Why animation winners?
What about the 12-year teams?
If making a competitive event is your primary concern, wouldn't it be better to have all current year technical award winners? This would ensure that the most interesting/well made/innovative/technically advanced bots would be at "the championship"
I prefer the "nationals" mentality, not the "championship" mentality.

This would make for a more competitive competition, but would it truly be a better one? It all depends on your FIRST philosophy.

Think about what yours is, and decide whether the competition really is the most important part.

*Both arms raised frantically* Oooo, Oooo, that's us!

I'd like to see technical award winners,
and a mix of nationals and championship mentality.

There are only 6 recognized 12 year teams.

19 - Big Red Robotics
45 - Technokats
126 - Gael Force
190 - WPI
191 - Xcats
250 - Dynamos

*puzzled*
We just went year round spring 2002. How do you get recognized as year round?

different thing
 

Cheryl,

John is talking about a different thing entirely. "12 year teams" are the teams who have been involved in it every year since FIRST started in 1992. There was a big write up in the 2001 program about these teams. Also, we had a fancy-smancy FIRST pin made up in 2001 which listed these teams.

The TechnoKats are very proud to be one of these 6 teams. We are almost as proud to be a 12 year team than a National Champ (in '98).

Last year, there was a big debate about if these teams should automatically be qualified for the Championships. Many people disagreed that these teams should get this exemption, but FIRST again granted this exemption for 2003.

Andy B.

Re: different thing
 

Ahhh, now I get it.
I thought it was about the chairman's award focus on year round programs.
I think your 12 year teams should get the exemption....
And so should year round program teams :D .

So I'm evil...
 

How DO you get recognized as year round? And why should that make an exemption? I'm sure many teams will claim to be year round FIRST teams since it takes all year to fund raise the money for the registration. If FIRST thinks they are a very active year round team I am sure they will offer the Chairman's Award.

I'll stick to my guns- the Championship should be for teams who earn the slot in the current year by either winning a place through competition or being awarded a technical award for design.

Animation is a great thing but it has little to do with building a viable competitive robot. I don't think that should warrant a spot at the Championships. Sorry.

As for a team being 12 years old, or 13, or 14 or whatever. It is nice to recognize them on their anniversary but to forever roll out the red carpet? Come on. What about the teams who came in in the second year? or third year? I can think of some 2-3 year teams with terrific programs who would deserve equal recognition. The 12 year teams listed are all great teams but I hope they have great enough programs to stand on their merits rather than need a free ride.

Let the competition decide who goes to the Championships. It is the fairest way and least subjective. We can still all be friends and feel good about each other. And the regionals can be the fun events they have always been.

Don't hate me now!!

WC
:cool:

Re: So I'm evil...
 

Huh. Our year round program is that we meet 3xs a week, all our meetings our open house to the public, we're working on subsystems and other stuff, not much fundraising. Hope to have year round robotics' curriculum soon. Why an exemption (and do you mean exception?), cuz FIRST in the Chairman's Award seems to want to encourage year round activities. It's not just about a winning robot.

We've never competed in animation, so I don't know. Is there a national animation award?

Mmmm...recognizing them on anniversaries sounds right to me.

I'd still like to see some teams who haven't won have the opportunity to enrich and enjoy the nationals.

Nah. I think there's a lot of tolerance for loose screws.

Bingo.

If FIRST wants to move toward a truly competitive format, that qualification for a Championship event needs to occur through similarly competitive regionals. Grandfathering in teams that are old, or have won other awards, or have experienced past success doesn't nurture this competitive atmosphere. Instead, it rewards commitment.

This may or may not be a bad thing, again, depending on how you view FIRST.

I, too, would much rather see Nationals as an exhibition rather than a full-fledged battle to see who's best. Who's best, in reality, is of very little consequence. In truth, I can't remember the entirety of the alliance that won last year's Championship, let alone in prior years. For me, it's unimportant as the past four years have been very, very rewarding for me and I haven't won a single regional or technical award or Chairman's award or anything else. 810 does have, however, two Highest Seeded Rookie awards and a Rookie All-Star. But, in the grand scheme of things, those seem to be 'small' awards.

I used to compete, or try to, in flying model sailplanes. The Academy of Model Aeronautics has an interesting system for choosing who represents this country at international competitions while still having an event called "Nationals" or Nats.

Basically they have two separate competitions. If you want to compete internationally, then you go to special meets that are flown to internationally recognized rules. These are put on by various groups around the country who have shown they are qualified to do so. That is, they have the required equipment and personel who understand how to use it. You qualify at these meets for the final competition that is held a different place each year. The winners get the priviledge of paying their own way to Europe or someplace to represent the US at the World competition.

For those of us with merely ordinary ability that can't see thermals from the ground, there's Nats. Which is basically an excuse for people from all over the country to get together and swap stories about airplanes while pretending to compete. The only qualification is that your airplane meets the rules for the event you're flying, and that you signed up quick enough.

There is some prestige here in the US to winning Nats, but very often the best fliers don't attend, and most everybody knows it. In fact, in model sailplanes there has only been one guy who was both US National and World Champion at the same time.

Maybe we could have a similar system with Regionals leading to a Championship, but also having a National competition for anybody that wants to show up and has the money to do so. Maybe have the Nationals during the summer and more like a big off-season event.

just my $0.02

Sounds great!

competitive or social?
 

As FIRST growing larger and larger, suddenly we can't get every team across the country into a little high school gym anymore like we did 11 years ago. Ever since then, National which is now known as the Championship event (I will be using “C.E.” from now on), have grown in size and experience in terms of an event learning and trying new things every year. When FIRST first limited how many teams could attend Nats, we knew it will never be the same anymore.


Seems like there are two things people want out of the C.E.: a competition to determine the true Champion of the game, or a social gathering event where people see every other FIRST participant under the same roof and share their experience, knowledge, and robot, while competing in this event TOGETHER as a single group...

...

So, let me ask you this: What's more important to you? A truly competitive format, or a big social experience with every one else? Or, maybe it’s something else beside these? And, what do you hope to get out of C.E.?

Right now, I am not asking you guys to say which one is better. I just want to know, which you like more. No need to think about it too much… Just simple answers telling us, which format you want the C.E. to be, and what you want to get out of it.


I know people who want to go to Championship event just for the chance to be #1, while others are there to meet people and don't even hang out with their own team… There are truly many different people in the competition, and Nats was the perfect opportunity to see that. So, I know there are a lot of people with different opinions.

Please, do tell us what you think. Only a hand full of posting replies, and so much more readers out there who haven’t said anything.

Having been on both sides of the coin in this debate at one point or another, I'm going to stay out of it as much as I can. However, based on what I have quoted above, many of you can probably aready guess what it is I'm going to write here.

Basically, the reason the odd/even stuck around this year was for fairness - i.e. toward all those odd teams that threw up their arms last year when they found out that because they were not an even-numbered team, they had to work harder to compete in the championship. FIRST already knows about the discussions held here and elsewhere about teams' reactions to the whole odd/even qualification system(it was brought up at the team forum, if I remember correctly), and I would not be surprised if you saw a change in 2004. But for this year, I wouldn't count on it...

So what matters more?

ACreating a dominant robot and winning the national championship?

BBeing a solid citizen of FIRST. Promoting the values of FIRST to the community, your school and to other teams and winning the chairman's award?

C. Going to the nationals to go hang out a DIsneyworld?

I was under the impression the limitation on odd teams last year was because of limitations imposed by being at Disney. We are an even team, which meant we got a free ride to Epcot (even though we qualified off points anyway). I felt bad for all the odd numbered teams that didn't get to go. Especially for their seniors, who had to miss out on what probably would have been their best memory of high school. Now it comes around this year, and we are at a new location for Nationals. If this location is capable of handling all the teams, we should we limit them? I realize the teams that got locked out of Nationals last year would feel it's unfair, and it would be. But, to use a cliche' , two wrongs don't make a right. I would hope the odd numbered teams would be mature enough to realize that life doesn't always have to be fair. Why should you wish misfortune unto all the even teams just because you had to suffer it. I realize this sounds self-serving coming from an even numbered team member, but it needs to be said. If there is no logistical reason this year to perpuate the odd/even rule, why should we. This will be my forth year in robotics and I want to go to Nationals and compete against everyone.