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SpaceBiz 23-10-2016 11:53

Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
One of the complaints I get from non-first people and sometimes rookies when they watch events is the lack of things happening in between matches. There is normally just music playing, and an occasional FIRST parody or ad here and there, the game animation at some point, and that's it. The music selection was sooo much better this year (at least at CHS events), but it seems like there are more interesting things events could be doing during breaks.

I know some other threads have briefly touched on this, but I wanted to have a discussion about what kinds of things people want to see inbetween matches for the 2017 season and beyond. Some Ideas that have been previously mentioned include...

-Chairman's videos of more than just the team that wins.
-Reveal vids
-Other types of team produced media
-Interesting matches from current seasons or others.

I don't have a strong opinion about what should be played inbetween matches, but I think that by showing more team produced videos at events, teams will be more likely to produce their own media, increasing the quantity of good team produced media, and will in turn help FIRST "make it loud".

Jay O'Donnell 23-10-2016 11:55

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
The match analysis desk that we've seen on Einstein, IRI and Chezy Champs is definitely the way to go.

Bkeeneykid 23-10-2016 12:07

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell (Post 1613076)
The match analysis desk that we've seen on Einstein, IRI and Chezy Champs is definitely the way to go.

That's great, but there's only so many groups to choose from. Even if you combine FUN, F4, Gamesense and probably another podcast I'm missing, you still don't have nearly the amount of people for all of the events. I think the IRI stream was done really well, but compare that to the champs stream, I think you can see a big difference. The champs stream wasn't really on top of when match started and stopped, sometimes going into a match after it's already started and sometimes staying there for much longer than necessary. While I do think that this is the best option, I'm not sure it's feasible for every event. We might be able to get a "Stream Host" volunteer role for some events, but I sincerely doubt many will want that position.

Caleb Sykes 23-10-2016 12:10

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
The problem with many intermission events is that they are of a fixed length, while the time between matches is variable. Mascot dances, videos, judge swag contests, etc... are all cool, but they either leave extra downtime before the next match starts, or hold up the next match until they are finished.

Doing more short videos might help, but I agree that having an analysis desk or live interviewer is the best, because they can deal with the variable intermissions better than other fillers.

Lil' Lavery 23-10-2016 13:18

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Not many high school football games have analysis desks to handle downtime between plays. While having something like that at every event would be ideal, I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

ttnn58 23-10-2016 14:22

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
team 3075 made for the israel regional last year a "postcard" video for each team (each video was 1 minute~) and it contained some basic information, two student from the team talking a little about their over-all experience, and some team media, like robot reavel video or chairmens...
they played a video of one of teams on the big screen above the field before a match this team had. it was kinda nice, but they only played the in the very end of the regional....
this is all the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1B8...O-L0Z7-ghVrqT-
*the videos are in hebrew

SpaceBiz 23-10-2016 14:52

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes (Post 1613079)
The problem with many intermission events is that they are of a fixed length, while the time between matches is variable. Mascot dances, videos, judge swag contests, etc... are all cool, but they either leave extra downtime before the next match starts, or hold up the next match until they are finished.

Doing more short videos might help, but I agree that having an analysis desk or live interviewer is the best, because they can deal with the variable intermissions better than other fillers.

I think a short video and live interviewer combo could solve the variable intermissions problem at events where you can't do an analysis desk.

Analysis desks might be the ultimate solution, but I don't think they can be implemented on a large scale for 2017 regular season events. I would love to see them at district champs and maybe a few regionals though.

MARS_James 23-10-2016 14:53

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Sometimes I feel like I am getting old on this site. The very first regional I competed at was the 2007 Florida Regional there was 51 Teams, playing 8 matches, making for 68 matches total. Fast forward to the same event in 2016, 63 teams, playing 9 matches, for 95 matches total. For those who don't get why I am bringing this up, the events took place over the same course of time so there was 40% more matches, squeezed in. The down time between matches in old first events were crazy considering how simple the field reset is by today's standards.

But now to stop feeling old, I like the idea of segments where there is analysis in between matches and Florida is lucky enough that we have the Roboshow already established handling the Orlando Regional so it wouldn't be to much of a stretch to cover both Florida events.

One thing that I have always said FIRST should do is have just a single elimination match between the two teams that were eliminated in the semifinals to crown a third place team, they don't need medals or even trophies (though they would be appreciated). It gives something going on during that required field break, it allows for wild cards to continue past the just the finalists, and it makes for a good feeling to get one more match at an event.

Foster 23-10-2016 15:11

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Add me to the list of people that would want to see Chairman's videos. If I never heard Cotton Eye Joe again, but instead got to watch 10-15 teams videos I'd be happy.

There are teams that work just as hard if not harder on their community events, I'd love to see them showcased

Awards Give Awards during the longer breaks. Duel did that this weekend. In that looooong lull after alliance selection, they gave away a number of awards. So there was always something to watch on the field while teams were setting up for eliminations.

Bkeeneykid 23-10-2016 15:14

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foster (Post 1613099)
Add me to the list of people that would want to see Chairman's videos. If I never heard Cotton Eye Joe again, but instead got to watch 10-15 teams videos I'd be happy.

There are teams that work just as hard if not harder on their community events, I'd love to see them showcased

Awards Give Awards during the longer breaks. Duel did that this weekend. In that looooong lull after alliance selection, they gave away a number of awards. So there was always something to watch on the field while teams were setting up for eliminations.

The problem with giving awards during breaks is a lot of teams work on their robot during the breaks. If everyone but the scouters are not there to accept the award, I feel like most of the team would feel left out. There's so many things that most of the team needs to do during an event, having them go back and forth from the stands to wherever they need to get things done at would be a pain.

EricH 23-10-2016 18:35

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I agree that there's a bit of a break between matches. But... there's ALWAYS activity.

For those that aren't aware, each event has a cycle time. That is the time it takes to run a match, ideally. A general target is in the 6-8 minute timeframe, unless it's a small event or a particularly rough field setup, when 10 minutes is more common, or a particularly fast field setup, when 5 minutes could be achieved (maybe).

For a 7-minute cycle time:
2:15 (or thereabouts) to run the match
0:15 to double-check scores and if there are issues that need discussion
Green Field (cue reset for the next match)
4:00 to reset the field and begin team introductions (the most variable part--this is also the "hey, why isn't my robot connecting" part--but this is where the "extra" time comes from in a longer schedule)
0:30 to finish team introductions, check for green field status (ready to play), and count 3-2-1-GO!

Oh, yeah, and about 30 seconds of that 4-minute block of time is score announcing, and exactly when it happens is variable based on any discussions that need to happen.

So, for all practical purposes, you're talking about filling 3 minutes of that cycle time with something else. While that isn't a bad idea, there are two primary restrictions on what you can do. The first is that being on the field itself is going to be a really bad idea (it's already crowded with 12 teams, 8-10 field reset, and a couple of refs). The second is that there's all that motion going on, with communications--that's a distraction, and all that. (And there's the time factor.)


There's a few options here, but I'd suspect that having some 1-minute analysis soundbites would be a cool idea. Maybe not video, but basically you get 2-3 people at the event who have some idea of what they're doing and have them do some commentary on stats, strategies, teams, stuff like that, with a 1-minute time limit. Some of it could be pre-done (even before the event, or on practice day) for the first set of matches, and then done over about an hour at a time for recording sessions.

The big kicker is the elims, with the mandatory 6-minute field timeout for teams in back-to-back matches. That's when you maybe slide some awards or Chairman's videos in.

jreneew2 23-10-2016 19:16

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I don't know much about how strict an official FIRST event is run, but do you need approval for something like this? I'm sure people would be willing to volunteer to play some sort of analyst role in between matches. The only problem is people saying they know the game in and out and specific teams when they actually don't.

What I'm trying to say is, if FIRST actively promoted the position, maybe more people would study the game and try to fill the position.

EricH 23-10-2016 19:36

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jreneew2 (Post 1613132)
I don't know much about how strict an official FIRST event is run, but do you need approval for something like this? I'm sure people would be willing to volunteer to play some sort of analyst role in between matches. The only problem is people saying they know the game in and out and specific teams when they actually don't.

What I'm trying to say is, if FIRST actively promoted the position, maybe more people would study the game and try to fill the position.

I'm sure approval would be needed. (I've heard what happens if approval doesn't happen.)

But I would also suspect that the best move would be to do a pilot, with the existing groups at their "home" event areas. If it enhances the experience, then it's time to train others to do it--see also, offseason events--and roll it out as an option at all events (similar to early pit setup this last year--events could opt NOT to have it).

AlexanderLuke 23-10-2016 19:42

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Here is something relevant, but not really something easily possible to put on at official events:

Today while issues with one of the robots was getting fixed before Finals Match 2 at Capital City Classic, the event staff got two members of the audience to come on the field and attempt to throw a boulder into the high goal on the other side of the field.

Even the FTA crews and some volunteers chimed in on getting a shot up. Someone actually made the shot from the neutral zone, amidst the six robots that were already set up there.

EDIT: After they determined that the robot's problem could not be solved in time, one the the referees even started to juggle on the field as that robot was getting pulled off the field.

Creative solutions.

Foster 23-10-2016 21:33

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1613100)
The problem with giving awards during breaks is a lot of teams work on their robot during the breaks. If everyone but the scouters are not there to accept the award, I feel like most of the team would feel left out. There's so many things that most of the team needs to do during an event, having them go back and forth from the stands to wherever they need to get things done at would be a pain.

My experience is there is a pit crew wrenching on the robot. There is a lone, sometimes two, programmers being yelled at by the four person drive team and the pit crew. So lots of people left over to accept awards. Not thinking Chairman, but maybe Safety, controls, website, spirit, GP, build, design, etc.

Poll your team. "How upset would you be missing a design award while you are elbow deep in fixing the robot to win the next match."

Report back what they say

TV sports, dead air is deadly, lets fill it.

Bkeeneykid 23-10-2016 21:43

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foster (Post 1613154)
My experience is there is a pit crew wrenching on the robot. There is a lone, sometimes two, programmers being yelled at by the four person drive team and the pit crew. So lots of people left over to accept awards. Not thinking Chairman, but maybe Safety, controls, website, spirit, GP, build, design, etc.

Poll your team. "How upset would you be missing a design award while you are elbow deep in fixing the robot to win the next match."

Report back what they say

TV sports, dead air is deadly, lets fill it.

I would love to poll my team and tell you, but my guess is the results may be slightly skewed. We never even compete for awards, never the less have we gotten one. Check out TBA, never a single award. How I wish I could convince my team...

I think it'll depend on the team. In the spirit of GP and the general idea of FIRST involving everyone, I doubt this could become officially sanctioned.

EricH 23-10-2016 22:12

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1613156)
I think it'll depend on the team. In the spirit of GP and the general idea of FIRST involving everyone, I doubt this could become officially sanctioned.

Wanna bet? (Don't, you'll lose.)

Seems like back in the mid-late 2000s, FIRST did give awards between matches of elims, on Einstein. Now, they did tend to go over, but I think that was because the VIPs giving out the awards tended to give longer-than-planned speeches.

Now, that being said, for that particular setup, they had 2 reps per team. I think that can be brought to the regional level, IF someone wanted to go that route.

GeeTwo 23-10-2016 22:38

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Hasn't been much of a problem at Bayou. When our announcer and emcee both run out of things to say, they put on line dance music. When they decide to put on the video loop with the sponsors in spheres instead of music, someone brings out an enormous ball or six and we start batting it around the stands.

Hmmm... maybe we'll bring our air cannon this year. As long as it has an arduino controlling it, it can't look like a second competition robot to the canonical "astute observer". (JK)

Whatever 24-10-2016 11:36

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell (Post 1613076)
The match analysis desk that we've seen on Einstein

In fairness, a lot of people were filling time between matches on Einstein doing aeronautical experiments.

At the 10k regional they filled the time between matches with the exciting game of seeing if the field reset personnel could balance 6 boulders on the mid line at once. I don't think that was planned though.

My daughter's experience running the scout team this year was there really wasn't any down time between matches. It was a sprint to keep up with collecting data from the last match and getting ready for the next match.

Roger 24-10-2016 11:55

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatever
At the 10k regional they filled the time between matches with the exciting game of seeing if the field reset personnel could balance 6 boulders on the mid line at once. I don't think that was planned though.

I usually start a game of hot potato with a boulder in the long late afternoon pauses, that time when the field crew begin to slow down. It starts with one or two, and eventually everyone joins in. If I get the Refs you know we needed the stretch break. Hopefully the field is ready before it turns into dodgeball and ends in tears. :ahh:

One long break at Mainely Spirit this year I managed to get the entire audience doing the wave without saying a word.

C.Lesco 24-10-2016 12:16

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I would absolutely love to see this. Especially having someone interviewing the drivers and such. Showing videos would be more rewarding to only the people who had time/resources to make the video whereas everyone's team could cheer when their drive team is on the bigscreen

Tyler Olds 24-10-2016 12:38

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1613078)
I think the IRI stream was done really well, but compare that to the champs stream, I think you can see a big difference. The champs stream wasn't really on top of when match started and stopped, sometimes going into a match after it's already started and sometimes staying there for much longer than necessary.

So to add a little bit of input from the last two year at IRI. This has a lot to do with the IRI Live desk (Collin and Nick/Danny) and myself (emcee) coordinating this setup. The first year I would wait for the IRI Live people to get done and it was great for those watching the event via webstream, but was a bit daunting for those there in person who had to awkwardly wait with no audio even when all robots were connected and we were ready to start.

This past IRI things were positioned where there was a communication channel that would give the wrap it up part to Collin and Nick when I was ready to start. This kept things moving smoothly with minimal interruptions/overlaps on this. On a championship level this could be coordinated as well but that is up to FIRST where at IRI it was up to the planning committee.

BMiller2559 24-10-2016 12:48

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I agree, although expensive and difficult to coordinate some "Behind the Line" videos of the last match would be very entertaining and could even give the people in the stands a feel for the driver's view of the field and what that little robot looks like 50 feet away behind two rows of obstacles. Of course if it came with sound it might be problematic for some of the more intense "adult" drive coaches.

Chris is me 24-10-2016 13:28

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1613087)
Not many high school football games have analysis desks to handle downtime between plays. While having something like that at every event would be ideal, I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

Let's be fair though, six to seven minute gaps aren't present between every play in high school football, and each play isn't a new set of players on both sides. There's a lot of reasons this would be more appropriate for FRC than football.

I agree that it's not something we can make into an expectation or requirement right away, but I think a simplified version of the Chezy Champs style analysis isn't out of the realm of possibility for many events. Pictures of the six robots coming up onto the screen, along with each team's record and 30 seconds - 1 minute of very basic analysis. Here's a simple example:

"It looks like the red alliance this match has 2 hanging robots! But the blue alliance as a whole is more consistent on breaching, and auton looks to be a tossup. Robot A is currently a top ranked team, so they need to win to hold their position, but Robot B has the potential to jump them in the rankings with a win here. How will this play out? Let's meet our teams."

30 seconds of analysis all possible by looking at the robots and reading the rankings. This would require additional volunteer commitment (either a dedicated analyst to collect photos and take notes, or an additional Game Announcer volunteer), but it would certainly help. Plus this idea wouldn't physically interact with the field at all, which is already quite congested.

The script for how an FRC match cycle goes in terms of the audience hasn't been significantly changed in well over ten years. I don't think it's unreasonable to brainstorm alternatives while minding the many constraints.

Whatever 24-10-2016 14:58

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1613254)
Let's be fair though, six to seven minute gaps aren't present between every play in high school football, and each play isn't a new set of players on both sides. There's a lot of reasons this would be more appropriate for FRC than football.

I agree that it's not something we can make into an expectation or requirement right away, but I think a simplified version of the Chezy Champs style analysis isn't out of the realm of possibility for many events. Pictures of the six robots coming up onto the screen, along with each team's record and 30 seconds - 1 minute of very basic analysis. Here's a simple example:

"It looks like the red alliance this match has 2 hanging robots! But the blue alliance as a whole is more consistent on breaching, and auton looks to be a tossup. Robot A is currently a top ranked team, so they need to win to hold their position, but Robot B has the potential to jump them in the rankings with a win here. How will this play out? Let's meet our teams."

30 seconds of analysis all possible by looking at the robots and reading the rankings. This would require additional volunteer commitment (either a dedicated analyst to collect photos and take notes, or an additional Game Announcer volunteer), but it would certainly help. Plus this idea wouldn't physically interact with the field at all, which is already quite congested.

The script for how an FRC match cycle goes in terms of the audience hasn't been significantly changed in well over ten years. I don't think it's unreasonable to brainstorm alternatives while minding the many constraints.

Think about how much time and energy teams put into scouting. You just suggested the people running the tournament do at least that much work to supply a snippet of talk between matches. Teams at IRI/Cheesy have a track record so you can talk a bit about them. Teams at a week 1 regional are more or less unknowns.

Andrew_L 24-10-2016 15:45

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Some thoughts in bullet points because too busy to actually write paragraphs:

- Fillers with videos / play by play analysis / audience interaction are cool during elims. They help keep the energy up when the downtime is more expected.

- You really don't need anything between matches in quals. People are going over scouting data, taking a break from the match, going to the bathroom, getting lunch, etc. Even if there's a long downtime, people will entertain themselves. Events work just fine when you don't try and squeeze anything in - just let things be.

- Dance songs are the reason people still call robotics competitions "dork fests" as if we were back in a 1980's high school drama show. They make us look lame. Just don't.

TDav540 24-10-2016 15:54

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_L (Post 1613298)
Some thoughts in bullet points because too busy to actually write paragraphs:

- Fillers with videos / play by play analysis / audience interaction are cool during elims. They help keep the energy up when the downtime is more expected.

- You really don't need anything between matches in quals. People are going over scouting data, taking a break from the match, going to the bathroom, getting lunch, etc. Even if there's a long downtime, people will entertain themselves. Events work just fine when you don't try and squeeze anything in - just let things be.

One thing we tried at a recent competition (GRITS) was very brief field-side interviews with mentors and students between matches, starting immediately after the score was announced. While the implementation wasn't the best (spontaneous idea, music wasn't always relatively quiet to allow for the audience to hear clearly), I think the idea is a solid filler every hour or two.

But mostly let things be. There's enough chaos with scouting as it is.

Lil' Lavery 24-10-2016 16:08

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1613254)
Let's be fair though, six to seven minute gaps aren't present between every play in high school football, and each play isn't a new set of players on both sides. There's a lot of reasons this would be more appropriate for FRC than football.

Football plays also don't last 120-135 seconds each. Typically only a few seconds. In fact, many people have seen the article that cites there's only about 11 minutes of actual football being played during a 3+hour football game broadcast.

But this isn't so much about the applicability of the analysis booth as the realistic expectation. While I think there's a definite expectation of better broadcast and analysis at premiere events (basically events that are the equivalent of nationally broadcast high school competitions), most FRC events would fall along the spectrum of local high school athletics. Nobody really expects a full broadcast team or replay booth for a high school football game.

Chris is me 24-10-2016 16:11

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatever (Post 1613278)
Think about how much time and energy teams put into scouting. You just suggested the people running the tournament do at least that much work to supply a snippet of talk between matches. Teams at IRI/Cheesy have a track record so you can talk a bit about them. Teams at a week 1 regional are more or less unknowns.

I definitely didn't suggest that at all! From the post you quoted:

Quote:

30 seconds of analysis all possible by looking at the robots and reading the rankings.
Also in that post was an example of the kind of depth of analysis I was talking about. Let's look at it again. The provided example blurb would be:

- Mentioning physical features of the robots present (you just look at them)
- Checking the percentage of matches the blue alliance robots have breached in (collected by FMS, so automatically supplied)
- Checking the auton averages for the two alliances (this is in the rankings)
- Looking at the places of the robots in the rankings

You can gather plenty of data and insight from a combination of looking at the robots, looking at data the FMS could just spit out for you, and some minor notes / memory / notable events. It isn't data strong enough to make a rigorous pick list with, but it doesn't have to be at all. It just has to be vaguely accurate and worth talking about, which isn't hard to do. I expect other than software this would require about 1 additional volunteer per event, which isn't trivial but isn't impossible either.

SpaceBiz 25-10-2016 09:51

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1613313)
I definitely didn't suggest that at all! From the post you quoted:



Also in that post was an example of the kind of depth of analysis I was talking about. Let's look at it again. The provided example blurb would be:

- Mentioning physical features of the robots present (you just look at them)
- Checking the percentage of matches the blue alliance robots have breached in (collected by FMS, so automatically supplied)
- Checking the auton averages for the two alliances (this is in the rankings)
- Looking at the places of the robots in the rankings

You can gather plenty of data and insight from a combination of looking at the robots, looking at data the FMS could just spit out for you, and some minor notes / memory / notable events. It isn't data strong enough to make a rigorous pick list with, but it doesn't have to be at all. It just has to be vaguely accurate and worth talking about, which isn't hard to do. I expect other than software this would require about 1 additional volunteer per event, which isn't trivial but isn't impossible either.

So If Chris is right and it only takes one extra volunteer per event to do something like he is talking about, can some of the people who think it is not worth changing the current event cycle explain why?

I know making more software is not really easy, but if having this extra announcing is only optional for event organizers, what are some other disadvantages this? I don't see how more noise over the speaker for an extra minute can make scouting harder, because scouts can just ignore it.

ratdude747 25-10-2016 21:39

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBiz (Post 1613426)
So If Chris is right and it only takes one extra volunteer per event to do something like he is talking about, can some of the people who think it is not worth changing the current event cycle explain why?

I know making more software is not really easy, but if having this extra announcing is only optional for event organizers, what are some other disadvantages this? I don't see how more noise over the speaker for an extra minute can make scouting harder, because scouts can just ignore it.

I can think of a few things:

-Liabilities: Having such a table would be one more person to accidentally say something that would not be in the best interests of FIRST. A hot mic is a powerful tool that can be abused. Not to say such would be likely but I could foresee a well intended comment offending a team or coming off the wrong way, and while most would laugh it off, it could be seen as a risk.

-Perceived bias: This is sorta the same thing as above, but I'll mention it anyway. I could see a team not doing so well not get as much mention in said commentary, and then try to claim that the commentator was "biased" and deliberately didn't give them much mention. If said team nearly missed playoffs (or got picked somewhat low), now they could try to claim discrimination. While such probably wouldn't work as a civil suit, it could become a PR nightmare, and most organizations wish to avoid the risk of such.

-Nothing to say: Let's be honest, many events (and even some fields at champs) don't have all good matches with positive commentary to be made. IRI/Einstein playoffs are never dull, which is IMHO why such commentary tables work there. But some early-week events... *crickets chirping*.

I do think that commentary tables at regionals/districts have potential as an idea, but I don't think it will be a slam dunk like IRI live has been. I don't mention these things because I think it's a bad idea, but because realistically there may be some roadblocks to getting such implemented in an official event.

CoachC 25-10-2016 23:21

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Id like to see Team build and motivational videos. The general public (IMHO) would like to see highlight reels from past or existing events. Ive sat in the stands as a fan and as a coach and thats the feedback ive heard over the years.

Jim (Coach C)
Team 5247
Red Devil Robotics

Donut 26-10-2016 01:31

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1613100)
The problem with giving awards during breaks is a lot of teams work on their robot during the breaks. If everyone but the scouters are not there to accept the award, I feel like most of the team would feel left out. There's so many things that most of the team needs to do during an event, having them go back and forth from the stands to wherever they need to get things done at would be a pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foster (Post 1613154)
My experience is there is a pit crew wrenching on the robot. There is a lone, sometimes two, programmers being yelled at by the four person drive team and the pit crew. So lots of people left over to accept awards. Not thinking Chairman, but maybe Safety, controls, website, spirit, GP, build, design, etc.

Poll your team. "How upset would you be missing a design award while you are elbow deep in fixing the robot to win the next match."

Report back what they say

TV sports, dead air is deadly, lets fill it.

I think the average team, with not a lot of members or that hardly ever wins an award, would have a huge issue with this. There are no current students or mentors on team 2662 who were around the last time this team won an award and I know the majority of them would want to be present for an award, having 8 - 10 people in the pit miss it would be a big deal. That would have been 30% - 60% of our team depending on which recent year you pick.

I'm in support of awards between matches during the Semifinals and beyond at Worlds as all of the pit crews and drive teams are out near the field at that point and could go out for an award, plus the majority of teams there won an award at their Regional already to qualify for Worlds. You could possibly extend this to in between Finals matches at a District or Regional competition where robots don't go back to the pit, but I'm not a fan of awards in the break up until Eliminations start or during the Quarterfinals when a large percentage of a team could be in the pit area which may be in a totally different section of the venue.

matthewdenny 26-10-2016 15:22

Let's assume there are 90 matches or so other than elimination matches.

Show the sponsors video about once an hour (15 times).

Give teams the option to compose a ~3 min video about their team. Maybe half do it. (25 segments)

Game animation every couple hours (10 segments)

Show the chairman awards winner or not (5-10 segments)

A couple videos about the history of first and previous games (5 segments)

Let teams spend Thurs & Friday having to heir media people going around interviewing teams demoing their robot on practice fields making at the event 3 min videos for Saturday. (5-10 videos)

Add in a few dance songs maybe 1 an hour (YMCA, Gangnam Style, etc) 15 segments.

That gets ~75 segments filled. I think if FIRST want events to be a sports atmosphere it needs to look at how stadiums keep the crowds interested during time outs and commercial breaks. You don't want to have multiple 5+ minute breaks every hour with people just sitting there waiting on the field.

Bkeeneykid 26-10-2016 15:27

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewdenny (Post 1613677)
Let's assume there are 90 matches or so other than elimination matches.

Show the sponsors video about once an hour (15 times).

Give teams the option to compose a ~3 min video about their team. Maybe half do it. (25 segments)

Game animation every couple hours (10 segments)

Show the chairman awards winner or not (5-10 segments)

A couple videos about the history of first and previous games (5 segments)

Let teams spend Thurs & Friday having to heir media people going around interviewing teams demoing their robot on practice fields making at the event 3 min videos for Saturday. (5-10 videos)

Add in a few dance songs maybe 1 an hour (YMCA, Gangnam Style, etc) 15 segments.

That gets ~75 segments filled. I think if FIRST want events to be a sports atmosphere it needs to look at how stadiums keep the crowds interested during time outs and commercial breaks. You don't want to have multiple 5+ minute breaks every hour with people just sitting there waiting on the field.

At least at the Greater Kansas City regional (not sure about other regionals), they showed many of the parody song contest songs between matches. We could count this for another 15 or so breaks (1 an hour), maybe even though in safety animations when theres extra time (since they're less than a minute). I think this could be a great idea.

MooreteP 26-10-2016 16:50

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Why this need to be constantly engaged with the screen stream?

What's wrong with a little downtime between matches?

Take some time to talk to the people in your proximity.
Take some time to go for a walk outside.
Take some time to to relax.

The match will start when the Robots are ready.
In the meantime.......sit back and enjoy the ride.

Siri 26-10-2016 17:29

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I think we're spending a lot of time concentrating on the 'normal' turnaround between matches, whereas most of the lulls I hear folks groan at during events are the...not normal ones.

We can debate the need to do anything with the standard few minutes of field reset, but having a logistical system in place to run team Chairman's videos during those great ten-minute or hour-and-a-half* field failures is nothing but a plus in my book. I also doubt the audience groaning at another dance song will complain much if you have to pause a video midway and finish it during a normal reset. It's not like you can't network or scout or what have you anyway, and it's much, much friendlier to the home audience.

On the crazy idea side, mid-event award ceremonies could include a few judges presenting the team's second trophy in the pits. Do it a few minutes early and offer to lead them to the high five line. I know this still doesn't work if you're desperately trying to fix something, though I feel like I'd love an award memory that involves the judges surprising us in the pits and the whole area clapping as we work away frantically.

Not sure I like the idea of ubiquitous "Behind the Lines" videos. I've definitely heard some coaches over the years (mostly students, actually) with some sailor mouths, and either way it has the potential to really embarrass folks, which can also cause preoccupation (I'm thinking mistakes rather than inappropriate behavior). I guess official and full alliance approval before and after would do it.

*yes, really.

frcguy 26-10-2016 18:02

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
A fun thing we did during a delay between F2 and F3 at Capital City Classic: Half-court shot contest. We called people down from the stands and they had to throw a boulder in the tower from halfway across the field. Seemed to really engage the crowd while we were working on getting a robot connected.

Ty Tremblay 26-10-2016 18:08

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1613700)
Why this need to be constantly engaged with the screen stream?

What's wrong with a little downtime between matches?

Take some time to talk to the people in your proximity.
Take some time to go for a walk outside.
Take some time to to relax.

The match will start when the Robots are ready.
In the meantime.......sit back and enjoy the ride.

But you can leave the stream whenever you want to. Those that don't want to should be entertained while they're watching, right?

Cothron Theiss 26-10-2016 18:13

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
I agree with a lot of the suggestions made in this thread. A few thoughts that I want to give in response to what I've seen so far.

While I would really enjoy in-depth strategy commentary in between matches, I can see that being a pretty difficult task to say something interesting, unbiased, concise, informative, and accurate for every event. Impossible? No. Just a pretty significant drain of resources that many events might not have.

Line dances and fun songs and mascot boxing matches are all well and good, but that should be happening a few times a day, not 10-15 times a day. There's a balance to be struck between silly and serious, and I understand that this can be difficult to achieve in every venue for every person. Another thing to consider is the difference in venue sizes/types. As more and more events move to smaller venues as more areas transition to Districts, we have a chance to mold how future events will be handled and what experience the audience will get.

There's a lot of great community-created content out there, especially the Chairman's videos. I've only ever seen a few Chairman's videos from other teams. I know I could find many of them if I went searching, but that's something I've never done. I feel like this should be the first resource events go to when they need to fill time.

Some have mentioned "Behind the Line" recordings, and others have mentioned the problems with this. I think that taking soundbites from behind the alliance wall, reviewing them to make sure they're appropriate, getting permission from the teams in the soundbite*, and planning to play those soundbites during the next year's competition might be a really attractive and not too difficult solution. The exact names for things might change, but the tension and passion never change.

Overall, I'm really enjoying this thread. This is a lot of discussion about how to improve the quality of events for everyone, from the seasoned veterans to the strangers who just stumbled into FIRST for the first time.


*Does FIRST already have explicit permission to use sound recordings of us? I know we agree to waivers so they can use pictures or videos with us in them. Does that include sound recordings? Could that include recordings?

EricH 26-10-2016 21:33

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1613714)
But you can leave the stream whenever you want to. Those that don't want to should be entertained while they're watching, right?

If they aren't entertained, why are they watching? [/:rolleyes:]

Let's put it this way: There are two sets of people that are affected by the breaks in the action: Live audience, and stream audience.

The live audience can talk to each other, move around, etc. They can also watch the reset action on the field pretty easily and figure out that they need to get back to their seats/stands. I think this is what the OP was mainly referencing, no?

The stream audience often doesn't have the field view, as the stream tends to be whatever is shown on the big screen (sponsors, etc.) and the big screen isn't necessary for the live audience between (or during) matches--better for MCs and awards. But, it's there. And the stream audience tends to not have the "talk to your neighbor" option.

How to reconcile the two...


OH! I got it!

I hereby challenge AndyMark, VEX, WCP, CTRE, REV, and all the other companies that produce FIRST specific parts (or heavily used ones) to produce...

A COMMERCIAL! That's right folks, we can be like every other sport out there, and fill in some of those "dead spots" with commercials! And with those companies being the way they are... Well, I'm willing to bet that they'll come up with something worth watching the Super Bowl of Smarts for!


Spoiler for The Fine Print:
First off, I'm not entirely serious. Second, I would probably actually watch some of those--I remember some quite hilarious VEX trailers about the time the VEX kit first came out. And third...You got a 2-minute time limit, make it count.

Rangel(kf7fdb) 27-10-2016 17:04

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Something that is fairly simple to put together could also be a video package for each event showing matches of the event from previous years. If an event is new, maybe just have video from the closest events or just have commercials only. It would be fairly entertaining to newer participants and nostalgic for older ones. Also incredibly easy to implement for as early as this year.

pmcoburn 27-10-2016 18:12

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1613700)
Why this need to be constantly engaged with the screen stream?

What's wrong with a little downtime between matches?

Take some time to talk to the people in your proximity.
Take some time to go for a walk outside.
Take some time to to relax.

The match will start when the Robots are ready.
In the meantime.......sit back and enjoy the ride.

THIS.

Jonny_Jee 27-10-2016 20:42

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderLuke (Post 1613135)
Here is something relevant, but not really something easily possible to put on at official events:

EDIT: After they determined that the robot's problem could not be solved in time, one the the referees even started to juggle on the field as that robot was getting pulled off the field.

Creative solutions.

Glad to hear people got a kick out of this. I've already started training for field delays at Sac regional 2017:D

Bob Steele 27-10-2016 22:46

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Something simple would be a video replay of the previous match.. That takes up most of the time between matches.... It would need a dedicated individual who could go back and make the replay.... technically it could be done but would require someone doing it. Of course it COULD NOT be used by the officials for scoring. If you watch sporting events... much of the deadtime shows highlights or different angles.

Many matches go by very quickly and many would be fun to watch again. Some not so much...

Old game videos from older games could also be played.... nostalgia

highlights of other regionals.... etc etc.

There is quite a bit out there if you look

Siri 27-10-2016 23:02

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
We're talking a lot about videos that would actually need to be made for this purpose (as opposed to Chairman's or something). I wonder if there's a niche for a specific Promotional Media videos award. Like the safety animation, etc, but for some scope of highlight reels, flashback clips, whathaveyou. Not really in order to fill the extra dance breaks, but with that benefit, particularly for the good of external stream viewers. I really feel viewer-friendliness online is potentially the biggest impact here, though hopefully attendees would like adding Chairman's and other team creations to their event experience.

itsjustjon 28-10-2016 00:22

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1613924)
We're talking a lot about videos that would actually need to be made for this purpose (as opposed to Chairman's or something). I wonder if there's a niche for a specific Promotional Media videos award. Like the safety animation, etc, but for some scope of highlight reels, flashback clips, whathaveyou. Not really in order to fill the extra dance breaks, but with that benefit, particularly for the good of external stream viewers. I really feel viewer-friendliness online is potentially the biggest impact here, though hopefully attendees would like adding Chairman's and other team creations to their event experience.

There's totally a niche for this type of stuff!

Our team, including many others, have been creating highlight reels which could be used to pump up crowds and summarize past years of a regional/district event.

That being said, what if we minimized the breaks rather than accommodated them :rolleyes:

Cothron Theiss 28-10-2016 00:28

Re: Utilizing breaks between matches.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by itsjustjon (Post 1613949)
That being said, what if we minimized the breaks rather than accommodated them :rolleyes:

There's really not much that can be done regarding that. The controls systems will continue to be iterated and improve, lessening the amount of field delays, but for instances like field faults or other issues, they can't really do anything. And frankly, I'm fine with a more complex and longer field reset every year or so if it means we keep getting complex, challenging games.


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