Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

My experience doing software design has mostly been along these soft-deadlines you mention. I worked for a medical device company for a long time. We would have a hard deadline for the *.0 releases, and have to get everything finished for them so we could send them to testing and then to the FDA on time. But once they were sent off to testing, we immediately started working on the *.1 release, fixing everything that was wrong (ie identified in testing) with the *.0 release. And ultimately, the users never saw the *.0 release, we were able to go straight to the field with the *.1 release instead.

You see this all the time with major software releases. Just look at the iPhone - version 9.0 came out Sept 16 last year, followed quickly by 9.0.1 a week later, and 9.0.2 a week after that.

So the way FIRST currently runs does align with some of what we see in the real world. It may not be applicable to every job or industry, but it is still applicable to some.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I think getting rid of stop build day will be for the best. Teams can still set whatever build schedule works best for them and, as many have iterated, lower resource teams can practice/refine their robot up until competition time without the benefit of a practice robot.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I guess we need to look at why stop build day exists in the first place. Is it to limit resources (time) to balance the playing field? Hasn't worked. Is it intended to add an artificial dead line to increase the challenge? Hasn't worked. So it seems you either need to add rules to make stop build day more than a date on the calendar or get rid of it. Or recognize that within FRC there are teams competing at different levels. The driven teams are always put more energy into the game than less driven teams. Maybe their top level goals are different as well.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Completely agree. This is like a coach cheating in little league baseball, what kind of example does that set?

People make me sad.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I might be in the CD minority, but I appreciate stop build day. It's easier to tell members that "we expect you to participate during the 6 weeks we have to build the robot for competition" rather than "you have to participate all the way up to the first competition, and then maybe the second competition, and then maybe more until championship" etc.

Same thing for mentors, and other volunteers. It doesn't make a difference for the hard core enthusiasts, but it definitely makes it easier for the casual participant (the people not on CD in the off-season :P) which is the majority of the FIRST population.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I think that is what causes a lot of the divide on this subject. Some teams work for 6 weeks then stop. We tell our students they are expected to work until the end of the season. Our season ends when we have not qualified to compete in any more competitions.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Same.

I believe some of the best parts of season are when we travel to practice with other teams during the regional season. It's a lot of fun, and the teams get a lot out of it.

Unfortunately only high resource teams can currently afford this advantage.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

From experience in the past, there are quite a few students involved in my team that simply would not join if they were told it was a full time 12 week commitment instead of 6, even if the last 6 weeks was not really full time and at a reduced load.

But once you get them hooked, they're in for the full build season and full competition season, and off season and they re-prioritize their schedules around FIRST.


If FIRST kept the same "6 week build season" but relaxed requirements about what can and can't happen during off weeks during the competition season, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Survey was super confusing. I read and re-read every question, still not sure what they were asking. My random stop build points:

1) Removing the stop build day does not remove the deadline. Your first competition is your deadline. I would argue that removing stop build day is more "real world" than the stop build loophole. Car racing, sports, design competitions - everyone prepares right up to the start of the competition.

2) When I first started mentoring for FRC and heard that others build practice robots to get around the stop build day, it didn't feel right. Either you say stop and mean stop or don't do it at all.

3) I believe the mythical "6-week build" concept is mostly about a catchy marketing phrase. It rolls off the tongue and sounds great in the elevator. Then after you've set the hook, you explain the concept of building a second robot so that you can continue practicing, their accepting smile becomes a "what"?

4) For those teams/mentors that want to stop after 6 weeks that's still an option without an official stop build day. At least you won't be lulled into thinking that other teams are really stopping work after stop build day.

5) Several years ago when we only had a few kids and a couple mentors, I remember everyone working flat out until bag day to finish the competition robot. The kids and mentors were all exhausted. We didn't have the bandwidth to build 2 robots simultaneously. We'd take a couple days off then peel ourselves off the floor and have to start building the practice robot. It certainly paid off, but felt so unnecessary. I would have much rather continued working and practicing on the competition robot.

6) Competitions would soooo much less stressful. Teams would be able to help other teams more. We would actually have time to walk around and see other teams and the exhibits. I think the level of performance of all teams would increase. How many times have you said or heard, "it worked perfectly on our practice robot"?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Why does FIRST need to do this? Why can't you just do it on your team?

And think of how many more robots would show up and be able to do something instead sit there in the middle of the field the entire match (of course we would still have some that do that anyway).

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

This post is advocating lying to students and parents.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I was going to post a long write-up of my thoughts on this topic, but you basically just summed up everything I was going to say for me. :D

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

If that's how you or anyone else interpreted my post, then I didn't form the post well enough.


We tell our robotics students that to be on the team and to go to competitions, they need to participate every weekday during build season, which is 6 weeks long.

If we told our students that to be on the team, the need to participate every day during the season (including weekends), which is 12 weeks long, there would be many students that would not join because of that time commitment.

After the stop build date, we don't require or even expect every student to participate between stop build date and competition, but those that participated through the 6 week build season are allowed to travel with the team to competitions.

There are many students that would not sign up for 12 weeks that end up participating daily through the 12 week period because they're hooked on FIRST.

It's an easier sell. It's easier to get casual participation - say a shop teacher, someone required from the school for a school team to function. We need you every day for 6 weeks, then a competition, then the year is over. The stop build day makes it easier for mentors to say, "that's it, we're done."

Removing the stop build day entirely makes the time commitment bigger and a harder sell for new members, new mentors, and new teams.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Imagine If all teams were inspected before practice matches started? There might be a rush and a line-up at inspection immediately after the pits open the first day! The horror!

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I wish that was the problem we had now. That should be like a goal.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Related thread: Zondag steps up to the plate and knocks it out of the park.

Dr. Joe J.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'm generally for eliminating stop build day. My only concerns with it is that it does serve as an important milestone for probably several people in FIRST who are involved in capacities beyond mentorship. If we have an unrestricted season or potentially even the 8 hrs of unbag weekly proposed by Jim of the Killer Bees - it'd be harder to peel me away from my team to volunteer for an event. If we're just working with the practice bot and a 30 lb withholding allowance, it seems easier to leave it to the hands of particular subsystems. If it's potentially the whole robot, I'd want to be around. Maybe that's just me and I'm overbearing/controlling.

That said, I think anyone that thinks things would be less stressful for any reason is fooling themselves. Yes, it would enable teams that are capable to help teams that are struggling more (inviting teams without a field to come do driving practice and the like), but as Parkinson's law states, the work fills to the time allowed. Top tier teams are already pushing themselves to the limits and things won't change (much) for them. Teams trying to develop into year in and year out contenders will have better robots, but will be just as stressed. If unrestricted robot access would have let you complete that "1 more thing" this year, all that would happen is you would move on to that next "1 more thing". That's what pulls us into FIRST in the first place. The only place where I see there being objectively less stress is for teams in an area that can get pre-inspected and are willing to do so. I think a major problem is that many of the teams that would benefit largely from being pre-inspected will likely not see or respond to emails setting that time up, or are far away from other teams where getting someone to do a pre-inspection would be tough. Additionally teams far away from a team with the resources to build a field for practice time will still be hindered. How many teams are far enough away from a practice field that they really still won't be prepared for competition?

Even with all the above though, bag day seems to be a detriment your average FRC team.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

The robot inspectors would love to have to deal with that problem. Much better than trying to get a robot to pass its inspection so it can participate in seeding mathes.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I think exactly the opposite is true. It's easier to sell a lower level commitment for a longer period of time than it is to sell a "total immersion" commitment for 6 weeks.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I don't understand. How does removing Stop Build Day make you change your team's work schedule?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

With Stop Build Day - robot goes into a bag per the rules, majority of the team is done until competition

Without Stop Build Day - robot gets worked on right up until competition, majority of the team works until competition.

Yes, teams can limit themselves and self police, but practically speaking that's not how it will work. For some teams, that's not even how it works now.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

You're currently competed in districts... You already get unbag windows and can have the majority of the team continuing work if they desire. If you're not currently doing that, it's a choice you're making.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Your entire post was spot on for me, but this one best describes it for me.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'm not arguing against unbag windows, heck give every team 168 hours of unbag time per week during competition season. But I want the stop build day because it's a natural time for teams to reorganize and provide relief for casual participants.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

If the results of are the survey are mixed, I'd suggest a one year trial run of eliminating bagging the robot. Teams attending the North/East Championship do not bag their robots while those attending the South/West Championship still bag it. Survey the teams after the season and see which sample enjoyed the season more.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

What about teams that attend an event from the other side?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

"You have to bag your robot at this time on this day, but then can immediately unbag it to continue working on it."

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

For one season, I think you could restrict teams traveling outside their Champs-split region (or at least prevent non-bag teams traveling into a bag region).

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'd say you're already self-policing by not mandating your students continue coming after six weeks. If you keep doing exactly that (only mandate work schedule for the first six weeks), you'll likely end up in roughly the same situation you're currently in. Do you disagree?

I really don't think most teams are limiting their work schedule because of Stop Build. If they want to work more, then they're already working more. If they don't want to work more, nothing is going to make them work more. This change, in my mind, mostly makes that work more time- and cost-efficient.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Hours and work schedule I agree, but the team would feel differently about it.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Sure but lets instead have North keep the bag and South test out the unbag. ::rtm::

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

The 30 lb withholding allowance already doesn't make sense, so...

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

One of the advantages of how we run the District System in the PNW is that there are no practice matches on Day 0. Day 0 is all about getting inspected.

Because of that 15-20 minutes after the pits open the line starts to form at the scale and as they complete the weigh in and sizing check teams sign up for inspection. The vast majority of teams do complete inspection that night. Yes there are times when we have a team or two that were are scrambling to get into compliance or conditional compliance before the first match.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Why?

efoote, could you explain how Stop Build Day is supported by the strategic pillars of FIRST?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'm as confused as you...

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Ensure Sustainability.

EDIT-
Ensure Sustainability: It’s really hard to grow and impact more kids if our foundation is not sustainable. This comment applies equally well to our teams, partners, supporters and FIRST overall. With everything we do, we must think about the sustainability of our programs and solutions. Sustainability also has many dimensions, including financial resources, human resources and other capabilities. I encourage each of you to think about how this applies to your role within our community---who or how will your effort be continued if you are not there? Who will support your team if a long-time Sponsor goes away or if a Mentor retires and moves away?


Mentor/Student/Team burnout is a very real thing. Stop build day, when implemented properly, can avoid that.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

great post d00d

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

+1 :)

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

ChiefDelphi is what you make it. ::ouch::

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

up to/around 48 hours all posts can be what you make them even after they have been quoted

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

please
close
this
thread

ok bye

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Why?

Aside from a few tangents and loose personal attacks, it's actually been fairly on topic and productive with many people thoroughly explaining their reasoning for and against the change.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Typing on a smartphone and copying/pasting isn't very easy. What you accused me of laziness was a mistake that was corrected in 3 minutes. I'd appreciate it if you toned it down.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

It's ok to wait to write things on the internet. Not like the gremlins in the sewer are going to eat your hands before you get time to type something out at a computer. There's also a preview button that you can/should use before every post you make if you don't want to make mistakes.

--Moving On--

Here is how the two schools of thought compare in their support of the strategic pillars of FIRST:


Which argument is stronger?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Almost perfect. Just reverse the regions.;)

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Yeah? Why punish the south champs even more...?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Jon, I agree that *.1 releases are critical for getting FIRST robots that can effectively play the game and are fun to watch. Do we agree that Jim's proposal is a much more effective way of teams getting that *.1 release than the status quo?

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'll chime in on this, since I have already said it to folks at FIRST and friends who have asked my opinion:

As a owner of a company who makes money from teams who build second robots and as a 20 year FIRST mentor, my opinion is to get rid of bag day.

My reasons are similar to what Allen Gregory IV has stated (among many other people) so eloquently. However, I do understand the people who still want bag day. Weighing the two options, I vote for no bag.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Well the other Frank just announce it will not happen this year.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Nothing like getting our hopes up... :(

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I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I actually thought the poll was seemingly built towards people against bag and tag. And no, I seriously doubt this is what FIRST doing. They've been very open with their reasoning for doing things over the last few years (even is the community doesn't always agree with it).

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

The poll has been open for less than a day. I highly doubt this is a measured response to unexpected poll numbers. It's much more likely that the poll was to gauge opinions for future seasons.

He probably didn't initially mention that the poll wouldn't effect 2017 because of the numerous times he had already announced Stop Build Day would be continuing for 2017. Just a week or so ago he even confirmed the specific time.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

BanTheBag.Spectrum3847.org

34 slides on why we need to abolish "Stop Build Day".

A lot of it it is details on how teams are currently building well past this artificial build limit. Also some counter arguments to the most common arguments for keeping the status quo. Even a brief discussion of the fact that there is little we can do to enforce these rules anyway.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I agree the challenge is cool. In 2013, 2014, and 2015 our team did not finish a robot by stop build. So, I set our "Stop Build Day" to the end of week 4. A lot of members believed me the entire year no one actually calculating the amount of weeks. It was also fun telling people we still have 2 and a half weeks once they thought they hit stop build day.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

What would prevent you from still challenging yourself and your team to finish in ~45.5 days (we don't have 6 weeks). An open bag gives every team the right to choose how long they spend on their robot prior to putting on the field for their first match, assuming they start after kickoff. You can still acquire bags and zip ties*. Removing stop build just allows the teams who currently are struggling to continue to work after the build season, a little reprieve on draining their resources.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I'd just like to mention one more thing that could play an impact: how we talk about FRC. A lot of times, when I'm describing FRC to people not involved with it, a big part I mention is the 6 weeks aspect. I think that really drives home the point that not only are we doing something really cool and hard, but also in a very limited amount of time. I definetly think that for outreach, the "6 weeks" aspect helps in attracting people to an even cooler thing. Something to think about.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I really agree. When pitching FRC to my peers or strangers, and I show them our bot, they always ask "how long did that take you guys to build? several months?" The expression they have when I reply with 6 weeks is awesome.

Being able to challenge ourselves, and doing everything possible to get every last bit built within that time period is just plain fun. I mean sure, we are still working after build season end, but those "6 weeks" are truly super fun and worth it. I would not want to get rid of it.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

There is nothing stopping us from setting that limit, but if you had the option to keep working or stop earlier then most of the other teams, you would obviously keep working. The point is that given there is a set deadline vs a general time frame personally pushes me harder.

Another issue with abolishing this is nothing is stopping a team from waiting until comp season to see what the best robot is and build that exact robot. It would eliminate originality. The current set up allows you to copy basic mechanisms I.e can grabbers but keep your robot basically the same.

I feel that the stop build day gives each student a possibility to think creatively and come up with an original design. Now I'm not saying that every team would do that but the option is there.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

But it's a lie. We don't have 6 weeks even if teams stopped right at "Stop Build Day" it's 45 days 12 Hours . If we are lying already, we can just keep lying after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

While I disagree with the fact that only minor changes (like can grabbers) can be made (because, I have seen teams basically rebuild their bot over a period of 3 regionals). I completely agree with the deadline part. Having a 6 week crunch period just generally causes me to focus much more. For example, If a teacher gives us a research project due in 4 weeks, people probably won't start working on it dedicatedly till like week 3. But if she says we only have a few days, then you can bet that project is all students will be doing.

And yes I know people can counter argue that with "but if you were dedicated enough than you would focus yourself even without a deadline.", lets be real here. While that is the ideal thing to do. Very few High school students are capable of doing that

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Okay Mr. Gregory I'm starting to think that you are just completely trolling all of us now. Especially with that last reply (no disrespect). That doesn't seem like a statement you would say normally.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Let's be honest here, do people really care exactly how long we spend? Six weeks is an approximation. One good enough for PR purposes.
Example: If I tell you each of my classes is 42 minutes and 30 seconds, is that helpful? No, it's more helpful to just say 45 minutes. That's not lying.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

That deadline doesn't exist now. Many many teams are building well past the "deadline". The only teams that aren't either don't have the resources or are choosing not to.

There is something stopping them from doing it well. FRC Robots are hard and expensive. Would some teams try this, probably. Would they win a world title unlikely.

Do teams rebuild their robots in the likeness or other robots during the competition season already? Yes of course they do. In 2015 the robot we built during build season never even saw a single match of FRC competition. We stripped it down completely and built a new robot based on designs we saw. It's already happening, you can't avoid something that already exists. There are countless other examples of full in season rebuilds using inspiration from other teams.

The option to do that is already there, and very few people take it. Just like very few people would take it if we got rid of "Stop Build Day".

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Lack of resources is one of the things we struggle with as well. We have very few dedicated mentors on our team (many of them are parents that float in and out) and very few members to boot. As a result, we meet nearly every night and weekend just to scrape a bot together. If build season were extended, we would have to continue that pace for much longer. I can give my time for robots for six weeks, but it's hard on my personal life, let alone adding four or more weeks to that. On the other hand, if we're not there, the students can't work, and that'd be doing a disservice to them. Eliminating bag and tag is not a fix for all teams in this position.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Taken from Jim Zondag's excellent paper. Discussion on the paper is here.


Claiming six weeks when so many teams use the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, practice bots, multiple competitions, and more to extend their build season isn't just PR cover up, it's a lie.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I think the idea here is that's it's more of a personal (or team) challenge within the team, not outside it. I know I definetly enjoy build season as a challenge that not only challenges me in the robotics area, but also my time management skills, etc.

To be fair, FIRST is advertised as being "The hardest fun you'll ever have"

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I understand, my point is that if it's internal, removing HQ's "Stop Build Day" doesn't prevent teams from implementing their own.

I understand that meeting more is hard. But the idea that you are using the same amount of time as every other team just isn't true. Teams are already building well past this "Stop Build Time". You could still stop at 45.5 days, if that's what you are currently choosing to do.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Meeting more is not hard for us. All of us are super dedicated, even working on code and stuff into wee hours in the night at our respective homes. We will do anything that could help us win. But that said, I still say that we need bag day. I see it as a challenge that teaches students valuable lessons in time management and crunch time that they can't learn in many other places.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

In all honesty, given extra time, would a team (no matter what they say about liking stop build day) actually stop building based on a internal bag day? I agree with some of your points Mr. Gregory. But I think the advantages of bag day outweigh the advantages of no bag.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

You really lost me.

You want a day but you wont follow your own; arguing, "would a team actually stop building." That makes sense but then why do you want stop build day. There would still be a hard deadline. Its your first event.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Oh I absolutely understand and agree with you that teams don't use the same amount of time. My point was rather that teams would be, in a way, obligated to through competitive pressure and passion to help students get the best FIRST experience possible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it would require a significant change in how we deal with an already problematic level of mentor burn out.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Aye, be honest here. Be brutally honest. If people won't stop building based on an external bag day with some (albeit limited) enforcement, via a variety of legal methods, what makes some people think that people will stop building based on "We think we should stop building?"

Right. Not gonna happen.

So the question isn't "Do we remove Stop Build Day or not?" The question is really "Do we remove Stop Build Day OR do we put in some rules changes that enforce it--like, for example, reduced withholding, no out-of-bag time at all... Or even *gasp* shipping the robot to a neutral site?" Let's see... Shipping robots to all events not in districts ended for 2012 (and in districts even sooner)... out-of-bag started in MI District system in 2009... and witholding has been a thing since about 2009 if I recall correctly. Practice robots have been around since at least '04--and would be very hard to get rid of. Yeah. Not really a question.

I'm not really for removing the Stop Build Day. On the other hand, I can see where the suggestions to remove it are coming from, and sympathize. But then I wonder whether removing it will make things better or worse...

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

To the previous comments, I'm not trolling anyone. I truly believe that FIRST (HQ and the community) needs to stop telling people it's a 6 week build season. If that is helping us bring in sponsor dollars we are being dishonest. I know of few teams that don't use their WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE to at least do some work on their robots past the "Stop Build Day". I've tried to stop saying it or at least correct myself when I do, it's hard after all these years.

Do you currently not feel pressure to work on your WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE past the stop build date? The rules in place today allow all teams to continue to work on the robot. The rule book encourages development of programming software after the "Stop Build Day" after the date as well.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Even if you expanded the definition of the build period to the start of competition season (because at that point, your robot should likely be "built", maybe just not working perfectly yet) even if you still allowed unlimited access, you could still say "8 weeks" and I would bet the reactions would not be that much different. It wouldn't be an entirely inaccurate thing to say to people, and I don't think any reasonable observer expects teams to NOT make improvements to their machines as the competition season progresses.

In reality, if you define build season as "when you stop all work on the robot", build season, as the rules work today, runs from January till your last competition, as late as April.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Note, I never said that we need to have exactly a 6 week stop build date. I am not stating an opinion on whether or not to MOVE the stop date. I just don't like have NO build date at all, and being allowed to work as much as we want directly on the bot between regionals.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I will grant you that; we do spend time after stop build working on code and other small projects. However, it is with a much lower intensity than working on the actual bot simply because it is small projects.

I do see the benefits to eliminating bag and tag and I'd like to see it happen. I just foresee some drawbacks worth mentioning.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Nah. Not so much.

Scoring points in matches is simply not the correct proxy/metric to use to gauge the success of FRC teams.

There are at least two kinds of people in the world. I am one kind.

Side note, I'm really, really growing weary of seeing the words "competitive" and "elite" in discussions like this. To me they are red flags. YMMV.

PS: I hope FIRST soon realizes the survey's results will be worse than useless. They will be harmful, not neutral or helpful.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

We do work on the allowance, but it does limit the teams, instead of allowing free reign on the bot. With some of the withholding allowance we made this year, it took us most of the thursday before a regional to get it properly mounted and tested on the bot. Which costed us valuable practice time. We effectively traded practice time to add more functions to the bot. It would not have been the same "challenge" if we were allowed to work on the bot the whole time.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

The difference here is that no auto testing/driving practice can be done, which is typically the bulk of what needs to be done towards the end of build season.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Of course it would not be the same challenge, that's why we should get rid of the bag, because it's an artificially harder challenge for lower and mid tier teams than it is for the best teams in the world. Having more money, members, mentor, and resources makes it possible to build longer and produce a better robot.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

OK. Change/fix it by eliminating those things.

Eliminating SBD is hardly the only course available.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

No, but eliminating SBD is the one that is probably the least-disruptive to existing team build schedules and the one that is least-likely to continue to impact teams in a regressive way.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

For an example of this, I recall that 254 loaned HQ their 2014 World Championship robot to be put on display in Manchester. With the knowledge of that paired with the idea that FIRST touts the idea of the 6 week build season in marketing endeavors, imagine someone pitching a potential supporter of FIRST and including in the pitch

*points*
"Can you believe kids built that in 6 weeks?"
*disbelief on part of potential supporter*

In reading 254's documentation, you would know that disbelief at that quote is well-founded.

We have the habit of telling people how this will be the hardest thing their child will have ever done in their educational career (even though they go to one of the most rigorous schools in the country, the greater your participation on 422, the greater difficulty a student will have at succeeding at much else besides the robots and school). We are still able to bring together a large, strong, and passionate team that performs less bad every year for the most part.

More power to teams that actually tell potential stakeholders you only meet for 45 days plus events and actually stick to that. If you are a team that tells potential stakeholders you only meet for 45 days for build plus events and then you don't, and you keep doing that? You are part of the problem.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Please feel free to propose other courses of action.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

I believe Jim Zondag's paper had something in it about giving all teams 8 hours of unbag time each week, to offset the advantage teams get from working on the bot at competitions.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

He was suggesting eliminating WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, and other ways that teams are able to build longer. I don't believe he was suggesting other ways to expand robot access. I believe Zondag's proposal would be a great step forward.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

He did.

Let's start with the Witholding Allowance. 30 lb? .25 robot? Nope. Particularly with the amount of COTS items these days, that's a LOT. 12 lb, or .1 robot, would make teams think a lot more about what they're holding back to work on. No limits on raw materials/COTS items--but, you know, you do need to do work on those at the event for them to be useful, even if it is just duct-taping them to your robot. (That's just an example weight, BTW--could be 15, 10, 5, 0... less than 30, though.)

Eliminating multiple competitions is an answer--but, TBH, the howling would pretty quickly convince HQ that that was a very, very bad idea. The "obvious" alternative would be districts for everybody, mind you--not that I'm opposed to that. (Since X cannot be eliminated, it shall henceforth be required, and all that.) BUT, you'd have to get rid of the unbag time before events. (Or count it as part of build season--as in, we have a 6-week build season, plus some quick check time right before competition.)

Practice robots aren't going to be easy to eliminate. There's practically nothing that can be done other than to specifically tell the teams that "We are putting in a rule that says you cannot have a practice robot, and we are making you sign a legally binding document at inspection that says that you adhered to all the rules." And then, of course, trust that they follow the rule. (And I would take a pretty good gamble that if Frank made THAT announcement, the Team Advocate--and Frank--would be swamped within 47 minutes by angry team emails.) Wouldn't try that.

Eliminating Stop Build isn't the only course of action. But continuing to insist that it is means that you've got blinders on.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Hmmmm, maybe return to some of the the previous rules that governed robot construction, give or take some tweaks different from the current tweaks?

Maybe, implement some suggestions I proposed in other similar discussions.

This is an old topic that is a magnet for specious arguments, and is a long dead horse; constantly rehashed here on CD by a tiny, egregiously-lopsided fraction of the total FRC participants.* I haven't spotted a single new idea or argument in this iteration of the conversation.**

Surely neither I nor any other proponents or opponents if SBD/etc.need to repeat what has already been said a zillion times before. Instead this entire thread should be just a collection of hyperlinks to past posts.

What the subject needs is some rigorous, properly-conducted research by an unbiased investigator(s), advised by the people who created, and still guide, the program.

Doesn't that sound reasonable? It's hard to argue against asking for good science/engineering experiments; but it's easy to argue that this thread isn't going to turn into one.

Blake
* I'm painting myself with this broad brush, along with painting the rest of us.
** I read many posts. I skimmed through many posts. I might have missed something novel among them. I'm human, and not perfect.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

The course of action we are talking about is a way to make claiming "robots built in 6 weeks" be the truth. "Stop Build Day" is a separate issue at this point. Unless we can actually stop all robot building and not allow changes on the robot at around Noon eastern time 42 days after kickoff. I don't see how we can do that. There are other possible options, we could magically have everyone compete right at the end of build season, it would require 100s of simultaneous events world wide. I don't think its in any way realistic but at that point I could see "6 week" being the truth.

A bigger point, it shouldn't matter. Very few teams meet every single of day of build season anyway. "6 weeks" is a talking point that has become a sales pitch and a false belief for new teams, mentors, and members. We don't need to hold this "6 week" thing so near and dear. It's not special. Building a ~150lbs robot in around 4 months (113 Days last year) with a group of high school students and mentors is still very impressive.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Looking at these two quotes (and some of the discussion going on in the last ~2 dozen replies), it seems there was a bit of a ships-passing-in-the-night going on with the whole discussion about "6 weeks is/isn't a lie" and self-imposed limits.

Part of the argument that Allen presents in his 34 slides is that the 6 weeks (his 45.5 days) is already a sort of "super" internal limit. "Super" in that there are some hoops to jump through, but it is still in many ways an internal limit: each team chooses how much time and effort they put into development after Stop Build Day. Some teams choose to actually stop, some teams (as nerdrock mentioned above) choose to work on small improvements and modifications. Some, however, choose to make radical changes eg rebuilding entire robots at competition (speaking from experience, under Allen's mentorship myself and the other members of the 3847 pit crew completely changed our robot at the 2015 Arkansas Regional).

This is what's being referred to as the "myth of the 6 week build season" - the idea that it's as long and grueling as you make it.

If the man-hours given to development are already a matter of self-regulation and evaluation of a team's own response to that "competitive pressure," and if each team already responds in a different degree, there's no reason to expect that to change if we #BanTheBag. Teams will continue to respond to the same competitive pressure, albeit with a barrier removed that improves convenience. A team that already wasn't driven to bring in a new subsystem or some spare parts under withholding probably won't be that much more likely to actually go through with those plans under a Bag-Free regime, it just makes it easier for the teams that already wanted to but found it difficult to do so (lack of resources to test on practice robot, difficulty in preparing modifications for a robot you can't test them on, etc.).

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Parkinson's law says otherwise, "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion". If my team has an 8 week build season, we will use all 8 weeks of it. Furthermore, I speculate that we would require the entire team to participate for all 8 weeks, which would prevent students with other activities from joining the team.

The stop build day is the end of our build season. If the stop build day was removed, we would probably spend that extra 2 weeks prototyping, so that the final assembly gets done the night before competition, or early in the morning that very day.

In my humble opinion, the pressures (and relief!) a team faces isn't the same without a stop build day, which is why I want to keep it.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

While I'd agree that there are some people who really don't have anything new to add to this thread, there are students and mentors from whom I have never heard an opinion on this issue posting in this thread, and I personally see value in them sharing their opinions and experiences with us. If you don't, that's alright, but I'm pretty sure there are others who share my opinions on this.

On another note, you've rehashed this argument in a dozen other threads-- the truth is, clearly other people see a value in periodically discussing issues like this again. We can use our :deadhorse: emojis all we want, but if we just throw all the controversial issues in the freezer since, clearly, nothing ever changes when it comes to FRC, we're not going to get new and valuable ideas on them.



It does sound reasonable to me for FIRST and the community to work together to do research on this subject. Unbiased investigators might be a bit of a stretch, but certainly investigators with diverse perspectives and backgrounds would be reasonable. I do hope that some of those complaining about the issues with the survey have offered to help with further research on the subject. To any of those people who haven't already, getting in contact with Jamee (the current FRC team advocate) would be a good idea if you're interested in helping or suggesting this to FIRST. The email address is at the end of the survey, but if you can't remember, here it is: FRCTeamAdvocate@usfirst.org

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

Better call up FIRST and demand they remove 'competition' from FRC. The FIRST Robotics Science Fair Demonstration has a nice ring to it.

Once again - just because you don't like the topic doesn't mean others can't discuss it and propose ideas that could actually improve the program. That's what this forum is all about.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

All of these lower the level of play, and reduce the quality of the show.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

So in the f4 chat we hashed out ideas a bit presenting some arguments and I remembered a remnant from our 2015 mess of a stop build day.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...d.php?t=134801

So, sorry sam from 2015 stop build day no miracle this time and sorry geetwo Einstein would have been fun.

We ended up with a robot that never lifted a game piece. It had potential to work but it was too much work to get done at the regional. It was a week 5 regional and our only regional. If we had 5 extra weeks we would have had plenty of time to fix the design and if we had 8 hours per week for 4 weeks we would have been able once again to actually field a working robot. We could have potentially fixed the issues in the withholding allowance the issue was though that we didn't know what would fix it. Would more wire wraps fix all of our issues? New rails? Now after the regional I know we would have needed a new plate with 2 levels and 8 more rollers, New rails this time tubing, as well as a more wraps or just a normal winch. But, we had no way or figuring it out and we couldn't really afford building a second one.

Being stuck not knowing if you can fix your robots issues with no real way to test it, is frustrating, sad, and sure as he'll not inspiring. In fact after that season we lost 2 hard working members as it wasn't worth their time anymore. I have yet to hear an argument strong enough to warrant me supporting a bag that can result in hindering a team to that point.

Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey
 

First off: I'm inclined to agree. But... What does that have to do with enforcing a 6-week build period? Which, if I recall correctly, is the current topic of the thread, at least in a general sort of way.

Right. Not much. (And, just to troll a little bit, you been warned: If you want "quality of show", advocate for more Regionals. Without the production company, the show quality drops. [/troll] [/sarcasm])

Also note that I did point out that at least the second and third ideas were non-starters--either team outcry or sheer impracticality. Matter of fact, I think the inverse of the second needs to be the case, where teams are "required" to do multiple events--see also "Districts"--but some areas are still trying to figure out how to get there (and some of those may need some "input" from teams and/or HQ).



I'm inclined to agree that the level of play will probably go down. The question is, will it go down simply from "elite" to "really good", or will it drop even farther, and how much of a drop in play can we tolerate? Remember that most of the teams in this specific discussion are at least average, ranging up to elite, and I'd also suspect that almost all are working towards being up in that elite/powerhouse range. What about the teams that AREN'T at that level? What are their opinions? I think the survey will be rather interesting in that regard. If there's a clear divide, particularly with the high-level teams saying "take it away" and the lower-level teams saying "keep it", that'll be an interesting discussion leading into 2018, to put it mildly.

I seem to recall hearing--or hearing about, it's been a while--where someone (I want to say a rookie team) AT KICKOFF asked Woodie why so short a time as 6 weeks. And the answer was something to the effect of "Because we're trying to make it easier for you", followed by a more detailed explanation that I can't remember all of. Now remember, this is back when 2v2 (I'm pretty sure it was before 4v0) was the latest and greatest game twist, so times have changed.


Basically, you can't have it all. You cannot have an "enforced" 6 weeks without extra rules and giving up level of play. You cannot claim 6 week builds and have teams continue working beyond that, legally. You really cannot allow unbagged primary robots right up until competition and call it a 6-week build! (Unless you're Palmetto '16... :p)



What I think is going on, possibly, is that FIRST has realized that they're in the state where a majority of teams legally work beyond the 6 weeks, despite bags, "Stop Build Day", and encouragement to put tools down. So NOW (some time too late) they're trying to figure out how to extricate themselves from this, and how the teams view the "Tools down" signal, and whether they need to do anything about it. They may be (rather desperately) trying to get teams to say that having a Stop Build is better than not, in order to justify putting the lid back on Pandora's Box. Given the response here, I'm betting that they decide to phase out Stop Build, but it won't be all at once.

To be honest, without the 2010 (or was it '09?) snowstorms, I'm not sure we'd be this far along this soon. That's the first time Withholding was increased from 25 lb, and it never went that low again (65 lb was the number due to the snowstorms in MAR/NE/NY, as I recall). Had that not happened, we might still be discussing the value of bagging robots instead of shipping them, rather than discussing the value of bagging vs. not bagging.