Event Machine Shops
 

A discussion has started up the California district proposal thread that I think warrants it's own topic.

Mobile machine shops at events are a huge help to teams but they are very inconsistent in terms of equipment and capabilities.

What are the most used tools and capabilities that mobile machine shops provide?
What is the minimum tooling that events should have on hand?

As more areas go to districts it may be useful to start packing some of the tools on the trailers with the field, av equipment, etc.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

I'm fairly confident that a capable machine shop for an event can fit in a road case if we're clever.

Something like this would be able to do most machining jobs needed at an event. I'm sure less expensive options can be found.

Other necessities off the top of my head:

• Tap, Die, and Drill sets
• Wrenches, screwdrivers, sockets, pliers, files
• Band Saw
• Belt sander

Well, since I am the one who brought the original thread off-topic I guess I have to chime in :D

My list of essential tools is as follows:
[*]Band saw[*]Hand tools (wrenches, sockets, pliers, clamps, etc.)[*]Chop saw[*]Drill press[*]Manual mill[*]Manual lathe[*]TIG welder


The more basic tools (drill press, saws, etc.) are absolute musts and seem to be what we utilized the most with machine shop requests the last season. The other more advanced tools (mill, lathe, welder) are less frequently used but are needed for more advanced work. I would stay away from the combination machine tools, as most people I've spoken to about tools absolutely hate them and say it takes longer to use than stand-alone tools. For tooling I think the basics for each (an assortment of end mills, blades, etc.) would be sufficient.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

I'd add a drill press. I also know that teams that weld like to have a welder, though I don't think welders are allowed at every venue. Overall, I'd say that teams want to have everything they would have in their shop (minus CNC things). So, being from a team without a mill or lathe, I personally think the only necessities are band saw, drill press, and sander. I'd also say that the hand tools are not necessary. Teams should be responsible for bringing their own or they can easily borrow those things from the 39 teams that did bring them.

Also, a small, but important thing is clamps and vises.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

For production, sure, but we're talking about quick fixes, cost, transportation, and storage space, all of which are at a premium for districts.

Welders can be difficult because you need someone capable of using one.

I made an incomplete list on Google Docs that we can work on.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xVuavRDo/edit#

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Our school provides the mobile machine shop at some Ontario events. The tools that is used the most is usually the lathe. After that is usually the bandsaw. Things like the arbor press, vice and drill press also come in handy but teams often bring their own and share.

Edit: I really believe a small lathe is essential. There's been numerous times where teams would not have been able to continue to compete without a access to a lathe due to a failed shaft in their drivetrain.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Are there actually competitions where the machine shop has raw materials? In New England, your options are bring it, ask another team for it, or go to Home Depot.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

By far the most used tools in the NASA mobile machine shop from Ames are the belt/disc sander, vertical bandsaw, and drill press. After that I would guess mill, lathe, and welder.

Even for quick fixes at events these machines are truly awful. They are hard to use and are really awkward and just bad. Plus you lose the benefit of being able to have one person on the mill and one on the lathe.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Thoroughly seconded. A drill/mill/lathe is not a drill press, a mill, or a lathe. It's a machine trying to cram all those functions into the space of one and as a result of supreme utility, it's ease of use and ability to function well suffers.

Thanks for making this! I've started to go through and add comments and tools.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

I can speak to this, NC FIRST has a 30 ft mobile machine shop trailer similar to the NASA trailers you see often at regional events.

We have a small mill, a lathe, a drill press, a welder, plasma cutter, chop saw, band saw, a 16 ton hydraulic arbor press, grinders, a compressor, hand tools, and associated tooling for those machines for FRC applications.

There is an installed lighting and an air system overhead as well.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

As we give thought to the essentials of a mobile machine shop, consider the strategic picture:

It's the skill base of the people using the machinery that cause the quality effect. A table top mill is nice, but if you keep drilling holes in the vise or the table or spin the part across the area because you're smart but ignorant in the use of the machine, nobody wins.

With an investment of this sort, care must be taken about who will care for the gear and organize the people who use it. The owners of the mobile shop need a say in who gets to use the gear, and staffed by volunteers that are officially part of the local event. Consider insurance and liability…

Another excellent example of a mobile shop is the one used in AZ the last couple of years. Well thought out by expert practitioners and staffed by skilled people. Outside the event itself a local supporter brought in his own mobile welding rig-they helped a lot of teams.

But back to skill. The whole FRC thing was organized because of the erosion of the national skill based due to attrition in the work force and abandonment by regular-day education of these skills. See again the first few minutes of this: https://vimeo.com/139506546

Thanks all for bringing the big picture back into focus.

Joe
Wrench Turner

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

The pix are from the second AZ regional in 2016 at Grand Canyon University.

It's a very well organized steel table setup, with electricity wired in, air compressor chucks plumbed on, that's forklifted into the venue. Very impressive how much thought went into it. Don't know who keeps it operational in the off-season.

Joe
Electrician

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

I definitely like the roll it in, plug-and-play bench set up. That thing is almost a road case type set up. One of the biggest advantages I can see is that anyone can rent a flat-bed/tilt-bed trailer for just the weekend cheaply and not need a permanent trailer with all that equipment set up inside. You could just have it be your normal shop set up and it goes with you.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

PNW District has a couple trailers that are used at most events. Auburn High School allowed us to use their very well tooled shop this year. We repaid the favor by fixing everything we could find to fix during our slow time. Nothing like having machinists with idle time to adjust, repair, and sharpen tools. In addition hundreds of students and teachers filed through the shop over the weekend... I felt like a tour guide at times. A current and retired teacher from the school was there also which was a huge help because they knew where everything is stored. It was a treat and I came home with some great ideas. I'd like to see other schools open their shops as it's easier than setting up the trailer, but I suspect most are reluctant, I would be also, but after seeing how the shop was left in better condition that worry is un-founded.

This little bandsaw... it's been in the PNW District trailer for a couple seasons. You'll notice it's been pimped out. Someone made the fence one weekend... and I added the knob another. I guess we like it. Not what I'd expect from an inexpensive, plastic bandsaw. It sees a lot of use. It does plastic, wood, and aluminum surprisingly well. It's mounted to a roll out work table that has a grinder, sander, and vices mounted to it.

The NC District shop usually has a bandsaw, belt sander, drill press, lathe, and a few bits and pieces like wrenches. The smaller items however are not usually loaned to teams to use (it might be the same in other districts but I don't know.) Everything is housed in the back of what looks like a semi truck trailer


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Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Hi RoboChair--

The idea of the temporary shop has a lot of merit- pretty hard to justify 50K of gear sitting in a trailer all year and used for only two months on weekends. The Holy Cow example cited previously uses equipment that's installed temporarily for the competition season, then moved back out to wherever it's normally used.

The ideas are endless: Community associations of interested machinists donating gear, local junior college support, temporary contributions by various individuals, outright donations, etc. The BigTable idea could be the same, with gear unbolted and put back in the shop or classroom as needed. Most large venues have forklifts, or one can be rented to move it.

A barrier exists to our good intentions: Liability. Many are restrained from putting their personal stuff out there for other's use for fear of violence by lawyers and courts. Creative policy and associations will probably need to be created to counteract this- non-profit organizations, limitations on who will use the equipment, etc., a fundamental issue to be decided before committing time and money to the effort. Get a good accountant and non-profit lawyer to fight the fights.

The main focus though is not getting geeked out with gear (which I tend to get), but how it points back to skill transference (teaching & learning).

Joe
Middle School Teacher

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Some cross-pollination from the Districts in California discussion thread--

BrendanB from Londonderry makes a good description of what happens at small events: ad-hoc, extraordinary but disjointed efforts by all to keep the machines operational, but distracting the one or two teams with the depth of equipment and skill to do their own work.

If. If. If CA goes to districts, we will see a model like that unless there's a concerted effort to provide for this side-show of effort. Especially for the "janitor closet" teams with no gear and few skills, having available a decent shop at the venue will keep them in the game when their junk breaks. If you've been in the game awhile, you've seen it- plywood and JB Weld bolt-ups built by MacGyver's children with lots of motivation but no skill--they need to be guided along by those of us on skill-rich teams having the capacity to help.

Joe
Junk Fixer

PS-- Wondering--would this kind of guidance reduce the team attrition percentages?

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

That mobile workshop is supplied/supported by George of Team 60 out of Kingman AZ. A real gentleman and a talented machinist...

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Below is what I posted in the other thread because I think you made my post sound more doom and gloom compared to the reality. ;)

My post was in response to a comment on the RIDE event this year not having a machine shop which has typically been provided by a team in NE who brings some of their tools to events in the area and wasn't able to that weekend. It was an extreme case and as the OP and I said everyone made it through just fine with several teams already having their own bandsaws, vices, drill presses, etc in attendance.

Several events up here have used the shops at the schools (example Windham) which was staffed by volunteers and one of the team's mentors who loves working on the machines.

As I mentioned too these events are shorter and with unbag time the needs of the machine shop have decreased over a normal three day regional with just your withholding allowance for new parts.

To a degree, yes it is more effort by teams in a district to make things run smoothly: teams bringing tools to supply machine shops, mentors & occasionally student volunteers staffing them, and sharing what you have but we all enjoy it and the district system has brought a lot of teams closer together which has been awesome!

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

I would hardly even call it more effort. It takes like 2 minutes to load the band saw you already own into the trailer you already rented for the drive you were already going to do and then like 2 more minutes to unload it. And when you compare the cost of that (Let's say 100 bucks to include in a few bandsaw blades) to the cost of a trailer shop ($1,000s to $10,000s) it's not even debatable which model is more practical and sustainable.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Something to remember is due to the power restrictions of many venues it's not always possible to run the machine shop off of the venues power. You also usually won't get 240v to run something like a tig welder. We have to use a large diesel and a secondary gas generator to power our machine shop trailer.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

But if you're doing a pot-luck machine shop someone has to coordinate who brings what and the resources at each event will differ greatly.

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Not wholly true. If you bring a VFD or a phase converter you could easily run 220v 3 phase, you just need somewhere to plug in that has a big enough breaker.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

That's kind of the problem. Ontario events (and others I'm sure) usually bring in a large generator to power lighting and pits but we aren't allowed to hook up to those. Simply finding an outlet near an acceptable area for welding is difficult. It's just another factor that needs to be considered

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Power should be included with the planning for the venue if you will be using a shop at the event which will be up to your planning committee. We have the machine shop trailer itself prepared so that it can hookup to a series of different setups because venues will change over time in a district model.

I wish I had a picture of the electrical setup but I do not.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

You should tell them that sharing is caring!

But yes I can see that issue. I see the following three options as possible solutions.

1. If you have a good relation with the venue, ask them if they would be willing to install an outlet for that kind of use, if there is available space in the breaker box. Either a 120V receptacle with a high amp rating, a 240V single, or a 220v 3-phase(which you can plug a separate circuit breaker set up to for any combination of the above mentioned types of power!). You will very likely still need a sizable extension cord to make this option work. Just give diplomacy a shot, you might be pleasantly surprised with the response. If they say no then all you have lost is a little time, if they say yes then sweet!

2. Rent a properly sized generator for your needs, you should be able to get one for the 2-3 days for somewhere between $150 and $300. You can find them with 240V single and if you ask around 220V 3-phase.

3. Just find out where you can plug into at the venue and bring extension cords to accommodate the required distance. If the venue is worried about your actual power usage, inform them of how much actual power you will likely use. Just because you have a lot of high draw equipment doesn't mean it will be running most of the time, a lot of it will get used for less than 25% of the time.

I'm sure there are other options as well, but it still mostly boils down to talking with the venue to see what they can provide you or bring your own generator.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

The Georgia Power machine shop at the state championship this year really saved us.

They had a band saw, a milling machine, a belt sander, and a variety of hand tools like a hacksaw, set of files, etc. Particularly their access to a milling machine plus skilled machinists capable of handling large pieces of aluminum was vital to our robot's mechanics, which wouldn't have worked at all without their help.

I think the most important thing for any machine shop to be able to machine metals, especially aluminum pieces, quickly. Say some vital part breaks during a match and there's no replacement in sight, having a new one within minutes is just about a godsend to a team in the heat of competition. If the machines (especially milling machine and band saw) can handle solid square extrusions (we had to have a piece made from 1x1" solid stock, ugh) then that should reasonably cover the vast majority of jobs that any team will need.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

The SBPLI Long Island regional iirc has a pretty nice machine shop on a trailer. I believe it is sponsored by FESTO who has a HQ local to us

The NYC regional has a very nice machine shop they set up inside the venue. It is fairly large and supplied by Con Edison every year.

I can not find a picture of either but both do some solid work. Neither of them however allow students to work iirc.

There is a lot of iirc as I have never actually used any of the machine shops at our regionals. A team I work closely with did use one at the NYC regional to cut igus sliders and the cut was very very clean.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

The Wisconsin Regional has provided a very good machine shop the past few years, with a drill press, band saw, belt sanders and the usual assortment of tools. I know that this past year they were prepared to help any teams with materials to construct bumpers if needed.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

This is fairly typical SOP for these shop set ups. Sadly we live in a hugely litigious society these days. I've managed to get to know the 2 NASA machine shop guys that operate in our region and talk enough shop to gain their trust. To the point they are willing to let me use their stuff in the trailer and/or borrow tools. It's been very useful at times. It makes me feel better when I show up and there is a line people and both guys are busy, I can do something real quick when I will not be in the way and I'm not taking time away from other teams.

Pro Tip: Get really good at doing technical drawings by hand(really nail the dimensioning and tolerance call-outs), the shop guys will be able to make your part quicker and easier. And they will really appreciate it. You can dimension a really bad sketch really well and still convey the proper info very clearly.

Re: Event Machine Shops
 

Thank you all for your most excellent observations and insight. No slight is meant on my part for any comments made by any of you.

One of our struggles here in the SoCal is the almost complete dismantling of what we call in other places Vocational Education or more simply Shop Class. That erosion affects our ability to convince administrators of the need to allow us to produce a FRC event at their school or within their school district(s). It's difficult for many of the academically-minded to grasp the need for skills in mechanical aptitude, wrench turning, welding, wiring, plumbing, etc.

We count schools as potential FRC event sites, but that does not get to the heart of the matter: Educators here expect every kid to get ready to go to the university and get a degree and pull themselves out of the educator's visualization of "underclass," associated in their minds with Blue Collar work. Anything less is a distraction, pulling down test scores at their school. Why bother with this sideshow (FRC) that messes up the school biosphere?

My frustration with the above has been how this kind of work is necessary and legitimate and a place needs to be found for it during the regular-day core of classes in the public school. My focus seems like a "sideshow of a sideshow," but the lack of interest by educators in this kind of education (FRC) has made for wider gaps in student's ability to employ themselves after obtaining the high school diploma.

Having these portable shops at venues whether District or Regional has opened the eyes of many school administrators and teachers about the need for teaching these skills. The spectacle in the playing arena is supported by the pits and these portable shops, and the whole thing is a circular ecosystem. Once admn/teachers/the educator intelligentsia grasp the concept we will start to get back what we've been cutting for the last forty years. That will in turn give us the ability to educate all young people in remunerative skills and lessen the so-called Poverty Gap.

Thanks all for volunteering your time for a kind of education lost in a lot of places in the USA.

Joe
Repurposer of Weird Gear