Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Hello everyone,

Firstly, I apologize in advance if this post is in the incorrect sub-forum. I felt it was the most appropriate to post my question in.

So, has anyone had any luck in asking or contacting a company in regards to donating a 3D printer to the their team?

I'm trying to obtain a 3D printer for my team, before the start of the 2017 FRC season - so I thought I would attempt alternative, more direct route.

Thank you so much!

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

You might try contacting FormLabs, I've heard some good things about them :)

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

We had one of the ecocycles from the FIRST Choice grant a couple years ago. It was an ok printer but a bit limited.

We are now the proud owners of a Fusion3 F400-S. They are fairly local and gave us a bit of a discount on it and saved us shipping costs because we could pick it up. Their support is simply phenomenal and the printer is proving to be valuable so far.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Brook Drumm from Printrbot donated 4 printers to our team during the summer after we sent out a request email to several companies.
He mentioned it on the Printrbot twitter in August and invited other teams to send requests.
https://twitter.com/printrbot/status/760919047030439936

You might have better luck with local companies, there are several start-ups producing decent quality printer all over the world. The hardest part is finding them. (and an appropriate contact email address)

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

A SLA printer probably isn't the best option for robotics applications (in our "robots"). FDM/FFF is the way to go 99.9% of the time (SLS being the .1%) if you intend to create functional parts in a reasonable amount of time with decent strength and low operating costs.

https://all3dp.com/types-of-3d-print...ogy-explained/

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

So there are good printers out there less than $400.
Monoprice has there MakerSelect printer (it is a rebranded Wanhao I3) that I can recommend.

When choosing a printer avoid:
1. Proprietary filament cartridges
2. Proprietary and closed source software/hardware

Get a printer with:
1. Heated bed
2. All metal hot end if you want to do plastics like Nylon
3. Enclosed build space is nice
4. Wide parts availability

Also, there are some really good kits out there that your students can build as a learning project.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

3dhubs is a really awesome resource if your team doesn't have the funds to warrant buying a 3d printer. In reality you probably won't print that many items for the robot and with 3dhubs you can save a ton of money.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Actually, SLA printers produce very strong and accurate parts (I have a sample from formlabs that is extremely accurate and has survived multiple stress tests) :ahh:

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

But how long did it take to print, how much post processing was required, and how much did the resin cost? 1 liter of resin costs over $150.
In the long term, you also have to factor in the cost of the resin trays ($60 each) which degrade faster than normal print surfaces.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Do you know of any specific teams that use SLS? I know 3824 had a few parts made on an ARCAM machine via EBM for their 2013 bot. It might be interesting to find all the teams that use methods of additive manufacturing other than FDM.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

I wouldn't be sure of this. Last couple years 125's bots had a fair number of 3d printed components and not just the usual spacers. The Behind the Design book has a feature on the 2015 power transmission blocks for the elevator and the entire leading edge of the robot in 2016 was 3d printed.

Also yes, spacers, spacers galore and sensor mounts... Idk, seemed like a lot of random small parts that got printed the least 2 years.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Yep. Troy, you might want to check the '05 robot for white sprockets.

Back in '05 330 managed to get a sponsorship from a local company that did 3D printing (SLS/SLA). Had a few small parts--and some large parts--in a run or two. The mecanum wheels didn't make it to the competition robot, but we did have a demo unit in the pit. On the other hand, there was a sprocket or two that were mounted on jackshafts to connect encoders to arms/drives(?).

I don't think they've had SLS parts since, though.

I think the best way to go with SLS is if you've got a sponsor who can put your parts in the empty space in a normal run (if there is any).

And I know there's a team that 3D-printed just about their entire robot, can't remember who, though.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

I'd say you're thinking of the team I mentioned, 3824. They've always printed pretty significant portions of their robots, including structural and frame components on a Fortus 900 printer. For 2014 and 2015, they printed large portions of their robot in a few large pieces on ORNL's BAAM. Their 2015 bot was featured in Behind the Designs. It's a really good read. This year, they went with pultruded fiberglass as their structural material after they did some prototyping with a printed chassis and decided Stronghold was too rough for an all-printed robot. However, their drive sprockets were printed v-belt pulleys, which I think is one of the most interesting ways to do power transmission in FRC.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

I have a formlabs printer in my classroom. It makes a lovely paperweight. Out of 60 prints, I had 3 successful jobs. There were so many occlusions and failures I couldn't believe it. Their customer service is near nonexistent. Overall it was the biggest waste of $4k I've every been involved in. Beyond that, the materials are a mess and the end prints are super brittle.

I would stick with FDM all the way.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Ouch. I saw their printers at Maker Faire NYC a couple years ago. Good but not great is how I would describe them.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

A Form1, Form1+ or Form2? While I've certainly had my fair share of challenges with my Form1+ in the office, I have a MUCH higher success rate than you are describing. It took some fine tuning and researching, but there are plenty of little tricks that make a big difference.


Just like anything it is a tradeoff. I have seen many budget-friendly FDM printers that are awful - terrible print quality, break downs, jams, you name it. 3D printing is very dynamic marketplace right now, and for consumers that means a lot of potential landmines out there.

-Brando

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

1257 was fortunate with Formlabs and a Form1+, but it helped that Max Lobovsky, the CEO and cofounder, was one of our founding members. Among other uses, we used it to get very smooth wheels for the lift on our elevator in 2015.

So far, we've only used FDM and SLA parts on our robot. However, this year we may have SLS and/or DMLS access through a sponsor.

I'd also say that there are some FDM variants that are beyond what people think of in that context. In particular, the Markforged printers are FDM, but produce remarkably strong parts - the primary material for a Markforged printer is nylon with continous lengths of carbon fiber as reinforcement.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

I picked one of these up a few months ago for around $350.
I've done quite a few small prints with zero failures and only some minor adjustments from the JetGuy YouTube videos to make sure all my axis were square. I leveled it once haven't done any maintenance yet. All prints are in PLA so far, but I have some ABS I'm gonna try out soon. Also haven't done many large prints yet, but my expectations are high based on other users reviews and videos.

I have to say this is a world of difference over the Makerbit Replicator 2 that we have on the team. I feel like its a dice roll just getting parts to adhere to the bed on that machine. Even with PLA. And this machine is more than 5x cheaper.

If you're looking to spend less than $2k on a printer, I'd definitely suggest checking out the i3 clones out there. I'm very happy with my purchase and there's a great community designing parts and developing mods for new features. Wanhow is also very responsive to the changes the community is making to make the printer work better.
I watched prices for about 6months and in that time they improved the way the extruder was mounted, fixed electrical problems, improved the print bed material, improved the adjustments for bed leveling, changed the way the LCD and button are arranged to make it easier to use. Lots of little things, but its great to see active and quick responses to problems found by end users.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

It's a super cool technology, but when every job fails and they tell you that the solution is to buy the new model I'll look elsewhere. We did make a really cool RSL holder that was clear and put an LED ring in it to work as an inocator. That was fun at least. But it took 7 tries to get it to print...

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

It's a Form1+. I messed with it for about 6 months testing everyday. The big problem was that a failure destroyed the print trays so continuing with it actually cost more than our Stratasys Uprint machine. And as most that 3d print know, stratasys is anything but cheap for consumables...

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

My experience is dramatically different than yours with the same machine. Seems like you've been pretty plugged into trying to fix/tune it, so not sure what else there is to say. I've been using the 2 print trays we have for the past 18 months...

-Brando

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Expanding on this, consumer 3D printing still has a ways to go, to get to the print and forget stage. There are just so many variables and moving parts. Every consumer 3D printer I have seen from $3K to $100 has had some of the same issues.

I have had times when I printed hundreds of parts without a failure, then times when it seemed every part failed on the same printer. Printer parts fail, jam, and wear out. Figuring out where the failure happens and how to quickly solve it brings a lot of details in here.

But this is a great chance to give students hands on troubleshooting and maintenance experience.

We have printed a wide variety of parts. Some performed better than others. We were able to use the failures (both in printing and in operation) as teaching opportunities.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

My Maker select arrived yesterday and it pretty good. 4 out of 5 stars so far.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

The Prusa i3 MK2 has been getting killer reviews lately for its reliability and print quality. It's considered by most to be the best hobby grade FDM printer at any price.
http://shop.prusa3d.com/en/3d-printe...3-mk2-kit.html


A review by a highly respected member of the 3d printing community: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfe_84FGJ8c

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

I have the privilege of using a SLA printer at work (specifically, a Stratasys Objet30 Pro) and man is it lovely! Unfortunately it costs tens of thousands of dollars and is thus not something a company would likely donate to a FRC team, but if you can find a sponsor who has one then you're in for a treat. I haven't personally used a consumer-level SLA printer like one from Formlabs to compare, but at the industrial level SLA is quite nice.

Upsides: Incredible accuracy and surface finish (can hold tolerances of 0.004"), high strength of finished parts (compared to FDM, at least), and the option to print somewhat flexible parts (the end result being similar to polypropylene) in addition to rigid parts.

Downsides: High cost of resin, long printing times (would take 6-12 hours to print something the size of a tennis ball, depending on what material you're using), and much regular cleaning/upkeep needed to prevent a breakdown.

I will say the long print time is not as big a hurdle as one might think. The key is letting the long prints run overnight and coming in to a tray full of parts in the morning.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

In regards to SLS printers they are absolutely amazing. One of our mentors who works at HP was able to throw in our drive train spacers to his print in a nylon SLS printer and it was incredible the tolerances it held. The only down sides are the price to run one of those things and the 24 hour cool down time that the parts need in order to return to room temperature.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Our school has a few Formlabs SLA printers (1 and 1+). They can produce very good parts, but there is a fair bit of upkeep that is required. I haven’t used them for robot parts, but I have used them to produce small precision parts for F1 In Schools. They seem fairly reliable, and the Design and Technology Department use them as part of their curriculum in which they are used to produce probably around 80-100ish parts per year. That said I probably wouldn’t recommend an SLA printer to a team just wanting to make a few parts here and there.

An FDM printer is going to be quicker, easier and cheaper to run for the style of parts that FRC teams commonly make.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Since this has turned into a 3D printer recommendation thread...

57 won a Makergear M2 in the printer lottery a couple years back, and it's been pretty reliable with good, fast support. Makergear has been diligently but quietly rolling out upgrades over the years that make it even better. The latest revision is supposed to be solid enough that it pretty much never needs bed levelling, which is saying something. I've had to turn the team's back over to the school for various reasons, and went ahead an purchased my own in kit form. They also occasionally have lightly used or refurbished machines for a discount.

I highly recommend splurging the $150 for Simplify3D for the M2 or for any printer supported by S3D. The presets and support generation make it much easier to get successful prints.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

OMG YES! If anyone from FIRST is paying attention then get Simplify3D added to the Virtual KOP please! It's amazing software.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

+∞
They do have a bulk educational license option, but you only really need one license. (which can be used on 2 computers simultaneously)

It's amazing to see the difference between other popular slicers and S3D. Even with identical settings, the S3D prints almost always turn out better. It can even generate .x3g and .makerbot (for the Replicator gen 5) files, and S3D has a much better interface than the Makerware.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Confession: We got a free license with the lottery M2. My initial reaction was "Bah! I know how to use slic3r, this paid stuff can't be that good." Boy was that silly. Luckily the license coupon was still good a couple months later and suddenly my prints were much better and more useful.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

How's that printer working out for you? My team was in talks of buying it for a while but that $4500 price tag was a bit hard to swallow.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

It's awesome. We've turned out a few parts but we've got an FTC team we're sharing our space with that is turning out parts left and right on it.

The worst issue we've seen is that it can jam when printing at full speed on parts that have high fill levels but the fix is easy enough... just slow down the print speed.... which S3D makes super simple.

The support is amazing when we've needed it. We've got an early one so we needed a new extruder and they shipped it out next day and gave us help with installing it and then doing some firmware tweaking/updating.

So far, very impressed with the company.

Also, if you're a non-profit then they'll cut you a bit of a break via tax.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Isn't FRC about engineering? So why buy a printer when you can design and build one? Our team did this over the summer and fall. The goal was to run the CAD team through the design process. This was quite the under taking and I'm not sure everything sank into the students brains. Their CAD skills are very improved. We settled on a cantilevered design based on Openbuilds Parts. Plates and other parts were cut on a cnc router. We are getting good at going from solid works to cutting fast. The printer is mostly done and the CAD needs to be cleaned up. At this point WE have < $500.00 into it. We have a printer now with a 12" x 8" x 12" build volume. I'm going to start pushing the students in November to write everything up into a package to post on Openbuilds. This was not an easy project, but learning experience for the student was excellent. Oh, some of the discussions were priceless.

Re: Acquiring a 3D Printer?
 

Our team uses the Applied Tech departments' 2 Athenas, they are RepRap 3D printers with tons of online resources on how to use. Also not only can they 3D print but our next project with them is to get them to do circuitry and laser cutting! They usually only cost ~$500. Alternatively the DeltaGo is a good printer too, same size as the Athena and same cost.