pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Now this is cool! What kind of testing have you done on these to ensure robustness in FRC-type applications?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Thank you! I've worked with both custom shafted encoders pretty much identical to this one and the AS5047P chips fairly extensively at this point. I've found that the former is very robust as long as your prints have sufficient wall thickness (which they do) and that the threads are undersized. Although I haven't made this particular model yet, I think I've developed a sufficiently strong formula for design that should make this far stronger than your typical Us Digital encoder, from my experience. I would run an order before selling normally, but I wanted to get them to teams at CC in a couple weeks, and I don't have time for 2 runs in that time.

The shaft assembly feels stronger than that of the S4s and MA3s, although I haven't purposefully tried to physically break one yet. If anybody is interested, I could make a video showing me destroying one of those. :P

Because the AS5047 is a contactless magnetic encoder like the Talon SRX encoder, it's incredibly robust. You may remember this baby: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/43840
A few of them have been used in a mimicry robotic arm with great success. I'll see if I can post a pic here later, but essentially it's a sketchily made wooden arm that uses potentiometers as shafts, with the sensor magnet glued onto the tip. Despite being handled by kids who apparently have no idea how wiring works (I've been working with them on this for a year and they still don't know how to keep 5V and GND where they're supposed to be) and dropped and mangled numerous times, the encoders have lived on.
With this newest encoder, I'm hoping that this batch will face much heavier testing from teams.

The absolute positioning appears to flucuate around +/-5 counts (0.03%), although that may be just from the vibration of the hands.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I'm a bit confused, are you custom making these or did you just find your own connection to a supplier? If you are just making them I'm not sure how these would be legal to use in FRC.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Looks really interesting. I might want to get a few to play around with. Would you be willing to ship these to Canada? I'm sure there are a number of teams up hear that could find a use for these.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I've already PMed about this. As long as he can meet all the requirements for a VENDOR according to the FRC rules (may change, but haven't in a while) then he is able to sell them and they would be FRC legal. Weather or not the VENDOR definition should be updated is another discussion.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I am making my own, although I wouldn't be opposed to getting an FRC vendor to make them. I also received a PM about this, so I'll go into detail about how I'm fine for this.
Relevant image:

A: should be covered under Ebay. I know many teams buy from Ebay and AliExpress each year, and a mentor for 115 sold breakouts through Ebay a couple years back as well.
B: I'm independent of 115 now, as I graduated last year.
C: Given the low quantity of orders I get, I'll have a stockpile of these proportional to the number of teams that want them before January. "Higher-than-normal" order rates are basically more than 10 for me.
D: I can maintain stock (10+) very easily. I'll also have access to a PCB CNC soon, so even if I run behind it should be easy to get parts to teams in under a week. Right now, it takes around 10 days to get the PCBs because I'm ordering from OSHPark.
E. I'm posting it here, aren't I? :P

Sure. I'll need to see if the magnet can be shipped across international lines, and if they can I'd be more than happy to get you a few.

I forgot to mention that I'll have the design files up eventually too.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I think it is a massive stretch to argue that the federal tax ID number for Ebay.com somehow qualifies you as a vendor. Literally anyone can setup an Ebay account.

You're essentially redefining these rules to do what you want, when you at this point clearly don't meet the intent of them. Saying 10 parts in stock is a "normal" amount?

This looks like great work and all that, but I don't think you can consider yourself an FRC legal vendor because you have an Ebay account and made a dozen of something. This seems like the exact situation the rule was written for.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I would also wonder about any certifications or testing that would need to be done due to it being an electrical device. I know when we were working on custom slip rings, we thought one part of being able to sell them as a vendor, we were worried we had to have them tested and rated, UL, etc.

If FIRST is willing to count an account on ebay then count be as surprised. I never got the impression that counted.

I will say I do not understand why FIRST feels it necessary to include section B. Not sure how that helps either party, the supplier or consumer both.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

If it does, the policy is sort of meaningless, methinks.

Honestly, if you're only going to have a stock of 10 or so, I have a hard time buying that as meeting the requirements of the policy, at least in any way that's consistent with the policy's intent. If an off-the-shelf resource is available to one team, it ought to be available to every team - a stock that limited really isn't, in practice, available to every team.

Else, what's preventing any team that wants to pre-machine parts from spinning off a handful of spares, opening an ebay account, and calling it a COTS product?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

The intent of the rule is to ensure that any team that wants to buy something can do so, and from a legitimate vendor. Ebay works through Paypal, offers a return service, and has various guarantees and restrictions on what people can sell. Many businesses, especially eastern Asian ones, sell almost exclusively on Ebay, Ali Express, and Alibaba. As a legitimate question (because I'm in the dark about this), what wouldn't qualify Ebay?
I know that teams buy and sell on Ebay and Aliexpress often, so if it is illegal as you say a lot of teams have unintentionally broken rules in the past. In particular, MVRT actually sold around 150 breakout boards for the Talon SRX back in 2015 through a mentor. 115 also used those for 2015 and 2016, and will probably continue using them for 2017 and onwards. Oddly enough, nobody brought up anything about Ebay not being a legitimate seller window back then, maybe because it was a team selling them rather than just an alumni.

I wish that keeping 10 in stock was very low, although I'm flattered that you think that I sell more than just a few of anything. :D In all seriousness, I think you're way overestimating how many people are interested in custom electronics. Even my cheapo PWM generator only sold about six (6) units, and that was my most useful device.
The bottom line is that very, very few teams have a marked interest in custom encoders, even (especially?) ones as cheap as this. Although it's true that I'm selling next to nothing, nothing is stopping you from buying one right now and letting me expand my stock for the season. My goal is to sell enough to start giving these away for free at competitions, and for every ~4 of these I can sell that's 1 more freebie that I can give away. If you don't think that I sell enough right now, please buy one so I can expand my stock to something that you think is normal. Don't just complain about the problem, do something about it. ;)

I loved your slip ring project, it was very well executed.
As far as testing and electrical stuff goes, this is nowhere near the power of a custom slip ring. I know that teams use custom breakouts all the time; in terms of power or usage, this isn't much different. It just has a fancy plastic case and a couple bearings. It poses as much risk as a bad crimp to your robot.
I'm not too clear on B either. Perhaps it's to prevent fake "teams" registered by vendors from selling en masse at competitions?


As a side note, I do want to open up a storefront for these kinds of things at some point. I'm thinking of selling MVRE-109s, hex bore encoders, and cheap PWM generators among a few other things. Does anybody know of a good platform that I could use to set up a website and process payments through Paypal with?

See above. If I sell 10 of these, I'm breaking a record for "profit made" and I might even be able to recoup my development investment. :| Right now, they are definitely available to every team that wants them, and that number is very low. I believe I have 6 or 8 people right now that have expressed an interest in purchasing a couple.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I'm not trying to impugn your motives here - I'm sure your intentions are good. But, you haven't addressed my point - if your setup satisfied the rule, what's stopping any team that wants to use parts they've developed outside of build season from making a few spares and starting an ebay account and calling it a COTS product?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I think we just found out why the "B" clause is there. :P The operations of the team and vendor should be separate.

Assuming you get around that, nothing, as long as they make it available to all teams and can get a turnaround of less than a week. For example if a team wanted to sell pneumatic wheels this year like WCPs, I'm sure a solid CNC could pull off making quite a few of those, especially early in the build season. I see your point though; the rule is clearly meant to prevent a team from just making a few and selling them. My argument is that I am meeting and exceeding the low demand for these products.

I'm curious as to what parts teams would sell this way. I've discussed selling custom wheels with someone before, but past that I can't imagine what a team would sell that would actually given them a considerable edge without having such a high demand that nobody would buy them.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I suppose it does come down to that clause - so long as you're making these without any resources from your former team, that's less-worrisome, though I still feel it might be a bit too close to something that could be used as an easy end-run around the fabricated parts restrictions.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I don't think what's going on here is by any means a stretch. EBay has a tax id, and asid61 is no longer affiliated with his team. He's fine.

That being said, let's consider a scenario that I don't think anyone would be opposed to. When 775pros were out of stock, I saw lots of teams selling them to each other. Would you consider this in violation of section A or B? I wouldn't.

All asid61 is doing is taking a custom (so technically fabricated) part, and selling it with a bunch of COTS parts attached. Worst case, it's a fabricated item, rather than a COTS item, per
(emphasis mine)

Just my 2¢.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

The fact that ebay has or does not have a Federal Tax ID number is irrelevant to this discussion. Ebay is nothing more than a market place or transaction facilitator if you will. The do not own nor sell the products that are sold through them. The same thing goes for the Amazon market place, they facilitate transactions for sellers of products that they don't own. That is why each listing will state "sold and shipped by Amazon" for inventory they own and "sold and shipped by xxx" for products that they do not own.

That by no means indicates that you can not buy products from ebay or Amazon just that their respective Tax ID numbers are not transitive and thus do not mean that the seller qualifies as a Vendor under FRC rules.

On the other hand legitimate businesses that are organized as sole proprietorships are nor required to have a Federal Tax ID number that business will report its income under the sole proprietor's SSN. However having a SSN does not mean that a person would meet the definition of a Vendor under past FRC rules, they would need what ever licenses businesses are required in their locality to actually be a business.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

-snip- I can't read. Please disregard

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Thank you for the information, that all makes sense.
I tried to fill out the form for running a small business out of my garage for Cupertino. It doesn't look like there are any particular fees to pay (yet), so I might as well just register for a license and get some form of business ID.
In any case, anybody who would have bought one has already been scared off by the possibility of not being able to use it during competition, so it's not even worth doing at this point. Kind of a shame, but getting the license is a good idea in the long run anyway.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Why not go the other route and just ask FIRST HQ if you are a vendor or what you would need to do to become one.

I'm sure HQ wants people making products for FRC teams. You may not be able to meet their terms now (or maybe you are) but you might be able to in the near future.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I emailed HQ a few hours ago asking what I can do. It shouldn't be too hard, hopefully.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

While we wait on a legal ruling... can we get some real pictures?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Take some of your cold hard earned cash, buy a bunch and work with rev robotics Andymark or Vex pro to distribute. Is this not the capitalist way?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

This sounds like a great product. More capable than a Grayhill and at 1/3 the cost. Starting a business is a very exciting time!

As others have said, you might need an approval from an electronic equipment certifying agency like UL. If you decide to sell thru Digi-Key, they may have additional requirements.

Let me know if you need help creating a website.

If you expect to ramp up production, you can form an limited liability Company (LLC) and run it as a sole proprietor for tax and liability reasons. I would expect you can do this for free. However, Calif may require payment for a state business license.

In Washington, you can get free business help thru the library from retired accountants. Maybe there is something like this in your state.

When filling out your taxes, your business expenses can be claimed as a "pass thru activity". Just fill out a few extra pages on a 1040 form. Use Turbo Tax to help.

Doing it this way also allows you to deduct all expenses related to creating this product including computers (may have to deprecate), cost of the room used to build and mail the product, plus the cost of furniture and machining equipment.

Dave
Build Mentor and Past UX Design Consultant

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

There are now 4 less in stock. This is pretty cool at $18 each. Going to play around with them on our robots from last season.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I would like to see these in person at Chezy Champs. Please be sure to stop by the 696 pit area. Ask for Daniel or Alexander.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

The only potential issue I see is being able to source quantity (which can be solved).

As long as Asid is selling these as a sole propietership and not a wholly owned subsidiary of 115 i don't see the issue with the rest of the rules.

It's surprisingly easy to be a business in the US as a sole prop in terms of paperwork.

That being said, sure distribution would likely be better with Andymark etc, but he doesn't have to go that route.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

For those of us who know very little about using encoders, how would you use this and how does this compare to other encoders on the market?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I am always looking for sensors that we can easily integrate and are cost effective. I will let FIRST settle the whole vendor designation.

I think this effort is in the sense of why Dean Kamen started FIRST--to expand innovation. We have seen incredible amount of innovation from the likes of AndyMark, VEX, WCP, CTR, etc. that have enabled teams to continuously advance the quality and sophistication of our robots. To that end, several of these firms started in garages and as ideas and look where they are at today.

I bought two. We will see how they work.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I don't see why he would need to go through the massive expense of getting it UL listed. I don't see any mention of UL listing for the CiM or any of the other motors we commonly use in FRC.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Because OMG electrons!

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

As long as there are no positrons, it shouldn't be too bad.

<sorry, that was off topic>

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Starting a limited liability company as a sole proprietor would allow the owner to declare liability limits for non-illegal or intentional negligence. Might be a good idea if you are selling something that involves kids engineering. I have done this several times in NJ...

In 24 hours you can: start a website, get a VoIP forwarded toll free number, setup a store online, register a business name at the county seat, get a UPS store mailbox you can address as a suite. In 1-2 weeks you can get a federal tax ID if you intend to hire employees beside yourself or if it actually turns out FIRST requires it. Be aware the ID makes it clear you will collect sales and use tax (be careful about use tax). You can usually get an ST3 for tax exempt resale in less than 2 weeks after this. Legally your SSN is adequate if you do not have employees (you are not scapegoating taxes, the income and risk is yours directly). You should also get business liability insurance and a business checking account (try a credit union to reduce the minimum start deposit or monthly fees) once you get your certificates from the state. Then you are legally a business. There is no law, just some zoning issues, which stop you from running a distribution and even light production business from a residential home. Just do not make toxic waste or anything illegal.

You are likely going to spend $750-$1,000 to start such a business. Assuming you don't pre-pay for the services being consumed initially (usually not the best idea). Then you will be looking at $250-$400 a month of operating costs (insurance $150, phone $20, website $10, mailbox $70). You may need an accountant to help you file the sales/use tax and the taxes and they will likely cost more money. On the plus side: consider that operating a business out of your home has certain tax advantages. You can write a portion of your home off for business use but it must be used mostly for that purpose. You can potentially write off vehicle use. You can write off a proportional amount of your electricity, cooling and heating costs for the business portion of the home. Expect that yearly costs of operation will be several thousand dollars.

Now the question is: will the product still be cheap if you do all of this?
The answer might be no, and in the case of this encoder, I would suggest finding additional markets outside of FIRST because even a single issue might put you underwater.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

While a good idea for something larger, for the point Asid is it none of this is necessary other than understanding how a sole prop works and how to handle taxes properly.

No sense in incurring a bunch of expensive before necessary, he can always add on later.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Yes and no. You can, for example, operate without stated limited liability or insurance but it depends on how much you like to sweat.

Usually I personally wouldn't hesitate to start a business via eBay and limited expenses but then again - I wouldn't be caught in the trap of selling stuff directly with the intent of high school or younger students using it (sounds really bad if something goes wrong). I also wouldn't have a partnership or control in my industry like a charity in that case.

I previously helped bid on a control system for FIRST. When you dig into it: FIRST really doesn't leave a lot of middle ground on robot parts (parts or tools not permanent to the robot system are different). If what you are making is going into a KOP or is common on the official fields there are expectations that push scale and costs. It is fairly safe to say if you don't just want to sell a small amount of something you'll have to increase your operating and stocking costs.

In reality you can safely skip a post office box. A toll free number. Even a website (but you can probably get that free if you ask someone like me as I own 3 reseller hosting accounts, just pay for the domain name). That said now someone will probably have your cell phone number and home address (perhaps you like calls at 2AM from any place on Earth for support). Really I don't think the costs are that bad - but there is a barrier between open sourced community and ready to sell on Amazon/AndyMark when it comes to FIRST.

If the costs are too much - may I suggest finding like minded people to help out. Sometimes it is easier to face a challenge like this when you have help.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

The fact that doing so would require selling them to any other team who wanted one. And that doing so would reveal and effectively make said design public domain (unless it was something like 217/148 nonadrive, which is/was patent pending). It's the same way that the current rules regarding the reuse of old designs works; you can reuse all you want as long as you make it public domain so any team can use it freely.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Alright, I've decided to take down the listing for now while I get all my vendor stuff in order. I wasn't thinking clearly yesterday, and I want to make totally sure that I can sell these FRC-legally before I do anything. It wouldn't be fair to sell these under false hopes, even though I'm reasonably sure that they are legal.
Those of you who have already ordered will still have their orders filled by Chezy Champs, I just won't be selling anymore for a while.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Regarding licensing it can vary significantly by the state and the specific local municipality, especially with regards to a home based business. Zoning laws are laws and do vary by municipality. Many will not allow anything that resembles manufacturing to take place in a residential zone. Violations can bring fines and failure to comply with an order to correct can result in potential jail time in some municipalities.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is any Home Owner's Association rules on home based businesses. They can be very strict in some cases.

The time to get a license issued can vary as well. I know in the city where I used to run a home based business it took about 2 weeks from the time I turned in my application and money until it was approved and issued. In that case it had to be approved by a number of different departments. For example I had to talk to the fire chief and answer a number of questions before he decided to approve it and send it off to the next person on the list.


But yes in many cases getting a business legally operating is not that hard, expensive or take that long to make happen.

Other things to think about are taxes that again can vary. In my state there are B&O taxes based on the amount of sales. The city I operated in had their own version of wage taxes where there was a per hour, per employee tax rate that applied to anyone working in the city and to people working for businesses based in the city even if they are doing work outside of the city.

TLDR: Things vary depending on locality and anyone that wants to start a business needs to carefully research the specifics that apply to their location and type of business.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I've dealt with enforcement attempts before:

If you can bake there, fix your cars there, clean your cars and laundry there: sure they can file charges but best of luck arguing that no manufacturing at all is allowed. Obviously there are practical limits - but seriously it is far more likely a local authority can nail you for running a service business (hair salon, restaurant, bar, landscape contracting) than stop you from running a small milling machine and even PCB milling systems (what's next: hot glue guns, drills, staplers, 3D printers, optical disc writers?).

True if you live in a condo association or controlled community:

1. I pity your situation: these situations are ripe with crazy enforcement possibilities that you can inadvertently consent to and would not otherwise be enforceable by local zoning officers.

2. Usually you can move the manufacturing part out of the area and they can't stop you. In the past I have been known to accumulate work areas in towns nearby. Such that if someone raises a fuss - they are completely unable to halt my operations because I simply move them overnight to a new jurisdiction in which they have not got authority to act. Kind of bizarre when you are doing something perfectly legal but can't do it somewhere because of a broken legal system and people's agendas.

Good points. There are often exceptions. Ultimately though, even after you face the challenges in creating a business that would naturally exist. FIRST rules may still complicate things further. It is always wise to ask, and even, sometimes wise to progressively challenge the common knowledge because this is complex enough that sometimes what people think they know is FIRST regulation is not what the people that control FIRST actually think about the matter. Obviously the ability to challenge the status quo should be done with respect. It is not a license to be rude.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Wow, there's a lot of good info on this thread!:D
Afaik asid61 is going to college. How would being a college student affect these rules and regulations?

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Even minors can form a business entity if they can provide sufficient ID in many jurisdictions. Obviously most minors do not have a drivers license.

College dorms might pose a challenge because of the rules. Some colleges will not allow business activity from the dorms.

In general I have never seen a college that can prevent you from operating a legal business, but maybe not on their campus with their tools. Then again: I would approach the dean for support and then you may find you have a free shop in your school, free website and access to software licenses (course they may want a cut of your pie as well).

I think many in the FIRST community could rally the necessary resources to move barriers if asked. I would certainly provide free web hosting and they could bring their domain to it. I might even provide some resources like money and tools. Key is to ask.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I think there will be many potential customers for this encoder (e.g, in the maker community) who are not concerned about FRC rules -- only whether the encoder works as expected and is reliable.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

I was selling these at a very low profit (ended up being $0 after I forgot to factor in the price of $1 bearings :o) so if I wanted to sell to a larger community I would be charging at least $10 or $15 more.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Your markup is fair considering your competition price for a similar package. Also considering you seemingly did not factor in business costs.

If you make them available, I will grab 2 at the higher price.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

This is exactly my approach at this time.
Once they become FRC legal, I will seriously consider them for our robots. Hopefully by that time I will have had enough experience with them to make an educated decision.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Looking at the current rules:

A) is easy. For a sole proprietorship or an S-corporation your SSN is a TIN (First term) as for as the IRS is concerned. (Actually the IRS calls it EIN) Lots of good reasons to run a small company that way. Lots of reasons to get a separate EIN including keeping your SSN secure. Sole proprietorships are easy to create requiring almost no paper work. In Georgia, they require a county business license in the counties they do business in. >$200 annual fee for one with little income. A LLC requires annual registration at the state level. In GA $100 for initial and then $50 annual.

B) is easy as well. Your business just needs to be separate from a team and not make "COTs" parts primarily for a team.

C) Is a bit more problematic. Many large corporations which are my vendors would not meet the literal definition. The GDC tends to like their rules to be interpreted literally. :]. But I read it as that you need to have the resources so you can handle reasonable demand. The IRS tends to divide business and hobbyist on rather or not you make a profit. Although if you make a profit on your hobby they want their cut and their are many large companies that operate at a loss.

An encoder is considered to be a custom circuit. It is not required to meet UL or other certifications. It not even required to actually work.

Anyway I think it is really neat that you were inspired to do this. Don't let the paper pushers keep you down.

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

Indeed. :)

Re: pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder
 

So will I.

Amen. This is why we do the math.