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Rombus 17-10-2016 19:44

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1612229)
Is there any data to back this up, or am I/are we just expected to be forcefed this undying meme of more arenaz = more better? There are traceable examples of cash-strapped/cash-hungry RPCs poaching team sponsors for lavish-ish events in arenas and convention centers, but the idea that teams like arenas is something that to my knowledge is a) unproven, at best and b) a result of the gross miscommunication of the value proposition teams can face when the region focuses on cheaper venues.

Uh Wow! As stated in my post, my data was simply observations while talking to various teams at the two events I volunteered at. I'm not representing all teams in my comments. I'm not a member of any RPC or any PC, just a voluenter. Also I hardly would call the Albany and Columbus Arenas "lavish". In any case, the hostility in your post is a bit shocking and lacking in GP IMHO. I was just trying to provide another opinion.

PayneTrain 17-10-2016 20:01

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612233)
Uh Wow! As stated in my post, my data was simply observations while talking to various teams at the two events I volunteered at. I'm not representing all teams in my comments. I'm not a member of any RPC or any PC, just a voluenter. Also I hardly would call the Albany and Columbus Arenas "lavish". In any case, the hostility in your post is a bit shocking and lacking in GP IMHO. I was just trying to provide another opinion.

There was nothing targeted towards you, just the idea that you proposed. I never said you were part of anything, nor did I claim any venues Georgia uses to be lavish. If I were to target you, I would target how you crafted an impressive persecution complex out of thin air to justify pulling the "GP" card in an attempt to discredit an opinion that you may find uncomfortable. But I won't because that would be unGP.

TDav540 17-10-2016 23:03

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
In Columbus and Albany, I felt there were very appropriate sized crowds. Of course your not filling the stands for every qualification match, but I did not see that at worlds either. I know some of the teams I talked to enjoyed the fact it was at an "Arena". It made it an event to them, something more memorable than a high school gym. Some teams that go to the districts wont make the state championship. Most teams that go to states wont get to Worlds, but if GA First can make it an memorable event for every competing team for the time being, then why not? :) Its inevitable that High School events will be the future, especially if FIRST Grows, but i think we have quite a few years before that's the norm.

Sure, have state championship in an arena. I've got no problem with that. I like the idea of bringing the championship experience down to the DCMP level.

But the idea that we had appropriate sized crowds any event, but especially Albany, is ridiculous. There were probably around 100 people in the stands at any given time during quals at Albany, in a stadium designed to seat several thousand. Call me crazy, but that's not appropriate: that's tons of wasted space.

Don't even get me started on Columbus. We've all been scarred by the astro turf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
The other nice part of "Arena" scale events is you can have the local community tie into the event. The Columbus event was part of a Mini MakerFair, and was used by the local schools to drum up interest in STEM for the grade and middle-schoolers who don't have FTC/FFL Teams yet.

Sure, yeah that's cool. Why can't we do that at a high school though? The Atlanta Maker Faire held this past month was held on a high school football field. Don't see why that couldn't happen....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
On a purely selfish note: Things like a Loading Dock and proper facilities to accept Semis make load in and load out much easier on the volunteers. I got to experience 2 years of helping load in and load out a off season high school based event back in '10 and '11 when the field fit in the back of a 27' box truck. The one bay loading dock was off the lunch room kitchen. Some of the road cases barely fit and required some expert maneuvering. It sounds silly, but even the little things like this make a big difference when it comes to how smooth an event can go.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1612229)
Is there any data to back this up, or am I/are we just expected to be forcefed this undying meme of more arenaz = more better? There are traceable examples of cash-strapped/cash-hungry RPCs poaching team sponsors for lavish-ish events in arenas and convention centers, but the idea that teams like arenas is something that to my knowledge is a) unproven, at best and b) a result of the gross miscommunication of the value proposition teams can face when the region focuses on cheaper venues.

To my knowledge this isn't a money issue; this is GeorgiaFIRST partnering with colleges, and instead of a pure donation asking for free/deeply discounted venue space. In that sense, it's definitely not a bad deal. But I think (and like I've said, this a personal opinion) that venue quality and location is sometimes sacrificed in the name of networking with colleges.

DonShaw 19-10-2016 12:11

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one

I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Oh, and please refer to my post last year about the district model and cost and locations of events. Like it or hate it, it is a reality of the dollar ruling life. We go where the dollar comes from via sponsor and support.

Not happy about the travel/cost but have to live with it until another viable solution presents itself.

Christopher149 19-10-2016 12:19

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
...what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams... Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Uh, every Michigan district event aims to be 40 teams. So, something in what you wrote seems confusing. The largest GA event last year (Columbus) was 40 teams. So you're saying MI can do it in high schools because of small event size, but you seem to contend that GA needs even smaller events than MI.

Mr V 19-10-2016 12:55

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one

I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Oh, and please refer to my post last year about the district model and cost and locations of events. Like it or hate it, it is a reality of the dollar ruling life. We go where the dollar comes from via sponsor and support.

Not happy about the travel/cost but have to live with it until another viable solution presents itself.

The minimum number of teams that we have in the PNW events is 28 and I believe that is something that was handed down from FIRST. This is done so that there are enough teams for the finals and a back up or two. The potential for a robot not to be functioning at the end of 12 matches is non-trival. Also 12 qualifying matches is the mandate from FIRST. So depending on the number of matches at the regional the team traditionally attended 1 district event gives you more qualifying matches and better chance at a couple of finals matches.

The number of fields certainly does limit the number of events as with the new split champs the goal is to have all the district events in weeks 1-5 and DCMP week 6. The field and all of the rest of the supporting equipment is not cheap so it doesn't make sense to go to a second field until you have 90 plus teams.

HS sizing does play a role in the number of teams you can have at an event. There are a couple in the PNW that have had caps lower than 40 teams in the past because there just wasn't enough pit space.

Selecting the locations is a lot of work. You do have to work around the other things the locations may have scheduled, the desire to spread them around the area and to try and have week 2 not next door to weeks 1 and 3 ect so that hopefully it is a reasonable possibility that teams don't have to do back to back events if they choose the two closest events. For example in the PNW we have two events in the same town/school district. One is traditionally week 1 and the other has been week 6 or 5.

Then of course are the amenities at the school are their 2 20a circiuts in the gym to run the FMS and the AV so they can run on separate circuits. What about the pits you need 1 20a circuit per 4~6 teams and another for inspection, pit admin. If you don't have that then you need a generator and power distribution system which adds to the cost. In the PNW we did spend the money for two power distribution systems and we have a great partner in a rental company that gives us reduced rates for generators and fork lifts.

TL/DR; Selecting locations for district events is not easy with a number of things that have to be considered and all come together with the other locations as well. It is not an easy task and takes a lot of person power.

TDav540 19-10-2016 13:11

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Not sure what world you're living in, but every single Michigan event has about 40 teams when all is said and done. It's your choice to think a 24 team event is better than a 40 team event, but we (both your team and mine) got no extra matches at the 25-team Albany than we did at 40-team Columbus. Even more than that, once alliance selection got to the end, there was very little depth to pick a third robot. I personally like picking from quality teams to round out my alliance.

And yeah, the idea is to make smaller events and have more of them. That's how the district model works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one.

I don't see how your first sentence relates the two statements. I know that G3 got more plays for the cost, and I know that any team which attended one or even two regionals got more also. And I know the chance of going to Worlds for most teams in the state went WAY up when going to districts. Sure, the cost to get to worlds is higher. But that has been discussed endlessly and I'm not sure how the location of the district events makes much difference from that end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Uh yeah. Not to mention that we don't really need more events? Maybe a fifth (next year, I think), but otherwise we're fine.

The DOE on board would definitely help, but by no means is it a requirement. It just takes some teams working together with local partners to put an event on at the local HS.

kristinweiss 19-10-2016 13:26

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDav540 (Post 1612529)
Even more than that, once alliance selection got to the end, there was very little depth to pick a third robot. I personally like picking from quality teams to round out my alliance.

Going off of this, at the smaller events last year where there were only 24 or 25 teams total, almost every robot got picked for elimination, and the "worst" robots at the competition ended up on the top alliances and won events. Because of this, you had many teams get enough district points to make it to state even if they never moved during the competition. I personally would be in favor of Georgia having only 3 events total with around 40 teams each until we can do a better job of "filling up" 4 events. I would say that the ideal locations for events based on where teams are actually located would be somewhere inside the perimeter, somewhere in Roswell or Marietta, and somewhere near Macon.

BenDSterling 19-10-2016 13:36

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
We might be able to do a 5th qualifying event in a year or two, but it definitely won't be a smaller event. We aim to have around 30 teams per event (this isn't decided fully by us, FIRST has a big say in how many teams per event and how many events per district.

The main reason we don't have more events is cost. The events are EXPENSIVE to put on. They are even more expensive is we have overlapping events. Not only does it take a lot of money, but also man-power. Georgia is currently set up to NOT be able to handle overlapping events. We have purchased our AV system, out power distribution system, the field, and A LOT of other stuff. This substantially cuts down on cost. If we have overlapping events, we then have to rent a large amount of equipment to support the second event. Now I know what you are thinking, we did it last year with Albany and Dalton. Well there is a reason we are not trying it again this year. Those events were FAR too expensive and did not nearly have enough volunteers. So overlapping events is out of the picture (for as long as possible).

A 5th event is definitely possible in a year or two, once Georgia has more teams, but this event definitely won't have 24 teams attending. It will be much closer to 30.

Location wise, I would like to see events in the filling places:
- Marietta/Kenessaw
- Gainsville
- Columbus
- Inner-City
And the put state at the Georgia World Congress Center or Philips Arena (expensive but definitely doable). The reason for these locations is partially because of where teams are located and partly because of venues.

TDav540 19-10-2016 13:49

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1612534)
Location wise, I would like to see events in the filling places:
- Marietta/Kenessaw
- Gainsville
- Columbus
- Inner-City
And the put state at the Georgia World Congress Center or Philips Arena. The reason for these locations is partially because of where teams are located and partly because of venues.

Phillips Arena would be awesome.

Not sure Columbus makes a lot of sense long term. There's only a couple teams down there, and it fills well because it's on the Interstate system. But I think it would be better to have one in Macon and another in Savannah/Statesboro. The teams in Southeast Georgia really get the short end of the stick, and having an event out there would not only really help growth, but also decrease the enormous travel costs those teams have.

So the breakdown would be:
- Marietta
- Gainesville
- Inner-City
- Macon/Clarkson/Perry
- Savannah/Statesboro
- DCMP: Athens or Atlanta

FrankJ 19-10-2016 15:21

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Disclosure: I don't represent GAF in any way. I don't even represent my team on this forum

We hosted Grits (Georgia's off season event) last year at our school. Along with a lot of help from GaF and our friends. We had enough pit room for 30-35 teams. 40 would have been squeeze. A long time NE district mentor/volunteer that attended told me that we could have hosted a district in the same space.

One of GAF's goals with working with colleges is FRC students are a natural feeder for the colleges. Benefits are for more tangible than space for the competition. Kennesaw college already provides time on their water jet. GaTech has helped in a lot of ways. Of course they did that way before districts. Albany tech has spawned a bunch of teams. I wouldn't be surprised to see more teams in the Columbus area as well. (Columbus is at a different location this year. Bouncy field is no more) Georgia's First's goal is to represent all of GA. Not just Atlanta Metro. Although it would be nice to place one district where the bulk of the teams are. (Phillips & GWCC both not a possibility price wise)

Current district registration; Gainesville 32-full, Dalton-26, Columbus-32-full, Albany-22. So for now 3-4 districts is about right. For those of you unfamiliar with Ga topography: Gainesville is practically north Atlanta. Dalton is 1 hour NW of Atlanta. Columbus is 2hr SW of Atlanta on the interstate adequate infrastructure. Albany is 3 hours south of Atlanta and smallish infrastructure wise. Other state possibilities are Augusta-home of Savannah River Plant & Augusta National Golf (3 hrs), Georgia Southern & Statesboro (3.5 hrs in tha middle of a swamp), Savannah (4 hours on the coast).

Billfred 19-10-2016 16:09

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Hi, I attended the smallest official event in FRC last season: the FIRST North Carolina District - UNC Asheville Event. 24 teams, two of them from out-of-district. A quirk of it being in North Carolina is that our head referee was FRC Chief Referee Aidan Browne. I asked him what would've happened if one of those teams no-showed or was busted beyond repair and declined. His answer? Because there's nothing in the manual to address that special situation, "Alliance 1 would play with two robots."

Which, while exactly what the rules dictate, would've been the biggest load of horse manure for the #1 seed ever. They couldn't even capture, since that by rule calls for three robots. The reward for being the top seed at the event would almost certainly be a swift quarterfinal exit.

So yeah. 30-something is a healthy number.

MARS_James 19-10-2016 19:50

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year.

Hello I represent a regional team (179) who would like to compare our cost to attend and event vs your teams (1261) cost to attend an event strictly in terms of the cost of the event not counting travel cost as FIRST/Whatever governing body has control over how much it costs us to go to an event but not how much it costs to get and stay there. That sounded much better in my head but moving on lets compare shall we!

Event 1: Palmetto Regional vs PCH District - Columbus Event
179 Cost: $5,000
1261 Cost: $5,000
179 Number of Matches: 15 (9 Qualifying + 7 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 16 (12 Qualifying + 4 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event:$333.34 ($555.56 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event:$312.50 ($416.67 per Guaranteed Match)

Event 2: Rocket City Regional vs PCH District - Albany Event
179 Cost: $4,000
1261 Cost: $0
179 Number of Matches: 16 (10 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 18 (12 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event: $250 ($400 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $0 ($0 per Guaranteed Match)

179 Total Cost For First 2 Events: $9,000. $290.33 Per Match. $500 Per Guaranteed Match
1261 Cost For First 2 Events: $5,000. $147.06 Per Match. $208.34 Per Guaranteed Match

So after our first two events this is how we compare cost analysis wise. This is why districts save teams money. Looking at what every team is guaranteed specifically regardless of robot quality you are at a greater than 50% discount from my team after our first two events.

But both our teams decided to do more than just 2 qualifying events so lets look at our third events to see our cost analysis there.

Event 3: South Florida Regional vs PCH District - Kennesaw Event
179 Cost: $4,000
1261 Cost: $1,000
179 Number of Matches: 18 (9 Qualifying + 9 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 19 (12 Qualifying + 7 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event: $222.23 ($444.45 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $52.64 ($83.34 per Guaranteed Match)

So your third event costs 1/4th what mine did, and shows by being less than 1/4th of the cost per match because you get more matches.

Looking at the season after your third event the totals come to:
179 Total Cost For First 3 Events: $13,000. $265.31 Per Match. $464.29 Per Guaranteed Match
1261 Cost For First 3 Events: $6,000. $113.21 Per Match. $166.67 Per Guaranteed Match

So after all of our comparable events you are spending less than half of the amount of money. But to be far before we get to championships you did have one more event.

Event 4: Peachtree District State Championship
1261 Cost: $4,000
1261 Number of Matches: 18 (12 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $222.23 ($333.34 per Guaranteed Match)

So lets compare the entire season leading up to Championship:

179
Total Events: 3
Total Cost: $13,000
Average Cost Per Event: $4,333.34
Average Cost Per Match: $265.31
Average Cost of Guaranteed Match: $464.29

1261
Total Events: 4
Total Cost: $10,000
Average Cost Per Event: $2.500
Average Cost Per Match: $140.85
Average Cost of Guaranteed Match: $208.34


So your team was able to attend more events, for less money, had more matches per event, and just for fun it appears that based on Distance and time from the location of your school to the events you only needed to stay over night for your first two events, and with those events being districts that is two nights in hotels total. My team also had to do an overnight travel for two of our events, but since we are regional team, and our distance was quite a bit further (1261 Travel Distance/Time: 172.5 Miles or 3 hours average distance. 179 Travel Distance/Time: 703 Miles or 11.5 hours average distance) we had to stay a total of 8 nights. So assuming that the cost of hotels wasn't drastically different our cost for travel was roughly 8 times greater per person.

I am sorry if this is coming off as an attack but I just don't think you realize how much of a great deal switching to a district is, and how much more effort a team not in a district has to put in to be able to compete at 3 events.

ttldomination 20-10-2016 18:30

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1612546)
Gainesville is practically north Atlanta.

Eh, not really.

Gainesville is approximately 1 hour north of Atlanta.
Dalton is approximately 1.5 hours north of Atlanta.

If we're getting technical here, I would define North Atlanta as the area formed between I85, I75, and I285.

Inner-Atlanta teams (4468, 1648, etc.) can probably speak more to this, but depending on where you live, I would consider Gainesville a travel event.

- Sunny G.

kristinweiss 20-10-2016 18:54

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 1612770)
Inner-Atlanta teams (4468, 1648, etc.) can probably speak more to this, but depending on where you live, I would consider Gainesville a travel event.

One of the reasons that our team opted not to load in Friday night for GRITS is because Gainesville is easily over a two hour drive in traffic, and to load in on Friday we would have to leave in the middle of rush hour traffic. I would not be suprised if our team opts to get hotel rooms for the Gainesville district event considering it is not necessarily worth making the long drive in each direction every day, especially considering competitions are such long days.


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