Democrat or Republican
 

So November 5th is ALMOST here. What are you going to (Dont comlplain about privacy, if you post it here you give it up. ITS YOUR CHOICE) Are you a Democrat (*cough the good guys *cough) or a Republican (*cough bad bad bad *cough)



I'm a democrat and PROUD OF IT!

Funny, yet so so so true

I hate it when people try to force their political ideas onto others...

I choose my party as independant...

MattK: do you start pointless arguements on purpose or is it just natural???


anyway, I go republican

I think he likes seeing us tear eachother appart.

KINDA LIKE ME!!!

DEM's ALL THE WAY!

Hmmm... considering my conservative authoritarian views I'm going to have to go Republican.


A funny, but sadly true example of American economics

What party does Dean Kamen belong to? :P

Born....breed.....proud.....American Republican.

DJ: $10 its just natural so u cant blame the kid for starting dumb arguments

but i go republican

Any decent person with their mind in the right place would choose the republican standpoint. :p

i am a semi decent person wih my head on my neck what does that make me :cool:

My $.08
 

hmm, this is amusing, thinking about this with my Intro to US Gov and Politics class....

First off, I would like to point out that our party system isn't one that should even be considered valid for the fact that it hasn't had a major realignment in over 60 years and haven't really changed to answer any new issues. Our system needs a major realignment...most voters have a split ticket vote. How many people actually agree with everything a party believes in, almost no one. Doesn't that just seem fishy?

Saying all of that, I must say that you all should take a look at how you are deciding who you vote for before you say what party you identify yourself with...do you listen to the promises made? do you look at what good/bad the candidate has already done? etc...

I urge every registered voter to go out and research the candinates view points and the issues being voted on. Our government can be much more responsive if we all vote on what we belive in then it can be if we just vote on a party. Another thing is not to forget the "small" guys. Find out about local elections, the truth is that they will have more of an impact on your lives then anyone headed for washington. Also, don't just research the candinates, research and bills, acts, or other things looking to be passed. It really is the little things that count.

And about this whole "good guy", "bad guy" thing. What this country lacks is empathy. Barely 35% of the eligable voters even come to midterm elections and barely 50% come to presidential...Sad statistics...And because of wonderful things like "the media" most people have a horibble view of politicians...What people don't seem to understand is that most politicians don't have alternative motives and most politicians are loosing money by taking an office. And most politicians don't even recieve very many perks.

I suggest everyone take a class about political science and really think about issues, not parties. A great book to read if you can find it is Politics in the Trenches by Thomas Volgy. It is the story of a local politician and his experiences in being the mayor of Tuscon, Arizona. It really is a good book.

The following is sorta stream of conciousness...

I've got no respect for people who vote for a candidate solely because they're a member of their own political party. Saying things like "DEM's ALL THE WAY!" or "Any decent person with their mind in the right place would choose the republican standpoint." even in fun just perpetuates this stupid "my political party is better than yours" attitude. When you should really be saying things like "this issues means a lot to me, and I want to find a politician who feels the same way." or "I want my congressperson to cut the b.s. party rhetoric and tell me what they actually believe in."

MattK, and the rest of you people who claim to be partyline voters: Saying that one political party is better than the other is like saying Chocolate ice cream is better than Peppermint Stick. There really are no "bad guys" or "good guys."

So I'll answer this question in my own little way. I'll write how my ideal candidate would vote or lean on certain issues which mean a lot to me (the ones I can think of on short notice). If you'd like to take issue with my beliefs, we can have a civil conversation about them.

• Pro-Choice
  Anti-Vouchers
  Medicinal Pot = Good
  Assisted Suicide = Good
  Maintain current level of state/federal taxes for poor and middle class. Raise taxes slightly on the wealthy.
  Anti-Free trade (NAFTA). Bad for American workers.
  Total separation between church and state (GJ 9th Circuit w/ regards to the plege of allegiance).
  [Massive amounts of] Regulation, not a ban, on fire arms.
  Universal health coverage (Federally run).

I'll be voting for Gray Davis over Bill Simon in the California Gubernatorial race. I'll also be voting for Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren (District 16).

Yup, right-conservative authoritarian (I hit the side of the square right on the conservative-authoritarian line). The quiz works. :D

Can anyone else not stand politics? Elections are horrible. They lie and cheat in order to gain a vote. I don't know how people can vote. I highly doubt I ever will. If I do, it will most likely be for myself. People say that non-voters are ruining this society...I think it's the politicians. Three choices for president is really not that many...it would be interesting if you would make like that quiz and just pick yes or no on certain topics...then a presidential candidate would be assigned to you. Hmm...

*runs for president*

Democrat.

I agree with nearly everything the Democratic party believes in, so I'm definitely not on the fence here.

Well put, Bill - and very true.

- Katie

I'm sorry, but did you even read what I posted?

The problem in all of this is that most of what you believe is only true to a VERY small degree. Really look at who is paying for all of those slash ads. Many of them are paid for by interest groups or corperations that want to help a candadite, but can't give hard money to them. Find out about "hard money" and "soft money." "Soft money" will be banned as of Nov. 6! Most every politician that will ever do anything to change your life is not corrupt and is not just in it for fame/glory. If fact, most of them will lose money by helping you out.

Also, the problem with having 20 candidates for an office is that there would never actually be a majority vote on something. It would end in even more people frustrated with our government. Here's something to help some people out:

Politics: A non-violent method to solve constant contradiction between people.

All politics is is a method to solving problems. It's all about compromise. Well, part of that is voting for someone who believes in most of the things you do even if they're not all of them. vote for the one who you think has the best experience and will do the best job. Vote for the person who you think really wants the job for the job, not for the little perks it may give.

The fact that most people think that all politicians lie, cheat, and steal is a product of our nation's negative attitude twards almost everything. All we want to see in the news is lying, cheating, and stealing...so, that's all we see. We never get the good things on the news or in the newspaper. So why else would we think that there's anything else?

The fact is is that it's not the politicains ruining our government, it's people who have mentalities and a lack of empathy like this. By having this mentality, you are just giving in to what you disagree in.

I'll add another 2 or 3 cents to the convo...

I wouldn't say that elections are horrible. If you don't vote, then you can't complain. I vote because I care about issues like not wanting Roe v. Wade overturned, and not wanting the Banks/Credit Card companies to push their restrictive Bankruptcy bill through congress, etc. Besides, saying something needs fixing without providing a feasible solution (or multiple feasible solutions) won't get you anywhere. If there's anything I've learned about politics over the past 8 years, it's to not leave it up to politicians to try to solve a problem. I've had quite a bit of experience when it comes to politics thanks to my politically active, Bankruptcy Attorney (Debtors Attorney), parents. You've got to force-feed politicians your position, your arguements, your solutions, your ammendments, etc. Not all politicians lie and cheat. Adam brought up a good point that the media publicizes corruption so much that the American public seems to think that's all that goes on in Washington D.C. and state capitols. If there's something I hate, it's people who are indifferent about politics, or people who constantly complain about problems (which I agree, there are) with our government but refuse to think of solutions or refuse to be a part of fixing them.

First, I think that test has far few questions to really determine political idealogies...the issues that matter the most to me and shape my political beliefs weren't even addressed.

Moving along, I agree with Bill...you should really look at the issues or the stances of the candidate rather than simply voting party line. Especially since it is known that most people inherit our political stances from one's parents, you should know what you're voting for instead of being just brought up that way.

I'm a registered Democrat and am very active in the Bruin Democrats here at UCLA but I consider myself more moderate and admit that I'm conservative on some issues like <gasp> abortion. That's why its important that I get both sides and try to find unbiased information about who the candidates are and the various propositions, etc. I've done my homework, sheesh, I mean I'm a poli sci major and overall I do find myself having more incommon with the democratic party (and no, its not because i'm a female minority, i grew up in a very conservative white suburb and my family's uppermiddle class and my dad is conservative) and will vote for Gray Davis in a week.

Oh, and just to brag and I'm still very giddy, I went to a "get out the vote" rally yesterday night and I saw Gray Davis & Martin Sheen and I was only a foot away from Bill Clinton!!!!!!! I'm still on cloud nine :)

"The only enemy of democracy is a silent citizenship."
--Don't remember

I'm a registered independent, since no political party particularly appeals to me. I consider myself to be a moderate with a tendancy to leap to the extremes in certain cases (i.e. affirmative action, excessive political correctness, death penalty).

I have no real opinion on abortion, since it wouldn't really be any of my business unless I were the prospective father.

On a side note:
Massachusetts is in the middle of its gubernatorial elections, which have turned very ugly. I know the majority of the attack ads have come from interested third parties, but I find myself wondering why neither Mitt Romney or Shannon O'Brien, or for that matter, any candidate I've ever seen, hasn't spoken out agains them.

Attack ads serve no positive purpose, as their only result seems to be to turn people off of both candidates, causing a dropoff in voter attendance. I mean, why would you want to vote for someone when the majority of what you've seen and heard about them has been negative? And third-party and independant candidates don't usually get enough exposure to really have a chance at winning major elections.

I think that's all for now.

just because i'm major poli sci mindset right now (studying for my midterm) third parties are usually a long shot for much much more than lack of exposure. its more because we have a plurality/winner take all/single member district/first past the post system that makes the US and similar system usually only have two major parties.

not like this really matters much to most of you but i'm trying to find any excuse right now not to study...and look, i'm reviewing through this response, what has college done to me?!

republican...you have to be in my family..:D

Hey thats Lincoln got elected.

I started to...then got distracted...posts over 10 lines are too long for me too read :D

If I had to choose I would be democrat, I lean that way a little and will vote that way. Well, that and George Bush's economy plan caused me to lose my job yesterday. Not that I'm blaming him in particular or anything, finances are complex, but he is the head of our govt. I took that quiz and came out a centrist leaning toward liberal so yeah....thats me. I really don't think either side is wrong as long as they keep an open mind, and I think democrats are better at that. So thats why Im a democrat.

[edit] Just saying, I went to a debate last night between two state senators, two state reps, and one national rep. The problem with the debate was that they all agreed on many issues, and the only controversy was over how seriously issues should be handled. I was kind of dissapointed in it, because the main thing that people then looked for was how charasmatic and how good of a speaker the person was, which is not necessarily important. All I'm saying here is that it's healthier to have a broad range of party affiliation within the local government in order to get ideas from both sides to solve the problems. I think that this is a major problem in america. Controversy provokes thought.

20 out of all the members of the House run in a close race (I learned this at the debate last night).

According to that quiz someone posted, i'm a Centrist. (Horray for aquarian indecisiveness!!) Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, elections are merely popularity contests (similar to student counsel elections in school, where they really have no power, no one really cares, but somehow the most popular people end up in office). Not to be offensive to those political entusiasts mind you.

yeah especially when your dad was head of the republican party in town....


anyway

you know what cracks me up....a party introudces a bill, but the other party votes it down because there is something tacked onto the end such as a ridiculus pay raise or cut some program that is pro-democrat or pro-republican

but at campaign time, since they voted no to this new bill because of the pay raise or the program issue they are heartless and they shouldnt get votes...

thats politics for you

**CAUTION ** Don't read it unless you can take it.... The Truth Hurts Sometimes...
 

Just some comments relating to a previous post from someone who's been cured of a terrible disese (former democrat)

Pro-Choice = Pro Genocide (Seen the pictures from the new GE 3D utrasound of the few week old baby in the womb yet? They are babies - Human babies - Little children - Don't you get it??!? It is incredible to me how anyone cannot see that unless they just like lying to themselves! Me-Me-Me..... That is a pro-choice attitude! How can you consider birthing a baby up to its chin, sticking a large suction needle in the baby's barain and sucking it out, a choice??? ie partial birth abortion. UGH!??!?!??!)

Anti-Vouchers = Protecting a system in need of reform from market forces (Public education is that good huh? Or are you afraid of competition?)

Medicinal Pot = Good (I'll go along with this)

Assisted Suicide = Good (until its your kids convincing you to die... Very BAD!! What about forced suicide (euthenasia) since we cant help the patient anyway? )

Maintain current level of state/federal taxes for poor and middle class. Raise taxes slightly on the wealthy. = a half truth & theft! ( only the wealty pay taxes! Check the IRS Stats. The upper half of the people ranked by income levels pay 96% of the taxes now!!! How much money is enough? What additional program would you like to sell to get votes for the party? When government redirecting wealth (taxes) is involved the power is to take from the few and give to the many since the many have more votes. This assures electoral victories.)

Anti-Free trade (NAFTA). Bad for American workers. (Afraid of a little competition? Improve productivity. It's a better alternative than protectionism.)

Total separation between church and state (GJ 9th Circuit w/ regards to the plege of allegiance). (Sure glad you were not around in 1776. The men who wrote the Declaration of Independance & the Constitution were proud of thier religious beliefs. They wanted to be free to practice thier religion --- not be free from religion!)

[Massive amounts of] Regulation, not a ban, on fire arms. = Enslavement the peoples power! ( When it is asked why other peoples do not reform thier backward, opressive governments, the answer is they cannot!! They(the people) have no real power without the possibility (maybe the probability) of the use of a comparable amount of force which would come from thier government. Guns keep you free, like it or not.)

Universal health coverage (Federally run). = REALLY BAD!! (welcome to socialism... What's next? All industry and jobs 'federally run"? Sounds great. THe government has done such a good job with the INS, Customs, $500 military hammers, coffee pots that survive plane crashes, etc, etc, etc that you want to empower them to decide on your health care??!??!)

Gray-out Davis... Former chief of staff of Gov. Moonbeam ... Just another self serving Democrat who will do and say anything to retain or accumulate power. (Watched the Dems in Minn at the 'memorial service'? - These people were laughing, partying and hucking it up, booing the dignataries who came to pay respect to Wellstone!??! Incredible!!! Have they no shame? Have they no self respect?)

Democrats -:mad:- Party of the past.

Republicans -:)- Party of the future.

Stand up - Think Clearly - Vote Republican (at least you will stand FOR something)

Wait... One more thing... Do you know what the definition of a conservative is? A liberal who's been mugged!

Leave it to MattK to pick the most controversial topic on Earth, start a thread about it, and leave it to fester and degenerate into a flamewar.

It hasn't really happened yet, but with the way things are going, I can see it...

Re: **CAUTION ** Don't read it unless you can take it.... The Truth Hurts Sometimes...
 

Actually...if I'm recalling my textbooks and teachers correctly, some of the major men that wrote the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution were not religious individuals or Deists...why would these people want protestant religions governering their lives and the government...

Also Under God was added to the pledge in the 20th century...it wasn't something that our Founding Fathers would have wanted...

I can't vote Democrat after Tues. night. Those people make me sick. (For those who don't know what happened see http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...cs/4408094.htm or http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3400441.html) Not letting people attend (including Vice-President Cheney) a memorial service because of their political beliefs is almost as sad as turning a respectful and heartfelt service for Paul Wellstone into what the Associated Press called a “a furious series of partisan speeches” and a rally “to help [Senator Wellstone’s] ballot replacement to victory next week.”

You said it yourself, you're an authoritarian conservative. You wouldn't have voted democrat, anyway.

Other than that, Cheney has absolutely no right to be there, and neither did any other republican, if you ask me. Paul Wellstone was one of the most compassionate senators this country has ever seen.

If you think the attendees of the memorial service thought of the death of Paul Wellstone lightly, you really need to reexamine your values and thought processes. The deaths of great people are never cheerful events, especially those of people who have spent their lives trying to protect the rights and welfare of others.

I'd really like to see a martyr come out of the GOP (Only for the novelty, mind you. I never like seeing good people die). But I guess Hell has a better chance of freezing over...

You, Mike, have not read my previous post. I suggest you do so.

You're as bad as they are, especially if you think I didn't admire Wellstone. It was only his views I opposed. As a politician he voted with his scruples and would not be bought out. I completely agree that the service should be a solemn event and that is why I am disgusted that the monsters turned it into campaign rally (this is also the reason the U of MN (where the service was held) condems the DFL and television stations are working on a deal to give free airtime to the GOP). You have been brainwashed and must learn to think for yourself again. There exists a line betwixt the politicians and the politics. Never forget this.

This doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about, but I just thought that it was interesting that the United States is the only country (if I recall correctly, if I'm wrong, please correct me) in which political parties / candidates do not get free television airtime. To me, this seems to tip the scales of publicity in favor of wealthy candidates (disregarding the two main political parties, although minor parties would benefit [however, if all parties were represented, it might prove to be huge amounts of airtime. /me shrugs]).

Don't you just love how money is the driving force of our government, rather than the good of the people, or even what the politicians personally prefer?

What does that have to do with anything? I'm about as Liberal as they come, yet Sam and I are still friends and even coach a lego-league team together. Should political views affect how we like a person?

I honestly believe that Paul Wellstone was one of the last good (in the moral sense) politicians. He never sold out, he never backed down, and he never cared whether how he voted on a bill would get him re-elected. He even disagreed with the democratic party at times. I don't know about you, but I think that means something.

In my opinion, the memorial should have been about Wellstone, not about the DFL (that's what we Minnesotans call democrats) and the upcoming election. People of all backgrounds and political views should be allowed to say goodbye to a man they worked with on a daily basis.

Seing the so-called "memorial" service quickly turn into a campaign rally sickened me so much that I had to turn it off. If you've seen it, you know what I mean.

Re: **CAUTION ** Don't read it unless you can take it.... The Truth Hurts Sometimes...
 

I would like to point out that the mentioned post was totally uncalled for and extremely offensive in my point of view. Not only is it not necessary to pick apart one person's views in the manner shown, it is completely ignorant to try and state one person's views as "The Truth." Almost everyone who has posted in this thread before has been somewhat civil about the debate and has acknowledged that there is no one way to look a single matter.

I respect that you have your opinion of issues, but I do not think that the extreme detail in which the matters were discussed was necessary. In fact, some of the statements made were quite offensive to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one offended. So in discussing matters of such nature I ask this, please be considerate of other's views, be civil about the issues, and try and when posting about sensitive issues (as in ones that people have died over) please remember that what you say may be quite offensive to someone else.

I have many different kinds of friends, as well. I'd like to think that I'm friends with most everyone who frequents Tigerbolt, including such people who have previously posted in this thread as DJ Fluck, Clark, Katie, Chelly, Wetzel, Joe and Amy Ross, Melissa (yearbook50), Kristina, M. Krass, Bill (heh, duh).... the list goes on, and I think that covers most of the political spectrum (and in the case of Libertarians, even some who aren't on the spectrum). I'm an agnostic/atheist (depends on my mood :p), and a good majority of the above-mentioned people practice a religion, of some sort. I would really like to be able to think of myself as an accepting and open-minded person, but I don't particularly like making such judgments about myself, I'll leave that to all of you.

As for Paul Wellstone, himself, my mother was responsible for donating more than $4500 to his campaign, and we live half the country away (California). He was a great senator. One of the few who cared about the people whom he served, and stood up for what he believed in. I know about this very well, sadly, because he was the only senator (republican OR democrat, because both sides are owned by major banking companies) who was openly against the Bankruptcy Reform Bill. The whole bankruptcy issue is entirely off-topic, so I'll not get into it.

As for the memorial itself, I agree that it did become a political rally, but I don't think you could really eulogize Paul Wellstone in any proper manner without promoting the Democratic Party.

Oh well, Jesse Ventura might appoint a casual citizen, now, "just for the novelty."

Re: Re: **CAUTION ** Don't read it unless you can take it.... The Truth Hurts Sometimes...
 

ditto

ammendment: and for the record Jim is ditto'ing with me too but he's afraid to post again in fear of brandon getting mad at him.

I just wanted to say that I'll have a response to Mike Rush's post when I get back from my trip to Riverside, CA for my grandparents' 61st wedding anniversary Sunday evening. It's too late at night for me to think of anything intelligent.

-Bill

Well, its about that time again. The ceremonial 'hey, cool it, lets think about what we are saying' post.

Yes it's ok to post your opinion until people start saying 'Here's my opinion, it's right no matter what you say, because I say so.' I've received a few complaints already about this thread, and I hope the two I've received will be the end of them.

I really hope this thread isn't going to turn into another 'pick at your every word to prove you wrong or make some obscure/incorrect/offensive accusation about your beliefs' thread. Anwyay, Lets think about where we are, what we're saying, and that other people have their own opinions that you may or may not agree with. Forcing your belifs on someone does not accomplish anything positive, it only creates a lot of problems.

Lets try to keep this a positive & constructive conversation... not a 'vote _________ because I say its better' shouting match.

And, don't forget to read tihs thread if you haven't already.

*WARNING* Once again, like it or not...
 

There is a truth. There is a right and there is a wrong. It is completely independent of what you (or I) think about any subject. Unfortunately, moral relativism has permeated our society and is tearing it apart.

The battle is between traditional moral values and post modern relativism. It is a battle about the basic civil societal beliefs. Ask yourself... If right and wrong are relative, where is the line? Who decides where it is? When will it cross the point at which you would draw it? What will you do then? What should you do now?

If you were offended by the description of the abortion, maybe it was because, even for a fraction of a second, you realized it was a baby I was referring to. If it were just some shapeless blob without identity, maybe you would not have been offended by the description. It is important to describe indetain exactly what happens when a baby is aborted by the 'partial birth' method. Otherwise, clear thinking people might not realize exactly how barbaric and inhumae this procedure is.

My guess would be if this same thing were happening to puppies or baby seals, most 'pro-choice', animal-rights liberal activists would be up in arms calling for a prohibition. But, because it is happening to HUMANS, and it's a 'CHOICE', it's OK!!

--Previous post by Yearbook50---
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually...if I'm recalling my textbooks and teachers correctly, some of the major men that wrote the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution were not religious individuals or Deists...why would these people want protestant religions governering their lives and the government...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which ones?

Democrats -:mad:- Party of the past.

Republicans -:)- Party of the future.

Stand up - Think Clearly - Vote Republican (at least you will stand FOR something)

In life I have learned that there are two things you never discuss with friends:

1. Religion

2. Politics

I suggest that you think about my words.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
 

Look...enough is enough. The way in which you have posted is uncalled for. You have NO right to decide what may have been offensive to me or anyone else. To tell you the truth, it was the fact in which your opinions were stated that offended me. It was the general disrespect towards others and their opinions. It was the fact that one person's ideas and beliefs were picked apart to a personal level. I felt personal attacks were made on people. The point is SOMEONE GOT OFFENDED. Nothing else matters.

I respect your beliefs and opinions as your beliefs and opinions. I don't feel that the respect is being returned to me or others.

The fact of the matter is that this is a site about robotics for FIRST participants, not one of moral issues and judgement debates. It is a forum in which I would hope I could go to read and not be offended doing so.

Please remember what the forum's purpose is and that you are representing your team.

*Caution* One last time...
 

When considering a matter of right and wrong, knowing that there is a difference IS in the best interest of 'representing your team'! Or, for that matter, representing yourself, your family, government, or faith.

Question: If your opinions offended me, would you not post them? --- fill in your answer ---

Since you answered in the affirmative (as you must besause you are asking me not to post my opinions since they offended you. I'm sure you would not ask someone else to do what you would not also agree to do), post no opinions concerning any pro abortion, pro gun control, pro protectionism, anti school choice, pro socialist govenmental takeover of health care, pro moral relativism, or anti-religous sentiment because these offend me.

With the best of intentions....

Strategery? Lockbox?

Why does Gore think he invented the Internet?!?!?

<--- Republican supporter

I wanted to do this tomorrow. I'm tired.
 

I'm tired, I tried to stay out of this, and I apologize in advance for the multitudes of people I'll surely piss off.

First, to stay on topic - I'm registered as an Indepent, though I voted for many Democratic candidates in the last election. Honestly, I don't know much about the party platforms and would rather investigate each candidates stance on issues that are important to me.

Finally, this isn't meant to be a personal attack. I don't know Mike Rush, I have never met him, I don't care to meet him, and he's free to believe whatever he'd like to believe. Further, he's free to openly and endlessly write about it here or anywhere else, and defend himself as he deems necessary. Or not. He can be the 'bigger person' and let it die, because, obviously, any person who makes an effort at clarifying themselves, their position, or history is out for the big win and nothing else. I don't care anymore, really. I've just about had it with these forums - or society - or me. I don't know. I do know, though, that I probably won't feel any better for writing any of this - but I will anyway for the sake of continuity and for the sake of my sanity. I need this for myself more than anyone reading it probably does.

By your logic, though, is there really any battle at all? You're setting yourself up as an absolute. You are right. 'Moral relativists' are wrong. You're not inviting debate, obviously, but declaring the supremacy of your line of thinking. You won't entertain the possibility of another opinion because you would then be participating in something you perceive to be destructive to society.

Truth is a very powerful word, and it's been used in such a way that shows little regard for that power. But, again, that's me speaking as a moral relativist, by default, since I'm questioning you.

If you've convinced yourself of this, I envy you. There's little else in the world that I seek more than conviction. I don't know, for certain, about anything. I am forced to call my life into question on a daily basis, but I fight on. It's hard, really, and I'm not always certain why I do it. But, somewhere, somehow, there's a driving force that keeps me going - keeps me questioning, and learning, and growing. Maybe it's conviction. Maybe it's something else. Something weak. Something sinister. Something lost.

While I don't suspect this to be the case, it's also entirely possible that you've architected your argument in such a way as to achieve what I've described. If so, good try. I'm not buying it, though, and through this post, I'm fulfilling my obligation to myself - and to others (by my own order, admittedly) to point it out. It's a good word game you've played, but it is only a game. The truth of the matter is that you're in no better position to tell what is wrong or right than anyone else. The truth of the matter is that moral relativism is unavoidable in the face of progress.

What is right and wrong, anyway? Where can we find an absolute definition? Webster's? Surely, good old Daniel put his own moral spin on the words. The Bible? Are people who aren't Christian contributing to the moral decay of our society? The Koran? The Torah? Consumer Reports? Who in the realm of man defines truth? I don't know. I don't think you know either.

Oh, but there's that pesky relativism creeping up on us again.

I have more to say, honestly. I'd intended to go back and research some documentation regarding separation of church and state. But, given your last post, I won't bother. It's not worth it.

* * *

Again, I apologize to everyone. I can't say what for, exactly, because I'm still not certain quite what I've done that seems to upset people so greatly. I'm learning, growing, and changing - and in some major ways that most people would never conceive. Writing helps me to work things out - and for everything I write in public, know that I've done ten times as much in private conversation or in journal. It's not personal, but it helps me to clarify how I feel, and I hope that maybe by doing this 'out loud', so to speak, there's one person somewhere who has things a bit easier than I've had. I know my views, my decisions, and my words are not always popular, but it's taken me a long time, a lot of difficult introspection, and a lot of strength to be able to share them - and I can't let people stop take that away from me.

Yes, I am fighting for something with every fiber of my being each time I write. No, I don't care one bit if I'm right.

I hope that clears things up. I'm sorry.

Re: I wanted to do this tomorrow. I'm tired.
 

Well Said.

I found that quite humorous :D

Re: *Caution* One last time...
 

Mr. Rush,

Please quote me in on single place in this whole forum board in which I have made a single comment as to my opinions on these matters. The only comments I have made are to defend the government that has been set in place and to urge people to vote.

With that said, I have no objections to you posting your opinions. My only objection is the fasion in which you have posted them. I will assume your above statement was not directed at me, but to others who have posted their opinions. The point that I am trying to convey is that the intensity and extreme description of your opinions is not necessary. I know we all have passions about issues, but I think the best action would be to try and contain them. Bill Gold displayed his opinions in a very tactful manner, yet I know he is very passionate about them. He stated the opinion in a minimalist fasion and moved on. I have purposely not expressed my opinions on any issues for the fact that I would like to avoid confrontation over them.

If there were a point to this thread, it would to be to state your opinion, not to question the opinions of others. I know this makes me a hypocrit for criticizing other's views of the government and politicians, yes I admit it. So that makes me wrong for trying to get people involved in our own government. The only point I am trying to get through is to try and keep a level of maturity and tact when discussing such serious issues...

I apologize if you still can not understand the point I am trying to convey or can not at least agree to disagree.

As I see it, the memorial probably turned into kind of a "wake" for liberals and progressives, and I suspect Wellstone would have wanted it that way.

Back to the original title of this thread
 

I am an independant, but have voted for mostly Democrats since the Republican party changed from the party of Lincoln into something much different.

I haven't voted for many successful candidates for president, and the ones I have voted for, Nixon and Clinton, have had (IMHO) some good policy decisions, but a number of personal problems.

Oh well.

I am going to stay out of the political part of this all. I wanted to stay out of this thread completely, but I cannot go on not saying anything, anymore.

People are entitled to their own beliefs and opinions – that's what opinions are: what you believe! I don't think anyone here or anywhere else, for that matter, should be robbed of that right.

M posed the question, "What is right and wrong, anyway?" The answer is, there is no right and wrong when it comes to certain things. Politics is one of these things.

M also said, "Truth is a very powerful word, and it's been used in such a way that shows little regard for that power." I agree completely. There is no 'truth' when it comes to the points raised here. You can twist and turn any situation to make you feel better about your choices. The only way to find the "truth" in some of these matters, is to look at it from a completely unbiased point of view – something very few people can do.

All politics are, are the beliefs, opinions and ideas of others. To go ahead and say, "Well, I like this candidate because (s)he believes what I believe" is fine. To say, "Well, I like this candidate because (s)he believes what I believe, and anyone who disagrees with me is WRONG," is not fine.

Go ahead. Post your political beliefs. But don't bash others while doing so. Don't dwell on arguments of the past. In fact, don't argue at all. Everyone is better off this way.

"When we say that two men are talking politics, we often mean that they are wrangling about some mere party question." --F. W. Robertson.

- Katie

I am a DemoCat. I am pro-catnip, anti-declawing, and I think all cats should have the right of choice concerning spaying and neutering.

MissInformation

<===========>
Purr and the whole world purrs with you, hiss and you hiss alone.

The 'morality of compromise' sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don't compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised.

-Andrew Carnegie

Hmm. Yep.

I think this thread has out-lived its allotted lifespan. Everybody has had ample time to make their point and express their opinions many, many times.

If you would like to continue this discussion, please do so via e-mail or instant messenger. Thanks.