Volunter Verification
 

So I signed up as CSA again this year and ran into the new volunteer background verification system.

Does it bother anyone else that it seems FIRST is asking for your credit report?
Perhaps I misunderstand this part but this seems the intent.

From the consent form:
"Description of Your Rights under the New Jersey Fair Credit Reporting Act

The New Jersey Fair Credit Reporting Act is modeled after the federal Fair Credit Reporting Act and provides you with many of the same rights. You have received A Summary of Your Rights Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. "

What does it matter that my credit score is higher than average to FIRST?
I pump usually $10k or more a year through things related to FIRST (I have already exceed that amount for 2016).
FIRST and things related to FIRST rarely provide me any tax write-off.
The largest tax write off I ever got was $700 and that is tiny compared to me giving and my taxes in my bracket.

I am employed and operator of several business - again of what relevance is that to FIRST unless one of those business are doing business with FIRST? In the past this would have been relevant when I helped present a different control system for FIRST. I think my one company name, which I own, appeared on one robot in just one year. The only other relevant business names appear on the donor page for FRC11 (and none of those I own).

This seems unnecessary information in relation to a charity to which I have been a participant on and off for more than 20 years.

Keep in mind - I am frequently background checked under far more stringent circumstances because of the importance of my work to financial services and important infrastructure. I just wonder why FIRST wants this financial information. I have no criminal record, collections matters or other negative issues that exist or are relevant. All my business ventures are known to and have been fully vetted by financial and government entities. I have nothing to hide, but I am not sure I am comfortable with this exploration into my personal finances. I don't see KYC/AML (Know Your Client/Anti-Money Laundering) applies here. Is FIRST willing to show me all their books (because that's just about how I perceive this)?

Would it matter if, like so many Americans, I had collections matters from medical services or worse a bankruptcy?
What if I had a low credit score from predatory lending practices?
What about lots of student loans?

As a member of professional financial markets I know your credit report and score can misrepresent you so why is FIRST involving it? (Yes I am posting this here but I will also be asking questions directly with FIRST about it.)

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I'm kind of confused, are you complaining about FIRST learning all of this personal financial information about you that you just freely volunteered? Are you complaining about being judged on it?

I don't think FIRST's intent is to prohibit people with terrible credit from volunteering, but credit reports can contain background information that may expose certain liabilities. It's not that out of the ordinary for employers, etc to look at credit checks.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Wow, what a problem to have.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

For them to check your credit they would have to have your SSN and there is no reason or requirement to give your SSN. You just have to check the "no SSN" box on the application at least that was how it was the last time I did it.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Both, why are they asking it at all? I previously volunteered that personal information. Asking everyone for it puts PII (personally identifiable information) about all of the submitted finances in FIRST records. Where is FIRST disclosing what they do to protect that information?

FIRST would be the worst employer I ever had in that example. I have to pay them for the privledge. I rarely get the process employers are responsible for closed. I get frequently zero warning about rapid changes impacting my delivery. I do not know what they do with my data. Oh, and I get to sign away basic liability.

What a deal!:eek:

Lucky for FIRST I do not view them as an employer but a charitable group to which I conduct contributions. Otherwise FIRST would be fired as my employer quite a while ago (I have fired employers for less).

My issue is 'least privledge'. I do computer security at a professional level: you should not have anything you do not need.
Cute and what happens if you lie about not having an SSN as an American citizen?

Where I come from you do that on a background check - you fail it.

Being I can walk right past these checks. All the better for me to raise this issue. I have nothing to hide and the credentials to more than make the point. I could easily see other people getting the: "what are you hiding?!" stunt in reply.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

It would seem FIRST is using a new vendor to provide the criminal background checks for volunteers this year. I suspect that the info requested is because that's what's being used by the company doing the checks.

Does it seem like a lot? Not so much for a 50 state criminal background check. It seems minor compared to the FBI interviewing your 3rd grade teacher when you get clearances at certain levels. But it is certainly a lot more than was asked last year.

We aren't privy to the reasoning behind FIRST going a step or two further this year with the YPP background check but I assume FIRST has a reason they're willing to spend $8 per volunteer, so I'm cleared.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Unfortunately that is worded poorly on the application, it does not mean that you do not have a SSN, it means that you are not willing to give your SSN.

We were told when the background checks for main and alternate contacts first started happening to let everyone know that they did not have to give their SSN, and that it would not change whether they passed the background check or not.

So I would say that they reason you got that notification was that you gave your SSN and by law in your state they have to give you that notice because you provided your SSN to them.

I'm pretty certain that information stays with Verified Volunteers and is not passed on to FIRST.

So to any other volunteers DO NOT give your SSN to VV, check the box "no SSN"!

Re: Volunter Verification
 

The cost is a non-issue for me. It is FIRST's failure to explain how they use it or apparently relate important details to volunteers. In fact I accepted the whole cost for the check and fast pass because it was that unimportant to me. That cost may be a factor for someone, but not me. So a valid but somewhat not relevant to the OP point.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

For obvious reasons I need to highlight this.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I let FIRST pay because I figure if I'm going to do at least 3 regionals and 2 championship events they can cover the $8 to find out that my criminal record is spotless.

Sure, it concerns me that FIRST feels they need to do this, but they do, so I can go with it. I don't need the details of how there was a level 38 child sex offender (or whatever) working some event.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

There are serial killers that could walk right through this control. There are also people found innocent of crimes that might fail this because of the credit report criminal background part which can be wrong.

It is hardly a situation that insures beyond all doubt the safety of anyone.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I don't like this either.

However, my love for FIRST trumps my misgivings.

Lawyers.

Go figure.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Wow you really can't fault FIRST for being unable to detect serial killers... Some are totally normal, some are publicly crazy, some have delusions of grandeur, etc...

Re: Volunter Verification
 

In my experience with the companies that I have hired to do background and credit checks they will only report criminal convictions. So you are correct it will not catch the serial killer or sex offender that has not been convicted of the crime, they will also not show pending or dismissed cases. VV may go further and find those pending cases but that may not be allowed by law since in the US you are considered innocent until proven guilty. So it should in theory not cause a problem for a person wrongly accused of a crime and not convicted.

So yes it does not in any way insure safety beyond all doubt, but I feel it is much better than doing nothing which is what FIRST did for many years.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I hate to be cynical about it, but background checks do more to protect the host organization than the participants.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Background checks only filters those that already been caught. But. It would stupid to have volunteers on the various offender registries because you didn't bother to look. 😃

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Another thing the credit report aspect will pull: past addresses reported to credit bureaus. Going deep in every jurisdiction is less practical (for now), but it only makes sense to go deep on known past addresses.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I understand your concern but I passed my verification and didn't get a credit report hit so they didn't check that (unless they have a way to do it without a credit protection company detecting it.)

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I spent 20 years off and on for FIRST.
One does not donate over $100k to directly or indirectly to something like this if they do not care.

However if FIRST has my finance data the controls around it are required and those include reasonable disclosure.

This issue is not the background check, that is at best a red herring (oh the safety....yeah sure), the issue is I see no evidence...at all...FIRST is set up to collect or store a credit report that may include account numbers, my SSN and sufficient information to commit identity theft even if the ID protection is through a credit rating company like Equifax.

In fact it can be done. Two of my previous companies were able to hit my credit report without either ID protection service noticing. I know because I audited both systems.

Even a straight block of credit report requests is not exactly what you would think for Equifax or Experian.

In the end, my concern is not that FIRST has my data...it is that FIRST tells us how they use it and provides security and disclosure as is standard practice. If FIRST were a financial institution this would already have been immediately required.

I can fault anyone if they use the 'past a background check' as a cover for not being otherwise vigilant. Now being vigilant is not perfect either, but it is better then hoping those people you pay with disclaimers all over the place get it right. Cause actual teachers have managed to get all the way through the teacher hiring process repleat with checks and still do things they should not.

Given the length of my involvement in FIRST I can see how volunteers keep coming back. So I also see no disclosure of how they escalate if whoever gets this information has questions. For example, you are a 3 year mentor and FIRST pulled 2 clean reports then pulls that next one and sees a concern for over a year ago. Now what? You already had a volunteer and who knows what went on.

Until last week, my credit report indicated I had an apartment in the Woolworth Building in NYC. The cost of such an apartment would be really huge. Yes I worked at one point in the Woolworth building but I never, ever, used it as a living address. Someone got cute and decided I lived there.

I have lived in the same home for 35 years. They have 2 different addresses and never listen that it is the exact same single family home. The number changed because it was impossible to find the house by the original number, for that matter any house on the road had the same issue. All fun till you need an ambulance and they can not find you.

So no, that feature is pretty useless for this as well.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

So I just went into my VV account and looked at my status. They have a link on how to read your report on the My Profile Tab.


In the middle of the page they show

Level 2: Advanced Criminal History Record Locator Search
Status Icon Government Watch List Search (OFAC)
Status Icon 50 State DOJ Registered Sex Offender Search
Status Icon WA-Washington Judicial Information System State Criminal Search
Includes the following locator products/search tools: - Nationwide Search


I see no indication that they do a credit report, though admittedly I did not provide my SSN. They do show that they used my first, middle and last name as well as my DOB and address in those searches.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Hey,
For those looking for an "official" source this document states you don't need to give an SSN for the process.

On page 12.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Does not say why one might not want to provide their SSN, but it does indicate the process could be delayed if one does not provide the SSN.

It should say what happens if you do provide the SSN.

Also notice the checkbox on the next page about the fair credit reporting act.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

That may be true, but can you blame any organization for trying to protect themselves, regardless of what the organization is intended to do? All it takes is one issue to snowball into lawsuits and more. I know I surely would rather go through a background check, before i'd watch FIRST go through a potentially massive lawsuit.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

They may not pull them in some states

Re: Volunter Verification
 

We get it. You're rich and give a lot of money to FIRST. But I have to ask... what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

FIRST didn't decide what information was needed to perform a background check. They hired a company to handle background checks for them, and set up to collect the info the company told them they need. As many others have said, if it's really that big of a deal for you, don't provide your SSN. If the data they're collecting without it is that big of a deal, don't volunteer. It really is that simple. I know FIRST has lost long-time volunteers when they started the background checks, that's just the reality we live in. deal with it.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Again...the fact I can pass the checks is the reason I am the perfect one to bring it up. Also 'rich' would be quite relative. My income is easily dwarfed. My credit report, and especially my credit score, could be achieved by a college student on a $20k income (just obey the established guidelines as much as possible).

The point is apparent. I routinely undergo background checks where refusing to provide an SSN would be an automatic failure. To suggest it is 'apparent' I should do something that in this one case might result in someone not doing something I can not predict based on the guidance provided by FIRST is illogical.

Volunteering should not be a game of gotcha. If FIRST gets my credit report I demand (this is not a joke to me) to know how it is being used, protected and what the ramifications are. My work secures the financial lives of millions. You wanna know what qualifies me to do that? I take my job freaking as seriously as a heart attack. Cause once you let it get sloppy you increase risk.

What is at stake here? If my credit report is breached I loose access to my credit, my bills go up do to a lower credit score, I loose control over my life. Even at my level that 1 ms breach can turn my life into hell in less than a week with consequences going on for years. At a lower level of financial income that breach may bring pain to your life for decades. Still sound like something you want to play with considering we can not keep spam off ChiefDelphi or the FIRSTInspires website running? In the end a breach does not benefit FIRST either because the reputational harm will ripple.

Seriously, DO NOT put your SSN into the volunteer website till FIRST discloses publicly: how they use your credit report, how they safe gaurd it and the process is described correctly.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

If I recall correctly when I did mine, FIRST doesn't get anything but the results clear or not (and if not I don't think they get that until you've had a chance to object - but not sure on that one).

I can't imagine it to be a smart decision for FIRST to use a vendor that sends full background checks and credit reports on every volunteer to FIRST. They just don't need it.

I recall reading recently an article (will edit if I can find it) about a person with a common name (John Smith or similar) getting denied a job because a background check failed. He submitted his full (w/ middle) name to the employer, but the employer didn't pass along the middle name. The company doing the check (I think it was one of the big 3 credit reporting companies as well) never matched enough data to verify the felon, who had a different middle name, wasn't this guy. The takeaway was that using SSN/credit report to help verify name and prior addresses / timeline helps to match records (or not match records) properly.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

If FIRST does not get the credit report they can solve this by officially declaring it in public. I agree not providing the SSN is a less than ideal solution in the absence of information. If FIRST does not get my credit report I have no further issue with how they handle it.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Did you read the disclaimers when you went through the YPP process -- because that's where I read that.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Please point out where.
If I find it before you I will point it out myself (am traveling).

Trust me, I get no kicks out of having to chase this down.

So far all I have found is this in the YPP FAQ:
"6. The Disclosure to Obtain Consumer Reports for Volunteer Assignment Purposes includes
credit reports why is it necessary to share financial information?
The Federal Trade Commission defines Background Reports as a Consumer Report. The
Consumer Report referred to in the Federal Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) Disclosure is a Criminal
Record Report. FIRST does not obtain credit or financial reports."

The last sentence is in bold red typeface.
Is it stated somewhere else clearly?

Volunter Verification
 

If your background, credit score, etc. are so perfect, why do you care so much about why they are doing this? Is it just for transparencies sake? You've made it clear you have nothing to hide, so why make a big deal out of it. They need to to a background check. Who cares? They're just trying to protect you, your fellow volunteers, student participants, and themselves. If you don't like it, you don't have to volunteer.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

They will still go through the massive lawsuit...Having done some due diligence might prevent them from having to pay out, or might lessen the damages, but they're still getting sued either way.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

There is the 'what do you have to hide?!' I knew could not be resisted. Even if it is, you have nothing to hide so what is the issue?

The answer is: I am a professional in a field directly relevant to global financial information and the security there of, so I need to steer clear of situations where I associate in activities that endanger that security or speak up when I percieve that risk. I chose to speak up.

On the contrary, and no slight intended, if you do not like my responsibility you can feel free not to comment or suggest I have something to hide or keep quiet. Even if I withdrew total support for FIRST tomorrow anything they did while they had support I could be associated with. The same goes for donors: if FIRST has a donor involved in criminal activity or FIRST is found liable of wrong doing.

For example: if I told you I worked for Wells Fargo as a teller and you watched the news recently: tell me you would not wonder (and no, while I have consulted for Wells Fargo, I had nothing to do with their recent account creation issue but you bet if I knew I would have confronted them).

There are risks I am prepared to take and those I am not. I obviously like FIRST but even if I like something does not mean I can play loose. If I play favorites like that it sets a very bad presedence.

To reiterate, I found one explanation from FIRST YPP in their FAQ declaring they are not seeking financial information. I would like to see if there are others elsewhere as has been suggested.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

FIRST provided written guidance that is explicit that the SSN is optional.

See the U.S. Screening Process Step By Step on this page, page 4 of the linked pdf.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

That's good to know because I know I've been going through some sort of thing with FIRST, gotten to the question where they've asked my SSN and decided I'm not doing this and just closed the page.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Which is why they created that guide that says SSN optional but most people probably aren't going to read a guide to do what they figure is going to be filling out their name DOB and address.

I put the whole mess on the company can't put, "I prefer not to give SSN", next to the check box instead of "no SSN". Most people will interpret the No SSN as saying you don't have one, not that you don't want to give it.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

So now that it is apparent someone could screw this up, does FIRST get your credit report if you put in your SSN?

If they do, whether they wanted it or not, they are responsible for safe gaurding it.

Also instructions from a right hand column are not at all smart because English is read left to right. I filled in my application on my smartphone because FIRST sent me a request to register because they needed volunteers. A narrow screen means one is just more likely to not see that instruction on the right.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Again I see nothing that indicates that at the level 2 background check that a credit report is pulled. It seems to me that they use the SSN to verify things that come up when they run a criminal report against the given name.

To me it seems as though the whole credit reporting disclosures at the end are their standard disclosure in case a higher level of background check is being done at the request of that particular organization.

I could imagine that in case where a volunteer could potentially have access to money that the requesting organization would want a credit report. For example I can see not wanting someone with a pile of unpaid bills soliciting cash donations.

I agree that FIRST should put that providing your SSN is optional in what ever communication they make requesting anyone to submit for a background check. No link to a guide, no fine print, no sidebar. Something along the lines of:

Fact is that many people will not want to provide a SSN to a web page and as we have seen noted here some will just close the application when they get to that question. Sharing the fact that the SSN is optional is likely to increase the participation rate. Clearly stating that the process is to check criminal history and whether the applicant is a registered sex offender should chase away those people who know for a fact that one of those things is likely to be found.

The way it is now there is no way to know whether the person decided not to complete the application because they were unwilling to give their SSN, because they knew that they wouldn't pass, or just because they didn't follow through. We don't want to weed out people who are concerned about putting their SSN in yet another data base that could potentially be hacked.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I feel the same way as you one this.

My guess would be that some legal eagle informed FIRST to limit their liability to have the checks performed.

Is it a good idea to protect our children, sure is but FIRST has not fully disclosed who sees what or where the information ends up to protect our rights.

Before you ask, as a Canadian I have gone through the 'vulnerable sector' screening that included having my finger prints sent to the RCMP to have my 'cleared' status confirmed.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Thank you for starting this thread and to the person who posted the link to the PDF where it says you don't have to give it. It is important to speak up about privacy and security. If nobody pushes back, anything can be done under the name of security.

I just filled out the form and chose "No SSN." I understand why they want a criminal background check. I'm not a criminal. I have no problem with that. I don't have a common name so they can easily do that without my SSN. They haven't made a case for why they need my SSN so I'm not providing it.

I have a "real" security clearance for my job. For that I had no problem with providing my social. I understand why they needed it. And why they ask a whole slew of other personal questions. But even the United States government (Office of Personal Management) had a data breach in that space.

I'm a co-volunteer coordinator for the NYC FRC regional. I plan to publicize the "No SSN" option to our volunteers.

As an aside, my state charges $65 for a criminal check on top of the $8 national one.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I did not read through FIRST's guide to filling out this system, and did in fact provide my SSN to Verified Volunteers after verifying with FIRST that they were in fact using this company for our background checks (because the initial email I got was sketchy at best).

Looking through my profile on their website, it does not appear they pulled my credit and I do not have any recent credit inquiries on my report.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Update: I didn't provide my SSN and was cleared within 48 hours. And I put up a blog post about not needing to provide a SSN to give the topic some SEO juice. Including a link to this thread.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I'll chime in here too on this topic. As someone who has collected an impressive number of "we're very sorry that your personal information has been exposed, here have two years of free credit monitoring" forms, I'd really rather not give out anymore information. All of the organizations that were breached promised to be diligent and current on their protections. As the original poster could tell you, every organization at a certain level is being tested constantly. As someone said, you're going to be getting the testing done, it's just whether or not Brian Krebs writes the report.

It's not that I have anything to hide. And certainly other organizations have probably have more data on me. But for me, the question is "Does the benefit to the requesting organization (or myself via that org) outweigh the risks to me?" It's something that you should ask yourself every time you're asked for that data.

Trying to Help

Re: Volunter Verification
 

I highly recommend watching the John Oliver bit on Credit Reporting

Short story, credit reports are being used for things that aren't credit related and this is bad. FIRST (or a volunteer background checking organization) has no reason to review a document that describes my propensity to pay under the guise of a background check. We have a fundamentally bad system here and constitutionally no protections to prohibit the practice.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

But FIRST, nor their background check company is not reviewing your credit report because they aren't pulling one. The reason that they want your SSN is to try and make sure you aren't confused with another Conor Ryan, or maybe Connor Ryan. Sure that other Conor Ryan's arrest may have been several states away but they have no way of knowing it wasn't you when you happened to be visiting there.

Note I'm not saying that you should give your SSN just that there is a good reason they would want it to confirm whether the data is actually about the person who they are checking and not someone with the same or similar name.

Re: Volunter Verification
 

Acknowledging this potential issue: when the background check company contacts you back with the background results they could always request the SSN as additional information in the event the findings are negative. That company could also make clear what information they return to their customers with an example (with fake information of course).

Re: Volunter Verification
 

And the reality is that the last 4 digits would probably be more than enough to verify whether or not it is the same person. It seems highly unlikely that two people would share the same name and last 4 digits of their SSN.