Chief Delphi - [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1605322)

Why?

efoote, could you explain how Stop Build Day is supported by the strategic pillars of FIRST?

Ensure Sustainability.

EDIT-
Ensure Sustainability: It’s really hard to grow and impact more kids if our foundation is not sustainable. This comment applies equally well to our teams, partners, supporters and FIRST overall. With everything we do, we must think about the sustainability of our programs and solutions. Sustainability also has many dimensions, including financial resources, human resources and other capabilities. I encourage each of you to think about how this applies to your role within our community---who or how will your effort be continued if you are not there? Who will support your team if a long-time Sponsor goes away or if a Mentor retires and moves away?

Mentor/Student/Team burnout is a very real thing. Stop build day, when implemented properly, can avoid that.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1605326)

Ensure Sustainability.

great post d00d

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1605317)

Sure but lets instead have North keep the bag and South test out the unbag. ::rtm::

+1 :)

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1605327)

wow really thorough explanation

as someone who can appreciate a great troll job i must also criticize a blatantly lazy one

edit: really regretting reneging on saying i am done with this digital armpit

ChiefDelphi is what you make it. ::ouch::

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1605330)

ChiefDelphi is what you make it. ::ouch::

up to/around 48 hours all posts can be what you make them even after they have been quoted

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

please
close
this
thread

ok bye

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmileH (Post 1605335)

please
close
this
thread

ok bye

Why?

Aside from a few tangents and loose personal attacks, it's actually been fairly on topic and productive with many people thoroughly explaining their reasoning for and against the change.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1605334)

up to/around 48 hours all posts can be what you make them even after they have been quoted

Typing on a smartphone and copying/pasting isn't very easy. What you accused me of laziness was a mistake that was corrected in 3 minutes. I'd appreciate it if you toned it down.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1605337)

Typing on a smartphone and copying/pasting isn't very easy. What you accused me of laziness was a mistake that was corrected in 3 minutes. I'd appreciate it if you toned it down.

It's ok to wait to write things on the internet. Not like the gremlins in the sewer are going to eat your hands before you get time to type something out at a computer. There's also a preview button that you can/should use before every post you make if you don't want to make mistakes.

--Moving On--

Here is how the two schools of thought compare in their support of the strategic pillars of FIRST:

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1605326)

Ensure Sustainability: It’s really hard to grow and impact more kids if our foundation is not sustainable. This comment applies equally well to our teams, partners, supporters and FIRST overall. With everything we do, we must think about the sustainability of our programs and solutions. Sustainability also has many dimensions, including financial resources, human resources and other capabilities. I encourage each of you to think about how this applies to your role within our community---who or how will your effort be continued if you are not there? Who will support your team if a long-time Sponsor goes away or if a Mentor retires and moves away?

Mentor/Student/Team burnout is a very real thing. Stop build day, when implemented properly, can avoid that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1605200)

That's a very good idea.

How Does Abolishing "Stop Build Day" Fit FIRST's Strategic Pillars

Expand Access and Participation, Broad and Deep:

A Short build season is one of the hardest parts about FRC for new teams. More time allows for more time to get help and work with veteran teams. Abolishing “Stop Build Day” makes FRC less scary for new teams.
More out of bag time allows for more demonstrations and scrimmage events during the season.
Level the field for international teams: Teams outside of North America have a very hard time competing at multiple events. By abolishing “Stop Build Day” new areas with very opportunities for events could hold smaller unofficial scrimmages and gain experience during the season.

Increase Diversity:

In conjunction with expanding access to new areas around the world we will dramatically add to our cultural diversity of the program.
By abolishing “Stop Build Day” we are able to dramatically reduce the cost of fielding a competitive team making it less expensive for global expansion and deep expansion to schools and areas that cannot currently afford an FRC team.

Scale Efficiently:
- The elite teams in FRC are amazing.
- New teams need every advantage they can get and one of the biggest is how open and caring FRC teams are towards new teams. By abolishing “Stop Build Day”:

Veteran mentors could help more young teams since losing a day of build is less important when there are more of them.
Young teams have more time to learn, compete, and be inspired by veteran teams during the season.
Local scrimmages and practice sessions could reduce the need for dramatic increases in events to meet team demand as more and more teams wish to compete more often.
More time to fix the problems introduced by inexperienced teams. Pre-inspection events can be held prior to an event that allow young teams to get ready for their first inspection and not waste precious practice time

Ensure Sustainability:
Spending countless resources traveling to multiple events, building multiple robots and spare parts for them is not a sustainable solution.
- Abolish “Stop Build Day” and

Teams can spend more of their money on growing their STEM program to reach more students.
Have more time to support and elevate young and rookie teams.
Hold demonstrations and workshops to increase team growth in their areas.
Hold in season scrimmages that let teams compete more often for less cost to the program.

Achieve Broad Recognition:
The best way I can think of to achieve broad recognition is to increase the level of play on the field. Spectators don’t want to watch robots that are inoperable, uncontrollable, and aren’t meeting game objectives.
- By abolishing “Stop Build Day” we can

Increase the level of play on the field.
Reduce the number of robots that are inoperable during a match.
Give teams more time with their robot to iterate and improve when there are errors.
Give teams more time to work on programming and increase the challenge that the majority teams can meet.
Put on a better show!

#BanTheBag

Which argument is stronger?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaulZan11 (Post 1605308)

If the results of are the survey are mixed, I'd suggest a one year trial run of eliminating bagging the robot. Teams attending the North/East Championship do not bag their robots while those attending the South/West Championship still bag it. Survey the teams after the season and see which sample enjoyed the season more.

Almost perfect. Just reverse the regions.;)

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1605350)

Almost perfect. Just reverse the regions.;)

Yeah? Why punish the south champs even more...?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1605251)

My experience doing software design has mostly been along these soft-deadlines you mention. I worked for a medical device company for a long time. We would have a hard deadline for the *.0 releases, and have to get everything finished for them so we could send them to testing and then to the FDA on time. But once they were sent off to testing, we immediately started working on the *.1 release, fixing everything that was wrong (ie identified in testing) with the *.0 release. And ultimately, the users never saw the *.0 release, we were able to go straight to the field with the *.1 release instead.

Jon, I agree that *.1 releases are critical for getting FIRST robots that can effectively play the game and are fun to watch. Do we agree that Jim's proposal is a much more effective way of teams getting that *.1 release than the status quo?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

I'll chime in on this, since I have already said it to folks at FIRST and friends who have asked my opinion:

As a owner of a company who makes money from teams who build second robots and as a 20 year FIRST mentor, my opinion is to get rid of bag day.

My reasons are similar to what Allen Gregory IV has stated (among many other people) so eloquently. However, I do understand the people who still want bag day. Weighing the two options, I vote for no bag.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Well the other Frank just announce it will not happen this year.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1605395)

Well the other Frank just announce it will not happen this year.

Link to relevant blog post.