or compete in a district of their choice.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Can't speak for other events, but at least in the case of Michigan, there's a way to go before the "Local Championship" Experience is anywhere close to Worlds. The production quality is just not there yet. When District Championships start utilizing professional production companies again to put on a "real" show then we'll talk. If every District Championship had at least the kind of event production you see at an event like Festival de Robotique in Montreal, then we can looking at making them "replacements" for the the World Championship, currently they're basically just super-regional size events with district-quality production. Not to say the event's are bad, they just don't have the same impact.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

FIRST HQ has sent the message that "there can only be one" is not important to them. I fully expect that in coming years, the claim of "sole world champion" will come down to a non-official event (probably IRI), if it can even be expressed there. Expecting FIRST to "put Humpty Dumpty back together again" is, to use the words of a local sportscaster "jumping on the magic carpet ride" and denying reality.

Just to be clear -- I want to be wrong in this, but that's the way I read things.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

There was an image floating around in 2012 that recommended super regionals and one championship. It was used to pitch New England districts.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

So does this model have 4 levels?

Districts/Regionals
DCMP/Regional CMP?
Super Regional
Worlds

I feel like 4 levels would be the way FIRST would go if they went back to 1 CMP. While still potentially possible to go back to 1 CMP and 2-3 levels after the current venue rentals end, any later and I think the backlash from people who don't remember 1 CMP would be equal to greater than the 2 CMP backlash. So I think if 1 CMP does happen again it will be because 2 CMP will eventually become 3 CMP, then 4+ CMP and then they add another level on top. However, if registration fees remain the same (and if anything they will probably go up), the total registration fees for teams who attend CMP would be around 20K, which is insane (even beyond the still quite insane 14k district teams pay now).

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

If Michigan is there yet, don't expect the other districts to be close. At PCH, the district championship experience isn't even close to a large regional. Not a complaint. It is not really an apple to oranges comparison. A large regional experience doesn't compare to worlds.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I personally think that New England is actually pretty close. The level of play is already >= Worlds. While the wow-factor may not be as large as Worlds, as someone who went to Worlds for the first time after DCMPs this year (Note: I had also never been to a regional, but I had been to 2 DCMPs), I was pretty blown away by DCMPs.

While it didn't have a lot of the fluff of Worlds, when you strip it down to what it is at its core, a robotics competition, I truly think it rivaled Worlds. The matches were exciting to watch and it is the only competition I watched that I actually expected teams to capture the tower in quals. While it didn't have the diversity of Worlds, it was still great to be able to walk the pits and see some incredible robots from teams that, while they are in our district, we still rarely see. It did have that wow-factor in sheer size for all but those who have been to St. Louis (The walk from the pits to the practice field was actually probably further than the walk to queue for those lucky teams in Newton). For a spectator/sponsor walking in off the street or a new team, it definitely still was an incredible and inspiring experience.

And as far as all that fluff at Worlds, while some of it added to the event, some of it was definitely a waste of money. Sure the fancy signs looked nice, but I do not even want to know how many grants could be given out to struggling teams for the cost of the signs alone. Some of the other stuff like Scholarship Row and social events do already exist and can be expanded fairly easily (at least relative to the work required to keep adding new CMPs, so more people can get the "Championship Experience" that way). I think the only thing that NE DCMP is missing is conferences and more of a supplier and sponsor presence, all of which would also not be that hard to implement. Even increasing the production value and adding entertainment would cost nothing relative to the cost of more CMPs.

Ultimately, while NE DCMP is not, and will never be, as fun of a vacation as Worlds, I do think it is fairly close to being as fun of a robotics competition and CMPs will be all the more special if you do qualify. Also, if what people want is a vacation, then I will steal someone from CD's proposal: Move 2 Champs to Disney World and Disney Land and let everyone go.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Rivaled? I was BORED watching most qualification matches on Newton on Thursday and the hour or so I got to watch on Friday evening.

Of course, I've been fairly vocal that the direction I'd like to see is bring some of what makes CMP a good experience to the regional/district level and let CMP become a true Superb Owl of Smart.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Well, since I the only quals I saw at Worlds were the 10 my team was in and the 10 before those, I was giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming the ones I didn't watch were better.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

If this is something you'd like to see at the 2017+ NE DCMPs you should reach out to NEFIRST and the event planners. Currently I believe that NEMO already hosts a conference am I'm sure it could be expanded to include some of the same presentations that have been given at the the *NEFIRST University conferences.

*for the past several seasons there have been these events in MA and CT in the "preseason".

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

4 levels is not possible without either moving kickoff earlier or pushing worlds back. Not enough time in the 9 competition weeks to have teams compete in both DCMPs and Super Regionals.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

According to most of CD there will be time in 2017. :D

That is a good point though.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Apparently, people didn't know where to put NY in 2012 either. I guess we will always be left out :(. Hopefully FIRST figures out a way to get NY involved in districts with the same quality as regionals soon.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I actually just found the presentation that graphic was from by complete chance (http://www.slideshare.net/ne-first/n...ll-meetings-ct). According to slide 7, FIRST did plan to eventually have 4 levels as of 2012. I have no idea how that would be possible now that I think about it. It would not only be another competition to squeeze in, it would mean some teams would have to make short-notice travel plans 2-3 times in a single season.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

This is really the only reservation (as a team) that I have with districts, and this would be yet another level. (Moving a single CMP back a week or two is minor compared with the costs of getting there, if it were reinstated.) With every additional level, the cost to advance is $4 or $5K plus travel per level. It would be great if at least there were no additional registration costs for advancements you'd earned.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

money doesn't come out of thin air unfortunately (and if it did, I suppose we would have found something else to be our currency). how would the events be funded if not with registration costs?

Good question. Maybe we can let event sponsors use students on these teams for free labor over the summer. Just make each team that doesn't want to pay registration give their best students mandatory unpaid internships.

In all seriousness, cost is probably the biggest reason I would expect single champs won't return for a while. Far enough in the future when 80% of the teams good enough to go to theoretical super regionals and champs can afford both, it will happen. 2026-2030 is my best guess. Possibly sooner if the single champs is in the 300ish or less teams range.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Can't speak for how this would work for a larger event like Worlds, but as it is now, if I'm not mistaken, none of the money collected from registrations for events in Districts (at least for FiM) actually go to the districts. I believe the same is true for District Championships as well. All the costs are covered by event sponsors. Jim Zondag also confirmed this in a post a while back.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Except, at its core, FIRST is not a robotics competition.

No where, in ANY of that, does FIRST or Dean talk about robots. Robots are simply the vehicle FIRST uses to reach it's goal, it is not FIRST's core. That "fluff" you talk about, is probably more at the core of FIRST than you give it credit for. Getting all of the programs together to inspire each other, bringing in colleges from around the world to talk with students about their future, having technology companies on hand getting immersed with the event, hosting conferences to help spread knowledge... those are all a big part of FIRST's core, and I HIGHLY doubt DCMP's come anywhere close to CMP when it comes to those things. FIRST is about so much more than the performance on the field, but so many people seem to fail to grasp that.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I believe only about $1000 from initial registration goes to the District, like the post you linked says, but all of the $1000 for additional district events goes to the District. I had thought that the District gets all or most of the money from DCMP, but Q13 on this seems to confirm that they actually don't get anything, or at least used to not.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

While I did say that some of the things like College Row and Conferences were not absolutely necessary to the competition, I also said that I thought that they should be expanded at the DCMP level. Also, when I said robotics competition, I was not just talking about the competition on the field, I was talking about what the FRC community has come to describe as a robotics competition. Those events where you meet all sorts of different people from different places and backgrounds and where you are able to learn from and be inspired by those people. It is those things that I have seen and come to expect from all FRC competitions that I use to define a robotics competition.

Upon rereading my post I probably could have been more clear in my thoughts. The stuff I meant was fluff, is things like the flight simulator, the big show after closing ceremonies, the decorations, etc. While I do not think they took away from the event and I have no idea what cost those things might have had (I assume a lot of it was donated or heavily discounted), I personally would not really miss them if they were gone and they certainly have nothing to do with FIRST's mission. I don't have anything against those things, but if we can reach a point where the largest difference between DCMPs and CMPs are those superficial things (which I am aware we are still a long way from), I will consider DCMPs acceptably close to the "Championship Experience."

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

But FRC is a robotics competition. It's in the name, right there, after the word FIRST. You can't just use FIRST and FRC as interchangeable terms in order to say a robotics competition isn't a robotics competition. These aren't FIRST District Championship events, these are FRC District Championship events. Yes, the mission of the FIRST organization as a whole is separate from "hold a robotics competition", but FRC, one of FIRST's vehicles for executing its mission, is a robotics competition. It's not unreasonable for people to suggest that we make changes to make the robotics competition aspect better, and it's belittling to dismiss any suggestion of change out of hand by insisting FRC isn't what it is.

Honest question: Have you ever been to a district championship? Other than it not being an international event (obviously), I'm not sure this is true. Lots of these aspects of CMP are already present at DCMPs. Some DCMPs have FLL / FTC demos there. Many have the involvement of dozens of technology companies. Some have conferences, and these could easily be expanded. As for whatever aspects of Champs aren't already strongly present at DCMP, there's nothing stopping local organizers from tailoring their DCMP experiences to get closer to that actual "Championship experience". We can make things better, if we're willing to consider changing at all...

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Pretty lights aren't in the quals at CMP, so there's only a few hours of fancy production.

I'd rather not tack on another $20K+ of cost for MICMP.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I think it's more that the $1000 goes to FiM, but not every event gets that funding available for their budget (though I imagine a portion of the costs are built into the cost of the field and transporting it). My point was more that it is possible to run events without collecting any additional registration fees, or at the very least with heavily discounted registration fees.

Right, but if the intent were to have the State Champs replace the opportunity for all teams to be able to attend worlds once every 4 years (which was FIRST's described intent for going to 2 Worlds) and limit Worlds to one event, you would have to improve the quality, opportunities, and production of the State Champs in order to be an adequate replacement, IMO.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Personally, I don't see a single championship making a comeback. I don't think it will be sustainable or reasonable when FIRST has to make that decision again and by that time most teams will be used to having multiple championships. In fact after so many ancient threads being referenced express opposite feelings about competition, there might be outrage if a single championship makes a comeback later in the future.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

The first year of FiM, we still had Show Ready at Ypsi for MSC. (And maybe after that, I don't remember when they were dropped at MSC in favor of producing it with local resources.)

As the opening video played, I thought, "Oh yeah, this is what I missed in the district events, the super woofers creating that rumble in my stomach."

I can do without the fancy lights and sounds too.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Net overall registration costs wouldn't necessarily need to change to eliminate/reduce the margin cost to go to CMP. Things could be restructured similar to what I read about at a district (PNW?) where the district championship registration is included in the registration fees for the district.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Referenced information: https://www.firstwa.org/Programs/FIR...ls/FRC-Funding

And yes it is PNW

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

I do think it'll make a comeback.

Back when ChampionSplit was announced, I posited that, if certain events happened, FIRST would reinstate a single Championship event. The primary item in that "certain events" was lots of districts, along with associated DCMPs. Then you get 4x "Super Regionals" and one Championship Event above the DCMPs and any remaining Regionals. At one time, this was the theoretical supposed model that FIRST was targeting, and some speculation ran that the ChampionSplit was in response to it not coming fast enough. I still think that can happen, probably around the 2020/2021 timeframe when the current contracts are up.

However, getting the split back together is going to be like taking the BCS to the CFP. Can be done, but it's not easy.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

Since a 4-level system has issues, perhaps the DCMP level could be dropped and the top n(%) of teams from each district (and maybe the winners of any remaining regionals) could immediately advance to the super-regional level.
They could keep the proposed team exchange program to add variety to the pool at each super-regional. International teams would likely still be competing in a regional-like system, and FIRST could try to distribute them evenly amongst the super-regionals. I think the elements are there to make each super-regional sufficiently CMP-like to achieve FIRST's goals. I also think it could easily be achieved within a decade.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

From the standpoint of reducing the costs and numbers of levels, this makes perfect sense. However, from the standpoint of FIRST's expressed goal of providing a "CMP Experience" to each team every four teams, it would be a step backwards.

As it turns out, in our fourth year, 3946 got that "CMP experience", through being the second-round selection of the #2 seeded alliance at a regional, and helping that alliance to regional championship (they wouldn't have made it without us, for several reasons). There was a LOT of great stuff going on all around St. Louis - great spirit, maker fairs, a great feat of engineering a few minute's walk away, and of course Dean's homework. Still, the key point for us for this to be a "CMP experience" was being at Karthik's live presentation. KARTHIK's. LIVE. Presentation. Without that, or an equally inspirational event (not impossible, but certainly in short supply), no event will provide that same inspiration as our trip to CMP in 2015. I think and hope that this presentation changed our team (and possibly the two rookie teams we mentored for 2016) for several years to come. Unfortunately, it appears that only one of our 25 2015 CMP attendees will be a team member in 2017, and that in six years as a team (including 2017), we shall have exactly two four-year veterans; none of our three year veterans (including my son and daughter, and another for whom our high school constitutes the family business -- whose grandparent, parent, and sibling are all on staff or faculty) intend to continue on the team for their senior year. If we won a trip to CMP (or split/quartered CMP) every four years, we will at best catch half of our members, though probably not that many.

Re: Predictions: The Return of One Championship?
 

IMHO, I think that this is how it should be structured:

• 1 Championship- This will look very similar to the current championship.
• About 4-8 Super-Districts. These will be a bit bigger than the current districts, though about half the size of the proposed super-regionals. Each sends the top few dozen teams to champs.
• Competitions- these can be similar to current districts, though the whole super-district would be open.
• The top 50-100 teams in each Super-District can go to Super-District Championships.
• International teams continue with the regional system until they have enough teams to create a super-district.

Pretty much it would take the current district system, and make each district bigger. Having fewer districts allows FIRST to concentrate its resources in fewer district championships, and this system only requires 3 levels instead of 4.