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Bkeeneykid 27-09-2016 17:16
[FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Posted on the FRC Blog, 9/27/16: http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...ation-progress

Quote:

Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
Written by FIRST Staff


Registration Progress

Written by Frank Merrick.

We continue to work towards resolution of our event registration issue. We have brought in an expert on the MySQL database management system who has identified some behavioral anomalies that were occurring prior to the crash. Whether or not analyzing these anomalies will lead to our being able to identify the ‘smoking gun’ is not yet clear. However, we continue to work very hard in identifying the root cause while simultaneously creating a back-up plan.

Our goal is still to be able to announce details on the whens and hows of registration by the evening of this Friday, September 30th. As we noted before, registration will likely be the week of October 3rd, and most likely the latter part of the week, so October 5th, 6th, or 7th, or in that range.

I apologize again for this situation. Getting this fixed is a top priority within FIRST at this time and we are engaging all resources necessary.



Kit of Parts -- 2017 Drive Base Kit Option

Written by the Kit of Parts team.

Your 2017 Kickoff Kit will again include a drive base kit! Maybe; it’s up to you.

Veteran teams are invited to choose a $450 Voucher from AndyMark (available 12/7) instead of receiving a drive base kit with their Kickoff Kit (all other teams will automatically receive the drive base kit). If you prefer to receive the drive base kit, you don’t have to do a thing (except make sure your registration fee is paid by the payment deadline in November).

To accommodate drive base kit production lead times, this option is only available until noon (Eastern) on Thursday, 10/6.

We’ll be collecting teams’ decisions differently this year. Instead of making the selection in the team registration system,* we’ll be using a webform. We will only accept selections made using this form.

Steps are as follows:
  1. Click this webform link.
  2. Fill in the form.
    The Team ID can be found after at the end of the url that a “Lead Coach/Mentor 1” or “Lead Coach/Mentor 2” sees after clicking on a dashboard button, like “Manage Team Contact,” when logged in the team’s registration account. In the example below, the Team ID is 614361.

    2017 FIRST Robotics Competition Team Registration System How To Find Your Unique Team ID
  3. Click Submit.
  4. Do a happy dance.
If, after you fill out the form (but before the deadline), your team changes their mind about their selection, you can repeat steps 2 through 4. We’ll disregard any of your team’s previously submitted forms. For this reason, we recommend you delegate this job to one person so there aren’t multiple selections assigned to your team.

If a team does nothing by the deadline, they will be assigned the ‘default’ option of receiving the drive base kit as part of their Kickoff Kit.

We acknowledge that this system does not have all of the features we’d like.
  • Can anyone fill out a form with nonsense data? Yup.
  • Can rookie team fill out the form? Yup.
  • Are we doing the authentication on the back end? Yup.
  • Can a user lie about their name and address? Yup.
We know this is not ideal, and we beg that anyone tempted to troll this tool have mercy and not.

To help you make your decision, we can give you some general information about the 2017 drive base kit.

- It’s similar to the AM14U3 from 2016, but will not include the bumper mounting kit.

- Features are such that they enable a team to execute basic elements of game play.

- Design is such that the drive base can be assembled and driving by a small team with limited resource within two days.

We recognize that we are asking you to make a decision about a partially defined product, which can lead to frustration. Our goal is to give you as much information as possible without revealing details about the game. For example, a drive base with significant ground clearance may imply some type of obstacle on the field that robots would likely have to traverse. If we revealed details such as ground clearance, we would be giving away too much of the game.

*If you’re wondering if this change is related to The Great Registration System Crash of 2016, it is. Once the system failed, we didn’t want the testing/tweaking of this feature to distract from our IT team’s efforts to bring the system back on line and retest.

Harrison.Smith 27-09-2016 17:20
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
"It’s similar to the AM14U3 from 2016, but will not include the bumper mounting kit."

I sure hope this doesn't mean that bumpers may be optional next year.

Thad House 27-09-2016 17:20
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Anyone heard from Hallry recently?

Hallry 27-09-2016 17:33
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1609200)
Anyone heard from Hallry recently?
I heard that he's gone into hiding after missing too many FRC Blogs...:rolleyes:

bobbysq 27-09-2016 18:32
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
- Features are such that they enable a team to execute basic elements of game play.
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?

Edit: Just admitting I'm wrong so this thread doesn't get flooded with people telling me that I'm wrong and a mod has to split this into "People telling bobbysq he's wrong"

marshall 27-09-2016 18:38
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Hey Frank, the form should be updated to specify that you are looking for the TeamID and not the UID option in the URL (it kinda says it but it should be more explicit)... I would suggest having the user just copy/paste the complete URL and then run some regex to clean it up manually after the fact since you're likely going to need to clean the dataset anyway. Just my .009 cents.

Lil' Lavery 27-09-2016 19:04
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1609206)
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?
Wouldn't read that much into it yet. A drivebase with no manipulator could accomplish elements of gameplay in 2016 (crossing some defenses).

Cothron Theiss 27-09-2016 19:07
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison.Smith (Post 1609199)
"It’s similar to the AM14U3 from 2016, but will not include the bumper mounting kit."

I sure hope this doesn't mean that bumpers may be optional next year.
Good guy Frank already confirmed we would have bumpers for 2017. Probably just a change in the COTS mounting kit. Hopefully FIRST changes how the bumper rules are explained as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1609206)
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?
Highly doubt it. Most games have many objectives that could be completed with just a chassis. Stronghold was a perfect example of that.

RoboChair 27-09-2016 19:15
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1609206)
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?
Driving around the field is a basic element of play, except for some teams in 2015. An amazing manipulator system is worthless without being able to drive reliably.

Cothron Theiss 27-09-2016 19:24
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Just out of curiosity, are there any teams that intend to make a custom drivetrain for the 2017 season but will NOT opt out of the KOP drivetrain? The $450 voucher is nice, but is having a KOP chassis on hand for prototyping or if something goes wrong on your intended drivetrain useful enough that you get the KOP chassis with no intention of using it in competition?

ctt956 27-09-2016 19:25
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1609210)
Wouldn't read that much into it yet. A drivebase with no manipulator could accomplish elements of gameplay in 2016 (crossing some defenses).
True. It could also challenge and maybe score low goals(difficult, but possible) in addition to playing defense. It is often possible to score by just pushing game pieces around the field, or at least helping your alliance score by pushing game pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609211)
Good guy Frank already confirmed we would have bumpers for 2017. Probably just a change in the COTS mounting kit. Hopefully FIRST changes how the bumper rules are explained as well.
Your link seems broken...

Bkeeneykid 27-09-2016 19:25
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609214)
Just out of curiosity, are there any teams that intend to make a custom drivetrain for the 2017 season but will NOT opt out of the KOP drivetrain? The $450 voucher is nice, but is having a KOP chassis on hand for prototyping or if something goes wrong on your intended drivetrain useful enough that you get the KOP chassis with no intention of using it in competition?
We did this in 2015, but only after realizing it would be a massive pain to attach Mechanum wheels onto the AM14U2. We kept it around and came in very useful for 2016.

Bkeeneykid 27-09-2016 19:26
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctt956 (Post 1609215)
True. It could also challenge and maybe score low goals(difficult, but possible) in addition to playing defense. It is often possible to score by just pushing game pieces around the field, or at least helping your alliance score by pushing game pieces.



Your link seems broken...
Fixed link: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...ht=Blog+bumper

nerdrock101 27-09-2016 19:28
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1609206)
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?
I didn't think of a manipulator, but maybe a more passive object. Like a hitch for a scoring bucket, perhaps? :D

I miss Lunacy.

AllenGregoryIV 27-09-2016 20:19
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609214)
Just out of curiosity, are there any teams that intend to make a custom drivetrain for the 2017 season but will NOT opt out of the KOP drivetrain? The $450 voucher is nice, but is having a KOP chassis on hand for prototyping or if something goes wrong on your intended drivetrain useful enough that you get the KOP chassis with no intention of using it in competition?
We did the first year they switched to the new AndyMark AM14U systems. We wanted to make sure we could help rookie and young teams build it properly. So we got the one in the kit and had a portion of our team build it and see if they had any issues and we learned from it. Then when we had other teams come to our shop to build their drive trains, we could help them.

DanielPlotas 27-09-2016 20:23
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdrock101 (Post 1609218)
I didn't think of a manipulator, but maybe a more passive object. Like a hitch for a scoring bucket, perhaps? :D

I miss Lunacy.
I'd assume that if it was on the KOP chassis it would be available from Andymark as soon as the game is released.

Mr V 27-09-2016 22:02
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Count me as a Robot Inspector as disapointed in the fact that bumper mounting brackets will not be included in this year's KOP. While not perfect it did help those low resource teams have a much greater chance of creating a decent bumper mounting system.

Billfred 27-09-2016 22:07
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielPlotas (Post 1609220)
I'd assume that if it was on the KOP chassis it would be available from Andymark as soon as the game is released.
Yes, we plan to have the 2017 kit drive system available on the website immediately after Kickoff. And maybe some other good stuff too. ;)

Christopher149 27-09-2016 22:58
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1609206)
This is really interesting. Does this mean it'll have some form of manipulator/launcher attached already?
They've had that language in previous announcements about the kitbot opt-out.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...43&postcount=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017
Features are such that they enable a team to execute basic elements of game play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2016
Features are designed such that they enable a team to execute basic elements of game play.

tjwolter 28-09-2016 09:04
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Ugh. We found the KoP bumper mounting system to be so "anti-robust" as to be near useless. One project I may suggest to this years's team is a "Bumper Hospital" to help struggling teams on the Thursday of tournament. Some decent iron on numbers, a double handful of seriously sturdy bumper mounts. I saw too many teams expending effort for poor results.

Andrew Schreiber 28-09-2016 09:04
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609214)
Just out of curiosity, are there any teams that intend to make a custom drivetrain for the 2017 season but will NOT opt out of the KOP drivetrain? The $450 voucher is nice, but is having a KOP chassis on hand for prototyping or if something goes wrong on your intended drivetrain useful enough that you get the KOP chassis with no intention of using it in competition?
125 has typically gotten the KOP chassis and built it with the teams that come to kitbot build day. It is then often used as a testbed for software and electronics.

marshall 28-09-2016 09:19
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1609231)
Yes, we plan to have the 2017 kit drive system available on the website immediately after Kickoff. And maybe some other good stuff too. ;)
I hope it's game pieces!

Chris is me 28-09-2016 09:37
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher149 (Post 1609238)
They've had that language in previous announcements about the kitbot opt-out.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...43&postcount=1
The past language was new last year, and seemed to correlate with how the drive base alone could score points. The implication is that you can get some sort of bonus with just the drive base this year.

Now, that could be as simple as the 2014 "drive forward at all in auton" bonus, in a game without other drive-to-score objectives, but it does imply that a drive base can play some aspect of the game.

Ryan Dognaux 28-09-2016 14:59
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
We're getting the KOP drive again this year. We ended up using it last year and I wish we would have had it from day 1. AndyMark does a great job on this drive base and the majority of teams should heavily consider using it.

Cothron Theiss 28-09-2016 15:28
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1609216)
We did this in 2015, but only after realizing it would be a massive pain to attach Mechanum wheels onto the AM14U2. We kept it around and came in very useful for 2016.
We did attach 6" Mecanums to the AM14U2 for the 2015 season, and yes, it was a pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1609219)
We wanted to make sure we could help rookie and young teams build it properly.
That makes sense. Often, some of the teams from the greater Knoxville area will all build the KOP chassis with any rookie teams we have, but my team hasn't done that the past few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1609261)
125 has typically gotten the KOP chassis and built it with the teams that come to kitbot build day. It is then often used as a testbed for software and electronics.
I really wish we had put together the KOP chassis and immediately started driving on defenses in the first few days after kick-off. We severely over-estimated the defenses, and didn't adjust our design in time to increase our scoring capabilities. Driving a little bit early on might have shown us that getting over the B and D defenses was not the monumental task we thought it was at first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1609305)
We're getting the KOP drive again this year. We ended up using it last year and I wish we would have had it from day 1. AndyMark does a great job on this drive base and the majority of teams should heavily consider using it.
My team has used the KOP chassis or a modified version of it all four years of our existence. It's worked well for us, but my team is hoping to make the switch to a WCD using the VersaFrame products. Mounting things to our frame has always been a poorly thought-out process for us, and I hope the VersaFrame system will at least force the designers to figure out mounting BEFORE Weeks 5 & 6. Also, I think the process of making a chassis from scratch (sort of) will let the students and designers actually think through how the drivetrain works, and let them have a little control over the most important part of the robot.

Andrew Schreiber 28-09-2016 15:36
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609309)
I really wish we had put together the KOP chassis and immediately started driving on defenses in the first few days after kick-off. We severely over-estimated the defenses, and didn't adjust our design in time to increase our scoring capabilities. Driving a little bit early on might have shown us that getting over the B and D defenses was not the monumental task we thought it was at first.
Even if you don't have the code stuff up and running yet, 125 did a lot of testing with a plywood base, an old PDB, and some vic 884s controlled with a cheap 4 channel hobby receiver and a transmitter I had sitting around. Instead of going through a lot of revisions with "precision" methods to find what was catching on defenses simply drive over, if it gets stuck cut it off with a hack saw.

marshall 28-09-2016 15:43
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1609312)
if it gets stuck cut it off with a hack saw.
Or add more CIMs and break some defense pins. ;)

ctt956 28-09-2016 16:16
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall (Post 1609264)
I hope it's game pieces!
Game pieces that aren't overpriced, hopefully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1609265)
The past language was new last year, and seemed to correlate with how the drive base alone could score points. The implication is that you can get some sort of bonus with just the drive base this year.

Now, that could be as simple as the 2014 "drive forward at all in auton" bonus, in a game without other drive-to-score objectives, but it does imply that a drive base can play some aspect of the game.
I'm not sure if 2014 had the drive forward auto bonus, but I think 2015 did. In Arial Assist, it was probably possible to score with just a drive base, as it could push balls into the low goals and/or catch them. With Recycle Rush, a drive-only robot could score a maximum of 2 points at a time by pushing one tote onto the step, though other robots could add to the stack. Defense is an option for a "just drive" robot if possible(no defense in 2015).

Cothron Theiss 28-09-2016 16:22
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctt956 (Post 1609325)
Game pieces that aren't overpriced, hopefully!



I'm not sure if 2014 had the drive forward auto bonus...
It did. 5 points, I believe.

Ryan Dognaux 28-09-2016 17:16
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1609309)
My team has used the KOP chassis or a modified version of it all four years of our existence. It's worked well for us, but my team is hoping to make the switch to a WCD using the VersaFrame products. Mounting things to our frame has always been a poorly thought-out process for us, and I hope the VersaFrame system will at least force the designers to figure out mounting BEFORE Weeks 5 & 6. Also, I think the process of making a chassis from scratch (sort of) will let the students and designers actually think through how the drivetrain works, and let them have a little control over the most important part of the robot.
I will say that the versaframe system is very good as well. We used the versaframe style of building everywhere on top of the kit of parts drive last year and it worked out great. Regardless of which one you choose, you still need to think about system integration and that's where doing a bit of CAD upfront really helps.

Even creating a WCD using the versa system from scratch will take a little longer than just assembling the kit of parts drive base. We saved probably 3-4 days last year of fabrication and assembly compared to assembling a WCD. Make sure your time and resources wouldn't be better spent on what goes on top of the drive train.

Cothron Theiss 28-09-2016 17:49
Re: [FRC Blog] Veteran Team Drive Base Option and Registration Progress
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1609335)
I will say that the versaframe system is very good as well. We used the versaframe style of building everywhere on top of the kit of parts drive last year and it worked out great. Regardless of which one you choose, you still need to think about system integration and that's where doing a bit of CAD upfront really helps.

Even creating a WCD using the versa system from scratch will take a little longer than just assembling the kit of parts drive base. We saved probably 3-4 days last year of fabrication and assembly compared to assembling a WCD. Make sure your time and resources wouldn't be better spent on what goes on top of the drive train.
I'm hoping my team will be able to improve on system integration in the future. We've relied pretty heavily on 80/20 the last 4 years, and while it is a powerful tool for prototyping and designing, it's disadvantages start showing during competition. However, my team will have to work very diligently on design and thinking through the whole process, partly because we don't have any team members experienced in CAD. (That last bit is my fault. I didn't do a good job of finding my replacement.)

The more I think over it, I more I think I'll recommend to my team to get the KOP chassis just as a testing platform and a fallback. Hopefully they can look at how the KOP chassis performs, and make the changes they want to make with a custom chassis in order to progress as a team.


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