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kristinweiss 13-10-2016 13:50

Location of Georgia District Events
 
As a part of an Atlanta based team who will be driving over an hour to our closest district event this year, I decided to map out all of the Georgia FRC teams and the location of our four district events this year to see how far other teams will be having to travel too. The results are kind of shocking as it appears that none of the district events are in parts of the state where we have large clusters of teams. I figured others may be interested in seeing the map and I am interested to hear what others think of this. I know here in Georgia, hosting events at high schools tends to be frowned upon, but I think it is a bit much to go this far out of the way of teams just to find non-high school venues to host events.

Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=13d...rA&usp=sharing

*If I forgot a team or have a team in the wrong location please let me know so that I can fix it!

BenDSterling 15-10-2016 03:32

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kristinweiss (Post 1611669)
As a part of an Atlanta based team who will be driving over an hour to our closest district event this year, I decided to map out all of the Georgia FRC teams and the location of our four district events this year to see how far other teams will be having to travel too. The results are kind of shocking as it appears that none of the district events are in parts of the state where we have large clusters of teams. I figured others may be interested in seeing the map and I am interested to hear what others think of this. I know here in Georgia, hosting events at high schools tends to be frowned upon, but I think it is a bit much to go this far out of the way of teams just to find non-high school venues to host events. [/size]

I like then map! I agree the competitions are way too far away from the majority of the teams. I didn't really realize how bad it was until I saw the map. It also makes it hard for volunteers, as most of the volunteers are in the same areas as most of the teams.

That being said, there is a reason the completions are so far away, and it isn't on purpose. This is already being worked on for next year. High school are just too small to host FRC competitions. Anyone who was at the KSU event last year knows how tight that was, and high schools would most likely be smaller. Hopefully next year we will be able to secure sole venues in the Kennesaw/Marietta/Roswell/Alpharetta area.

GaryVoshol 15-10-2016 07:05

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611883)
High school are just too small to host FRC competitions.

FIM begs to differ with you.

17 of our competitions are in high schools.

cadandcookies 15-10-2016 08:02

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1611887)
FIM begs to differ with you.

17 of our competitions are in high schools.

High school sizes vary significantly depending on the state. This is to say nothing of differences in format/construction or cultural aspects that may lead to building larger gymnasiums that are suitable for events. Whether it works in Michigan may or may not have a bearing on whether it will work in Georgia.

Anupam Goli 15-10-2016 13:00

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611883)
I like then map! I agree the competitions are way too far away from the majority of the teams. I didn't really realize how bad it was until I saw the map. It also makes it hard for volunteers, as most of the volunteers are in the same areas as most of the teams.

That being said, there is a reason the completions are so far away, and it isn't on purpose. This is already being worked on for next year. High school are just too small to host FRC competitions. Anyone who was at the KSU event last year knows how tight that was, and high schools would most likely be smaller. Hopefully next year we will be able to secure sole venues in the Kennesaw/Marietta/Roswell/Alpharetta area.

The GRITS offseason event was hosted at a high school in 2015. I do think we have some larger 6A schools in the Metro Area that can host district events. What I heard initially was the reason for the locations was due to an effort to expose students to in-state technical colleges and universities. The district events are partially hosted by engineering and technology departments at Columbus State University, Albany Tech, Dalton State College, and Riverside Military Academy (a college-prep school). I'm hoping the switch to Riverside Military from KSU indicates that we are exploring high school venues.

While it is a noble effort, I believe that a convention at the state championship, ALA the Championship Event would be better to educate and raise awareness of in-state engineering and technology degree programs. The district events themselves should be cheap and easy to travel to.

BenDSterling 15-10-2016 13:28

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1611904)
The GRITS offseason event was hosted at a high school in 2015. I do think we have some larger 6A schools in the Metro Area that can host district events. What I heard initially was the reason for the locations was due to an effort to expose students to in-state technical colleges and universities. The district events are partially hosted by engineering and technology departments at Columbus State University, Albany Tech, Dalton State College, and Riverside Military Academy (a college-prep school). I'm hoping the switch to Riverside Military from KSU indicates that we are exploring high school venues.

While it is a noble effort, I believe that a convention at the state championship, ALA the Championship Event would be better to educate and raise awareness of in-state engineering and technology degree programs. The district events themselves should be cheap and easy to travel to.

You are right about wanting to expose the students to in-state technical colleges. That is one of the reasons we tried colleges before convention centers (although dalton and Albany will be in convention centers). We also try to partner with the colleges for support (for example at KSU they did a lot of the AV, and at UGA they brought a LOT of volunteers).

When I said high schools are too small I did not just mean space, but also resources. For example for Riverside Military Academy, we have to bring in a generator for power (which is a big hassle). Highs school venues simply are not designed to hold large events. In addition, High Schools tend to put school events first, making it hard to find a date that works for us the them.

As for the reason we went for Riverside Military Academy over KSU, it wasn't our choice. KSU said no to hosting both GRITS and a District Event (due to basketball). We did try to find another venue in the area but were unable to do so. This is why we went with Riverside Military Academy. One thing to note on Riverside Military Academy is that although it is a high school, it is definitely not a high school gym. This venue is about 7x the size of all the high school gyms we looked at. You could almost fit 9 full basketball courts inside the room. So this high school worked out size wise but most high school don't have a venue event remotely that large.

ebarker 15-10-2016 14:05

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611907)
KSU said no to hosting both GRITS and a District Event.

The reason for the KSU 'no' has to do with building scheduling, not a desire to host the event. KSU would extremely love to host but there are extreme demands on buildings, and academic requirements are always at the front of the line.

So hopefully, a proper dedicated facility can be built on campus, then KSU can host many many events with much love.

PayneTrain 15-10-2016 14:29

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611907)
When I said high schools are too small I did not just mean space, but also resources. For example for Riverside Military Academy, we have to bring in a generator for power (which is a big hassle). In addition, High Schools tend to put school events first, making it hard to find a date that works for us the them.

I will wager a guess that inner city Atlanta teams needing to travel nontrivial distances for all 2-3 of their PCH events would also consider that a hassle.

BenDSterling 15-10-2016 14:34

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ebarker (Post 1611909)
The reason for the KSU 'no' has to do with building scheduling, not a desire to host the event. KSU would extremely love to host but there are extreme demands on buildings, and academic requirements are always at the front of the line.

So hopefully, a proper dedicated facility can be built on campus, then KSU can host many many events with much love.

KSU was great to work with last year and I hope we will be able to have events there next year (although the gym was a little small). They were very welcoming and understanding.

Anupam Goli 15-10-2016 14:35

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1611912)
I will wager a guess that inner city Atlanta teams needing to travel nontrivial distances for all 2-3 of their PCH events would also consider that a hassle.

1648 tries to coordinate travel with the other Atlanta Public School teams so that we can all share buses, hotels, and travel costs in general. We believe that reducing the financial requirements for a team to be able to compete is the best way to increase sustainability and impact to students in the district system.

Ginger Bread 15-10-2016 23:04

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Yeah, 4941 was planning to go to Columbus, but it was full when we registered for our second event and now we have to go all the way to Gainseville and deal with the Atlanta traffic on load in day. The Perry regional in 2015 was nice for us, and I think Peachtree and Perry were fairly central locations for Georgia teams that year. I would think that if we could get the Congress center in Atlanta for district champs instead of UGA (not many teams very close to Athens although a great venue), then it would be more centralized for pch teams. But things probably won't get changed to fit distribution of teams until more teams in southern and central Georgia emerge.

TDav540 17-10-2016 12:12

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611883)
I like then map! I agree the competitions are way too far away from the majority of the teams. I didn't really realize how bad it was until I saw the map. It also makes it hard for volunteers, as most of the volunteers are in the same areas as most of the teams.

That being said, there is a reason the completions are so far away, and it isn't on purpose. This is already being worked on for next year. High school are just too small to host FRC competitions. Anyone who was at the KSU event last year knows how tight that was, and high schools would most likely be smaller. Hopefully next year we will be able to secure sole venues in the Kennesaw/Marietta/Roswell/Alpharetta area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1611907)
You are right about wanting to expose the students to in-state technical colleges. That is one of the reasons we tried colleges before convention centers (although dalton and Albany will be in convention centers). We also try to partner with the colleges for support (for example at KSU they did a lot of the AV, and at UGA they brought a LOT of volunteers).

When I said high schools are too small I did not just mean space, but also resources. For example for Riverside Military Academy, we have to bring in a generator for power (which is a big hassle). Highs school venues simply are not designed to hold large events. In addition, High Schools tend to put school events first, making it hard to find a date that works for us the them.

As for the reason we went for Riverside Military Academy over KSU, it wasn't our choice. KSU said no to hosting both GRITS and a District Event (due to basketball). We did try to find another venue in the area but were unable to do so. This is why we went with Riverside Military Academy. One thing to note on Riverside Military Academy is that although it is a high school, it is definitely not a high school gym. This venue is about 7x the size of all the high school gyms we looked at. You could almost fit 9 full basketball courts inside the room. So this high school worked out size wise but most high school don't have a venue event remotely that large.

High schools being too small, having a bad atmosphere or being bad venues is by and large a complete and total myth.

Of course not all high schools have the capacity to work. Hosting an event requires at least two large buildings on campus at a minimum, plus appropriate connecting hallways and paths. You need seating for all the teams, plus a some extra for VIPs and people off the streets. And no, it's not going to be as glamorous as Worlds. Sometimes, there are miscommunications and schedule issues, but colleges are exactly the same way.

But it doesn't have to be, and overall, I at least find high schools to be better venues than the locations we had last year, not worse. Stadium seating is nice, as it produces good sight lines and better seats than bleachers. But when you barely have a hundred people in the stands, then it looks much, much worse than any gym. I would rather have a filled crowd, actively engaged in the game and making for an exciting environment rather than an empty stadium and playing in front of nobody.

The problem you seem to be referring to is not the seating, however, but the space in the pits. And there I agree with you. At both Albany and KSU, there were barely enough rooms for the teams there, not to mention a practice field and any other important resources. But just because the venue has less seating doesn't mean pits will be smaller. Most high schools with a second gym would much more easily fit a practice field and 40 pits than KSU fit a half field and 36 teams.

I'm well acquainted with the Chesapeake district, and I got a large amount of feedback that supported Southwest VA in Christiansburg, VA as a one of the best venues in 2016. Can you guess where that one was held?

You don't need nine basketball courts to have a fantastic event.

As we have found with Kennesaw and many other universities this year, there will be challenges to getting the exact right locations. Am I a fan of the locations of the events? Absolutely not, but they could be worse. Do I enjoy the massive amount of seating capacity these venues have? I don't see anything else as more pointless. But I understand why these locations are where they are. I do believe that if you want to drive team growth in an area, there are few better ways to do so than have events there. So while there really should be an Atlanta-based event (inner-city team travel is a very big issue), I understand where GeorgiaFIRST is coming from.

High schools will eventually become the norm. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Sidenote: Both Albany and Dalton are associated with technical colleges in the area. Gainesville is truly connected to Lanier Technical College, which hosts their athletic events at Riverside Military Academy. All of this partnership is designed to help nurture a great relationship between the universities and technical colleges of GA and GeorgiaFIRST.

Rombus 17-10-2016 18:07

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDav540 (Post 1612126)
High schools being too small, having a bad atmosphere or being bad venues is by and large a complete and total myth.
....
And no, it's not going to be as glamorous as Worlds.
....
But when you barely have a hundred people in the stands, then it looks much, much worse than any gym. I would rather have a filled crowd, actively engaged in the game and making for an exciting environment rather than an empty stadium and playing in front of nobody.
....
High schools will eventually become the norm. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

In Columbus and Albany, I felt there were very appropriate sized crowds. Of course your not filling the stands for every qualification match, but I did not see that at worlds either. I know some of the teams I talked to enjoyed the fact it was at an "Arena". It made it an event to them, something more memorable than a high school gym. Some teams that go to the districts wont make the state championship. Most teams that go to states wont get to Worlds, but if GA First can make it an memorable event for every competing team for the time being, then why not? :) Its inevitable that High School events will be the future, especially if FIRST Grows, but i think we have quite a few years before that's the norm.

The other nice part of "Arena" scale events is you can have the local community tie into the event. The Columbus event was part of a Mini MakerFair, and was used by the local schools to drum up interest in STEM for the grade and middle-schoolers who don't have FTC/FFL Teams yet.

On a purely selfish note: Things like a Loading Dock and proper facilities to accept Semis make load in and load out much easier on the volunteers. I got to experience 2 years of helping load in and load out a off season high school based event back in '10 and '11 when the field fit in the back of a 27' box truck. The one bay loading dock was off the lunch room kitchen. Some of the road cases barely fit and required some expert maneuvering. It sounds silly, but even the little things like this make a big difference when it comes to how smooth an event can go.

Billfred 17-10-2016 18:21

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
I have no dog in this fight, but I will contribute the following:

1) Ooof, yeah, I would've thought the Atlanta metro area would've been able to line up something.
2) This should be incentive for metro Atlanta teams to work on a bid for next year. I don't know the Peachtree process and couldn't find it on their website, but if it's anything like the IndianaFIRST process (which played out, in part, one desk over from me at work so I started to get a handle on some concepts) I doubt they'd mind having additional viable host options. Like Ed Barker said above, venue availability is everything for where district events can be held. Reach out and ask.
3) I had heard once that the Horry County school district is a sponsor of the Palmetto Regional partly because it's cheaper for them to incentivize the event in Myrtle Beach than pay travel for their teams to play elsewhere. With the Atlanta schools pooling on travel, that may be an angle to work with the powers that be.

PayneTrain 17-10-2016 18:55

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
In Columbus and Albany, I felt there were very appropriate sized crowds. Of course your not filling the stands for every qualification match, but I did not see that at worlds either. I know some of the teams I talked to enjoyed the fact it was at an "Arena". It made it an event to them, something more memorable than a high school gym.

Is there any data to back this up, or am I/are we just expected to be forcefed this undying meme of more arenaz = more better? There are traceable examples of cash-strapped/cash-hungry RPCs poaching team sponsors for lavish-ish events in arenas and convention centers, but the idea that teams like arenas is something that to my knowledge is a) unproven, at best and b) a result of the gross miscommunication of the value proposition teams can face when the region focuses on cheaper venues.

Rombus 17-10-2016 19:44

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1612229)
Is there any data to back this up, or am I/are we just expected to be forcefed this undying meme of more arenaz = more better? There are traceable examples of cash-strapped/cash-hungry RPCs poaching team sponsors for lavish-ish events in arenas and convention centers, but the idea that teams like arenas is something that to my knowledge is a) unproven, at best and b) a result of the gross miscommunication of the value proposition teams can face when the region focuses on cheaper venues.

Uh Wow! As stated in my post, my data was simply observations while talking to various teams at the two events I volunteered at. I'm not representing all teams in my comments. I'm not a member of any RPC or any PC, just a voluenter. Also I hardly would call the Albany and Columbus Arenas "lavish". In any case, the hostility in your post is a bit shocking and lacking in GP IMHO. I was just trying to provide another opinion.

PayneTrain 17-10-2016 20:01

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612233)
Uh Wow! As stated in my post, my data was simply observations while talking to various teams at the two events I volunteered at. I'm not representing all teams in my comments. I'm not a member of any RPC or any PC, just a voluenter. Also I hardly would call the Albany and Columbus Arenas "lavish". In any case, the hostility in your post is a bit shocking and lacking in GP IMHO. I was just trying to provide another opinion.

There was nothing targeted towards you, just the idea that you proposed. I never said you were part of anything, nor did I claim any venues Georgia uses to be lavish. If I were to target you, I would target how you crafted an impressive persecution complex out of thin air to justify pulling the "GP" card in an attempt to discredit an opinion that you may find uncomfortable. But I won't because that would be unGP.

TDav540 17-10-2016 23:03

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
In Columbus and Albany, I felt there were very appropriate sized crowds. Of course your not filling the stands for every qualification match, but I did not see that at worlds either. I know some of the teams I talked to enjoyed the fact it was at an "Arena". It made it an event to them, something more memorable than a high school gym. Some teams that go to the districts wont make the state championship. Most teams that go to states wont get to Worlds, but if GA First can make it an memorable event for every competing team for the time being, then why not? :) Its inevitable that High School events will be the future, especially if FIRST Grows, but i think we have quite a few years before that's the norm.

Sure, have state championship in an arena. I've got no problem with that. I like the idea of bringing the championship experience down to the DCMP level.

But the idea that we had appropriate sized crowds any event, but especially Albany, is ridiculous. There were probably around 100 people in the stands at any given time during quals at Albany, in a stadium designed to seat several thousand. Call me crazy, but that's not appropriate: that's tons of wasted space.

Don't even get me started on Columbus. We've all been scarred by the astro turf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
The other nice part of "Arena" scale events is you can have the local community tie into the event. The Columbus event was part of a Mini MakerFair, and was used by the local schools to drum up interest in STEM for the grade and middle-schoolers who don't have FTC/FFL Teams yet.

Sure, yeah that's cool. Why can't we do that at a high school though? The Atlanta Maker Faire held this past month was held on a high school football field. Don't see why that couldn't happen....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombus (Post 1612223)
On a purely selfish note: Things like a Loading Dock and proper facilities to accept Semis make load in and load out much easier on the volunteers. I got to experience 2 years of helping load in and load out a off season high school based event back in '10 and '11 when the field fit in the back of a 27' box truck. The one bay loading dock was off the lunch room kitchen. Some of the road cases barely fit and required some expert maneuvering. It sounds silly, but even the little things like this make a big difference when it comes to how smooth an event can go.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1612229)
Is there any data to back this up, or am I/are we just expected to be forcefed this undying meme of more arenaz = more better? There are traceable examples of cash-strapped/cash-hungry RPCs poaching team sponsors for lavish-ish events in arenas and convention centers, but the idea that teams like arenas is something that to my knowledge is a) unproven, at best and b) a result of the gross miscommunication of the value proposition teams can face when the region focuses on cheaper venues.

To my knowledge this isn't a money issue; this is GeorgiaFIRST partnering with colleges, and instead of a pure donation asking for free/deeply discounted venue space. In that sense, it's definitely not a bad deal. But I think (and like I've said, this a personal opinion) that venue quality and location is sometimes sacrificed in the name of networking with colleges.

DonShaw 19-10-2016 12:11

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one

I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Oh, and please refer to my post last year about the district model and cost and locations of events. Like it or hate it, it is a reality of the dollar ruling life. We go where the dollar comes from via sponsor and support.

Not happy about the travel/cost but have to live with it until another viable solution presents itself.

Christopher149 19-10-2016 12:19

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
...what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams... Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Uh, every Michigan district event aims to be 40 teams. So, something in what you wrote seems confusing. The largest GA event last year (Columbus) was 40 teams. So you're saying MI can do it in high schools because of small event size, but you seem to contend that GA needs even smaller events than MI.

Mr V 19-10-2016 12:55

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one

I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Oh, and please refer to my post last year about the district model and cost and locations of events. Like it or hate it, it is a reality of the dollar ruling life. We go where the dollar comes from via sponsor and support.

Not happy about the travel/cost but have to live with it until another viable solution presents itself.

The minimum number of teams that we have in the PNW events is 28 and I believe that is something that was handed down from FIRST. This is done so that there are enough teams for the finals and a back up or two. The potential for a robot not to be functioning at the end of 12 matches is non-trival. Also 12 qualifying matches is the mandate from FIRST. So depending on the number of matches at the regional the team traditionally attended 1 district event gives you more qualifying matches and better chance at a couple of finals matches.

The number of fields certainly does limit the number of events as with the new split champs the goal is to have all the district events in weeks 1-5 and DCMP week 6. The field and all of the rest of the supporting equipment is not cheap so it doesn't make sense to go to a second field until you have 90 plus teams.

HS sizing does play a role in the number of teams you can have at an event. There are a couple in the PNW that have had caps lower than 40 teams in the past because there just wasn't enough pit space.

Selecting the locations is a lot of work. You do have to work around the other things the locations may have scheduled, the desire to spread them around the area and to try and have week 2 not next door to weeks 1 and 3 ect so that hopefully it is a reasonable possibility that teams don't have to do back to back events if they choose the two closest events. For example in the PNW we have two events in the same town/school district. One is traditionally week 1 and the other has been week 6 or 5.

Then of course are the amenities at the school are their 2 20a circiuts in the gym to run the FMS and the AV so they can run on separate circuits. What about the pits you need 1 20a circuit per 4~6 teams and another for inspection, pit admin. If you don't have that then you need a generator and power distribution system which adds to the cost. In the PNW we did spend the money for two power distribution systems and we have a great partner in a rental company that gives us reduced rates for generators and fork lifts.

TL/DR; Selecting locations for district events is not easy with a number of things that have to be considered and all come together with the other locations as well. It is not an easy task and takes a lot of person power.

TDav540 19-10-2016 13:11

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Not sure what world you're living in, but every single Michigan event has about 40 teams when all is said and done. It's your choice to think a 24 team event is better than a 40 team event, but we (both your team and mine) got no extra matches at the 25-team Albany than we did at 40-team Columbus. Even more than that, once alliance selection got to the end, there was very little depth to pick a third robot. I personally like picking from quality teams to round out my alliance.

And yeah, the idea is to make smaller events and have more of them. That's how the district model works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year. Personally I believe there are teams that can afford the registration that includes two events but the travel cost only allows them to participate in one.

I don't see how your first sentence relates the two statements. I know that G3 got more plays for the cost, and I know that any team which attended one or even two regionals got more also. And I know the chance of going to Worlds for most teams in the state went WAY up when going to districts. Sure, the cost to get to worlds is higher. But that has been discussed endlessly and I'm not sure how the location of the district events makes much difference from that end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I do believe some of the holdbacks to having more events is the cost to GAFirst for fields and equipment and not to mention the limited number of volunteers they pull from.

If the state DOE ever got on board then the high school avenue may come to play but without their support I do not see it happening.

Uh yeah. Not to mention that we don't really need more events? Maybe a fifth (next year, I think), but otherwise we're fine.

The DOE on board would definitely help, but by no means is it a requirement. It just takes some teams working together with local partners to put an event on at the local HS.

kristinweiss 19-10-2016 13:26

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDav540 (Post 1612529)
Even more than that, once alliance selection got to the end, there was very little depth to pick a third robot. I personally like picking from quality teams to round out my alliance.

Going off of this, at the smaller events last year where there were only 24 or 25 teams total, almost every robot got picked for elimination, and the "worst" robots at the competition ended up on the top alliances and won events. Because of this, you had many teams get enough district points to make it to state even if they never moved during the competition. I personally would be in favor of Georgia having only 3 events total with around 40 teams each until we can do a better job of "filling up" 4 events. I would say that the ideal locations for events based on where teams are actually located would be somewhere inside the perimeter, somewhere in Roswell or Marietta, and somewhere near Macon.

BenDSterling 19-10-2016 13:36

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
We might be able to do a 5th qualifying event in a year or two, but it definitely won't be a smaller event. We aim to have around 30 teams per event (this isn't decided fully by us, FIRST has a big say in how many teams per event and how many events per district.

The main reason we don't have more events is cost. The events are EXPENSIVE to put on. They are even more expensive is we have overlapping events. Not only does it take a lot of money, but also man-power. Georgia is currently set up to NOT be able to handle overlapping events. We have purchased our AV system, out power distribution system, the field, and A LOT of other stuff. This substantially cuts down on cost. If we have overlapping events, we then have to rent a large amount of equipment to support the second event. Now I know what you are thinking, we did it last year with Albany and Dalton. Well there is a reason we are not trying it again this year. Those events were FAR too expensive and did not nearly have enough volunteers. So overlapping events is out of the picture (for as long as possible).

A 5th event is definitely possible in a year or two, once Georgia has more teams, but this event definitely won't have 24 teams attending. It will be much closer to 30.

Location wise, I would like to see events in the filling places:
- Marietta/Kenessaw
- Gainsville
- Columbus
- Inner-City
And the put state at the Georgia World Congress Center or Philips Arena (expensive but definitely doable). The reason for these locations is partially because of where teams are located and partly because of venues.

TDav540 19-10-2016 13:49

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenDSterling (Post 1612534)
Location wise, I would like to see events in the filling places:
- Marietta/Kenessaw
- Gainsville
- Columbus
- Inner-City
And the put state at the Georgia World Congress Center or Philips Arena. The reason for these locations is partially because of where teams are located and partly because of venues.

Phillips Arena would be awesome.

Not sure Columbus makes a lot of sense long term. There's only a couple teams down there, and it fills well because it's on the Interstate system. But I think it would be better to have one in Macon and another in Savannah/Statesboro. The teams in Southeast Georgia really get the short end of the stick, and having an event out there would not only really help growth, but also decrease the enormous travel costs those teams have.

So the breakdown would be:
- Marietta
- Gainesville
- Inner-City
- Macon/Clarkson/Perry
- Savannah/Statesboro
- DCMP: Athens or Atlanta

FrankJ 19-10-2016 15:21

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Disclosure: I don't represent GAF in any way. I don't even represent my team on this forum

We hosted Grits (Georgia's off season event) last year at our school. Along with a lot of help from GaF and our friends. We had enough pit room for 30-35 teams. 40 would have been squeeze. A long time NE district mentor/volunteer that attended told me that we could have hosted a district in the same space.

One of GAF's goals with working with colleges is FRC students are a natural feeder for the colleges. Benefits are for more tangible than space for the competition. Kennesaw college already provides time on their water jet. GaTech has helped in a lot of ways. Of course they did that way before districts. Albany tech has spawned a bunch of teams. I wouldn't be surprised to see more teams in the Columbus area as well. (Columbus is at a different location this year. Bouncy field is no more) Georgia's First's goal is to represent all of GA. Not just Atlanta Metro. Although it would be nice to place one district where the bulk of the teams are. (Phillips & GWCC both not a possibility price wise)

Current district registration; Gainesville 32-full, Dalton-26, Columbus-32-full, Albany-22. So for now 3-4 districts is about right. For those of you unfamiliar with Ga topography: Gainesville is practically north Atlanta. Dalton is 1 hour NW of Atlanta. Columbus is 2hr SW of Atlanta on the interstate adequate infrastructure. Albany is 3 hours south of Atlanta and smallish infrastructure wise. Other state possibilities are Augusta-home of Savannah River Plant & Augusta National Golf (3 hrs), Georgia Southern & Statesboro (3.5 hrs in tha middle of a swamp), Savannah (4 hours on the coast).

Billfred 19-10-2016 16:09

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)
I am going to make a statement here about what I perceive districts should be. The events should be smaller than what we currently do in GA. The events should be no more than 24 teams, is the concept of district smaller events with more of them? Look at Michigan, they hold them in High Schools and can do that due to the smaller size.

Hi, I attended the smallest official event in FRC last season: the FIRST North Carolina District - UNC Asheville Event. 24 teams, two of them from out-of-district. A quirk of it being in North Carolina is that our head referee was FRC Chief Referee Aidan Browne. I asked him what would've happened if one of those teams no-showed or was busted beyond repair and declined. His answer? Because there's nothing in the manual to address that special situation, "Alliance 1 would play with two robots."

Which, while exactly what the rules dictate, would've been the biggest load of horse manure for the #1 seed ever. They couldn't even capture, since that by rule calls for three robots. The reward for being the top seed at the event would almost certainly be a swift quarterfinal exit.

So yeah. 30-something is a healthy number.

MARS_James 19-10-2016 19:50

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DonShaw (Post 1612519)

We all heard more plays per dollar by going to district and I did not see that come about, for many teams the chance to qualify for Worlds is higher. I would like to see some other teams show there cost per play from last year.

Hello I represent a regional team (179) who would like to compare our cost to attend and event vs your teams (1261) cost to attend an event strictly in terms of the cost of the event not counting travel cost as FIRST/Whatever governing body has control over how much it costs us to go to an event but not how much it costs to get and stay there. That sounded much better in my head but moving on lets compare shall we!

Event 1: Palmetto Regional vs PCH District - Columbus Event
179 Cost: $5,000
1261 Cost: $5,000
179 Number of Matches: 15 (9 Qualifying + 7 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 16 (12 Qualifying + 4 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event:$333.34 ($555.56 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event:$312.50 ($416.67 per Guaranteed Match)

Event 2: Rocket City Regional vs PCH District - Albany Event
179 Cost: $4,000
1261 Cost: $0
179 Number of Matches: 16 (10 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 18 (12 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event: $250 ($400 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $0 ($0 per Guaranteed Match)

179 Total Cost For First 2 Events: $9,000. $290.33 Per Match. $500 Per Guaranteed Match
1261 Cost For First 2 Events: $5,000. $147.06 Per Match. $208.34 Per Guaranteed Match

So after our first two events this is how we compare cost analysis wise. This is why districts save teams money. Looking at what every team is guaranteed specifically regardless of robot quality you are at a greater than 50% discount from my team after our first two events.

But both our teams decided to do more than just 2 qualifying events so lets look at our third events to see our cost analysis there.

Event 3: South Florida Regional vs PCH District - Kennesaw Event
179 Cost: $4,000
1261 Cost: $1,000
179 Number of Matches: 18 (9 Qualifying + 9 Eliminations)
1261 Number of Matches: 19 (12 Qualifying + 7 Eliminations)
179 Cost Per Match at Event: $222.23 ($444.45 per Guaranteed Match)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $52.64 ($83.34 per Guaranteed Match)

So your third event costs 1/4th what mine did, and shows by being less than 1/4th of the cost per match because you get more matches.

Looking at the season after your third event the totals come to:
179 Total Cost For First 3 Events: $13,000. $265.31 Per Match. $464.29 Per Guaranteed Match
1261 Cost For First 3 Events: $6,000. $113.21 Per Match. $166.67 Per Guaranteed Match

So after all of our comparable events you are spending less than half of the amount of money. But to be far before we get to championships you did have one more event.

Event 4: Peachtree District State Championship
1261 Cost: $4,000
1261 Number of Matches: 18 (12 Qualifying + 6 Eliminations)
1261 Cost Per Match at Event: $222.23 ($333.34 per Guaranteed Match)

So lets compare the entire season leading up to Championship:

179
Total Events: 3
Total Cost: $13,000
Average Cost Per Event: $4,333.34
Average Cost Per Match: $265.31
Average Cost of Guaranteed Match: $464.29

1261
Total Events: 4
Total Cost: $10,000
Average Cost Per Event: $2.500
Average Cost Per Match: $140.85
Average Cost of Guaranteed Match: $208.34


So your team was able to attend more events, for less money, had more matches per event, and just for fun it appears that based on Distance and time from the location of your school to the events you only needed to stay over night for your first two events, and with those events being districts that is two nights in hotels total. My team also had to do an overnight travel for two of our events, but since we are regional team, and our distance was quite a bit further (1261 Travel Distance/Time: 172.5 Miles or 3 hours average distance. 179 Travel Distance/Time: 703 Miles or 11.5 hours average distance) we had to stay a total of 8 nights. So assuming that the cost of hotels wasn't drastically different our cost for travel was roughly 8 times greater per person.

I am sorry if this is coming off as an attack but I just don't think you realize how much of a great deal switching to a district is, and how much more effort a team not in a district has to put in to be able to compete at 3 events.

ttldomination 20-10-2016 18:30

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1612546)
Gainesville is practically north Atlanta.

Eh, not really.

Gainesville is approximately 1 hour north of Atlanta.
Dalton is approximately 1.5 hours north of Atlanta.

If we're getting technical here, I would define North Atlanta as the area formed between I85, I75, and I285.

Inner-Atlanta teams (4468, 1648, etc.) can probably speak more to this, but depending on where you live, I would consider Gainesville a travel event.

- Sunny G.

kristinweiss 20-10-2016 18:54

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 1612770)
Inner-Atlanta teams (4468, 1648, etc.) can probably speak more to this, but depending on where you live, I would consider Gainesville a travel event.

One of the reasons that our team opted not to load in Friday night for GRITS is because Gainesville is easily over a two hour drive in traffic, and to load in on Friday we would have to leave in the middle of rush hour traffic. I would not be suprised if our team opts to get hotel rooms for the Gainesville district event considering it is not necessarily worth making the long drive in each direction every day, especially considering competitions are such long days.

FrankJ 20-10-2016 21:21

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 1612770)
Eh, not really.

Gainesville is approximately 1 hour north of Atlanta.
Dalton is approximately 1.5 hours north of Atlanta.

If we're getting technical here, I would define North Atlanta as the area formed between I85, I75, and I285..

When I was of FRC age, I would have agreed with you. But then I285 wasn't a circle, 400 & 985 didn't exist and I-75 had its temporary end in Cobb county, making both Gainesville & Dalton a considerably longer drive. :] For a lot of the North Atlanta teams, Gainesville is about as close as a rush hour commute to central Atlanta. But now Gainesville is just outside of what passes for the Metro area.

I am not really arguing Kristen's point that it would be nice to locate at least one District in the epicenter of teams. And yes if you are an ITP (inside the perimeter) Gainesville is either a long commute or a travel district.

TDav540 20-10-2016 22:31

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1612788)
When I was of FRC age, I would have agreed with you. But then I285 wasn't a circle, 400 & 985 didn't exist and I-75 had its temporary end in Cobb county, making both Gainesville & Dalton a considerably longer drive. :] For a lot of the North Atlanta teams, Gainesville is about as close as a rush hour commute to central Atlanta. But now Gainesville is just outside of what passes for the Metro area.

I am not really arguing Kristen's point that it would be nice to locate at least one District in the epicenter of teams. And yes if you are an ITP (inside the perimeter) Gainesville is either a long commute or a travel district.

As someone who drives two hours basically every weekend between Atlanta and Anderson, SC, I promise you that Gainesville is not "just outside the Metro area". And North Atlanta isn't Marietta, Alpharetta, Roswell, etc. It's North Atlanta. Inside the perimeter. A Midtown Atlanta event would be closer to those teams than a Gainesville event by about 20 minutes, pretty much regardless of traffic.

Dalton has no relevance in the Metro Atlanta discussion. It is not a home event for any team close to Atlanta (that's not in Cobb County).

FrankJ 21-10-2016 07:47

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
OK I will concede that the city of Atlanta is actually a small but important part of metro Atlanta. (I grew up inside to the city limits for what it is worth) It doesn't even make it to the perimeter except on the NW side. Sandy Springs fought a long battle not to be in Atlanta. But if you look at Kristen's map, Most of the "Atlanta teams" are outside the city limits. I will even concede that most teams will consider Gainesville a travel event.

TDav540 21-10-2016 08:05

Re: Location of Georgia District Events
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1612815)
But if you look at Kristen's map, Most of the "Atlanta teams" are outside the city limits. I will even concede that most teams will consider Gainesville a travel event.

"Atlanta teams" might include everyone in the Metro, but everyone inside the city limits generally has a worse time getting in and out of the Metro. A team in Suwanee or nearby has a commutable 40 minute travel to Riverside. When coming from the city, there's a decent chance that your hour quickly turns into an hour and a half.

Regardless, I agree with you. Anyone who isn't near or on I-85 in the North Suburbs is probably not going to commute on Sunday morning.

Frankly, any event (or two) in North Suburbs or in the city would suffice as a local event for all "Atlanta teams".


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