Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Registration for inter-district play opens up tomorrow. Who's planning on leaving their region for an additional event?

Up here in Ontario we're hoping that our friends from south of the border will continue the long tradition of making the trip up north. There are four events that still have open spots {Windsor, Western (London), Victoria Park (Toronto), and Nipissing (North Bay)} and they would love to host some out of district teams. The Windsor event could be especially attractive to Michigan teams, being right across the border from Detroit.

We're excited to take the plunge into districts this season and would love to see some of you join us for this inaugural season!

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Karthik (and others in Ontario),

How's the situation with key volunteers? I'm not affiliated with any team but I do volunteer at events a lot...

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I don't think anyone from GA will be heading to Ontario, sorry Karthik. I frankly don't expect any GA teams to leave the region, but it wouldn't surprise me if a couple (1261, maybe a couple others) head up to NC, especially for the UNC Asheville event.

As for coming to GA, if any more spots open up at Albany and Dalton, I've heard rumors a couple teams might be coming......

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

We'd love to see some inter NE-Canada play. Back to the good ol' days of 2013 when 610, 2386 and others joined us at GSR.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Lots of room at Greater Boston! Week 3.

- Come for pure fun, and 6 hours of un-bag.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

The St Joseph district event in IN has plenty of space for some out of state competitors.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

WE ALWAYS NEED KEY VOLUNTEERS. I think that's pretty obvious, more help is always appreciated. I know that there's been a lot of talk about struggling to get enough trained volunteer positions since we added quite a few events in Ontario this year, but I'm not quite sure where they stand with that issue right now. However, I'd bet that you wouldn't be turned away if you wanted to volunteer at an Ontario event.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I'll have to see. I have an opening (maybe?) Week 5 and I could maybe do London or Windsor. Windsor is closer but London I'm more familair with (My employer has a manufacturing plant there that my boss and I support).

I don't want to step on toes though... Off topic question: How hard is it for an American to come over to volunteer in Canada? I do have a passport but I've always heard customs can be a bit of an, ahem, pain in the rear to deal with. It wasn't bad last time but I've heard horror stories from my boss.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Larry,

It depends on who the customs agent is you get that day. Just like anything else that has customer service affiliated with it. I went to Montreal last year for their regional, and customs was a breeze. It's easier when you're going for non-business purposes, and are straight forward with the agents. Simply explain that you're going to volunteer at a robotics competition and, if the event is close enough to the border crossing, I suggest you offer them an invitation to come check it out.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Many of the higher profile volunteer positions (Head Ref, LRI, Field Supervisor, MC, GA) are filled, but there are still a few openings. In general, we're always looking for volunteers to help run out events.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I would love to see some teams from other districts come down to North Carolina. We had a great experience with 234 and 1501, both from the Indiana District.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Don't forget 5188, Classified Robotics from Terre Haute, IN.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I can't seem to find the Windsor event listed on FIRST. When is it?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Scorekeepers?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

March 30 - April 1st. It's listed as the "Ontario District - Windsor Essex Great Lakes Event".

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Nope, not coming up for me on the FIRST website under event search. But given the date we have a conflict with it anyways with one of our local events.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I'm not certain, but I believe there's still a need for Scorekeepers.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Hmm, I'm noticing the same glitch.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

It won't appear if the dates conflict with another event you are already signed up for. All the other events that share the week will not be listed as a choice for you in TIMS.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

is there a way to see all events and open spaces?

we are waitlisted on 2 weeks, so i don't see any of the other district options so we can decide.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Signed us up for the CHP Blacksburg event. On the waitlist so hopefully we'll get in but I don't have my hopes up.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

CHS events appear to have lowered their capacities this morning, so that any inter-district registrations would be wait lists instead of guaranteed registrations. I understand this, as they wanted to preserve any open slots for potentially late registering local teams.

http://173.255.246.196/2017/

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I believe they did the same in GA a while back, because I know that PCH Gainesville will have 36-38 teams, and only 32 have registered to date.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

All inter-district teams last year were immediately waitlisted. Those who applied for this kind of participation will have to wait until likely the first or second week of December.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

So far Ontario has 5 teams coming to visit from other districts.

33 - Windsor
190 - Western
216 - Victoria Park
244 - Victoria Park
288 - Victoria Park

Does anyone else have data on teams taking advantage of inter-district play?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Many districts seem to be taking the wait list approach to all inter-district play. Good chance we won't know any meaningful data on it until later.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Michigan team here, about 15-20 minutes from Detroit, but attending "local" competitions for multiple reasons. Of course, I don't speak for my whole team, but lots of people on our team are mostly worried about the travel expenses and time. Hope to see some Canadian teams in the Michigan District, maybe for a chance to be on Robozone.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I was told that FIRST isn't allowing events to open up the waitlist until 12/12/16*.


*I used the American date format instead of the International one

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Thanks for the clarification. :rolleyes:

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I do not believe there will be a lot of open spots in Michigan unless we add another another event (a couple were added a couple weeks ago). That being said, we are now a large enough organization that we might have some pre-season fallout which could open up a few spots.

Relevant to this thread, the standard 40 team district format with 12 matches requires 80 matches for qualifying (every match counts). Each team added or removed increases or decreases the schedule by 2 matches effectively. With an early season cycle time of likely 7-ish minutes, adding a team basically adds about 15 minutes more towards the qualifying schedule. Later in the season, adding 1 is a bit less impactful as the cycle time tends to get faster with practice and experienced robots.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

My fuzzy memory and math skills tell me there will be about 8 extra slots.

456* teams x 2 events = 912 slots needed
23 events x 40 teams = 920 slots

Fuzzy math skills tell me 920 - 912 = 8 extra slots



*Fuzzy memory tells me that was the number Gail gave

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Hey Karthik, you guys should come to Indiana.::rtm:: :ahh: :yikes:

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

From the registration thread, there is a team from Israel (5715) signed up for FIM - Lake Superior State University.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Those were the numbers I was told a week or so ago. I would suspect that at least a few of those 456 teams (WOW) will drop out, but we should not plan on having a lot of open slots.

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We have 8 teams from MI coming to the St. Joseph event (74, 226, 503, 2771, 3357, 4004, 5110, 5502). Subject to change, of course.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I think you mean 2771

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I do. My bad.

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1076 was originally planning on trying to come, and then we ended up hosting an event Week 2, soooo better luck next year ):

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Not to be a party pooper, but with 8 MI teams coming to an Indiana District Event, I feel like the Indiana teams at the event will be at a major disadvantages as they are simply trying to get points, but they keep getting taken away by MI teams.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Tradeoffs. Live in a bubble and never meet a new team from someone far away, or lose a couple points because MI teams have magic mojo in the water that inherently makes them better than IN teams. :ahh:

Or learn from these teams and use that as motivation to be better than them. Your choice! I personally think that anyone at the event will have a major advantage as they are able to play with high level teams and will understand the game way better than the teams that didn't attend the event.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

8/31 is a chunk. And by my count, 13/31 are going to be Indiana teams playing their second scored event in two weeks (461, 1501, 1646, 1747, 2171, 2909, 3147, 3865, 3936, 3940, 4580, 4824, 4982). I don't think that's going to affect many of them, but that might affect some bubble aspirations. (Six of those teams finished last year either missing state or finishing bottom-five of the teams that made it.)

But as they say back in my homeland: to be the man, you gotta beat the man.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Has there ever been an district event with this many outsiders?

I know at both of our last district qualifying events, 461 has seriously considered not picking in-state teams purely for district point reasons. Being on the bubble each year for points based spots to worlds, we count every potential point carefully.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Nope, and it should be fun to watch because if the out of district teams completely dominate the local teams, causing many to miss out on advancement to district champs, it may cause FIRST to put hard limits on how many slots at a district event can go to teams outside a district.


WOO!

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

3314 - The Mechanical Mustangs, look forward to seeing you at CHP Southwest Virginia, aka Blacksburg. Here is the list of interdistrict teams at our event:

223 - Xtreme Heat (MAR)
587 - Hedgehogs (NC)
900 - Zebracorns (NC)
3314 - Mechanical Mustangs (MAR)
3494 - The Quadrangles (IND)
4653 - Ironman Robotics (MAR)

We can't wait! We love competing against new teams. No room in NE this year but maybe 2018 we will be back. Definitely will be up in NE for Battlecry WPI in the Spring.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

On-field, sure. But those Michigan teams are also ineligible for Chairman's, EI, and RAS. That means relatively light competition among Indiana teams. I don't think anyone unworthy would end up with those awards, but you've got to like your chances when only 22 teams can win the first two awards. (31 teams, 8 are Michigan, 1 is a rookie that wouldn't win Chairman's or EI but could win RAS if the judges deem them worthy.)

I prefer this one.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I feel like this is one of those things that some local district teams will complain about because they don't quite understand how district points work but it isn't actually true and I suspect the impact of out of district teams on district events will be minimal overall.

Yes, out of district teams coming in have the ability to disrupt the event as any outside force does but they can't progress to that district championship. Chances are the top teams in the district will still be the top teams in the district regardless of the outside teams coming in. The outside teams also contribute $1000 to the local district, and they had to wait a really long time to sign up for the event to begin with.

But hey, what do I know? I want to get rid of bags. :rolleyes:

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I knew my post would cause some controversy. I'm simply saying that, since there are so few teams in Indiana to begin with, for teams to be superseded by Michigan teams would actually affect their district points overall. Due to the margin of district points being so low, at least judging from last year, every point counts. Not only that, teams may create specific strategies, specifically during elims that really only apply to the MI teams. This not only wastes time, but resources as well. Obviously we want as many teams as possible to keep the event interesting, but it would be a shame if the level of play for IN teams just because we have so many MI teams going. Again, I respect all the teams coming.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Unless the Michigan teams somehow rank 1-8, then all pick each other, then proceed to have only their alliances in the semi's the impact will hopefully be minimal.

Do you not plan on having to deal with the 82 minimum Michigan teams if your team goes to champs? Because all things being equal about 1/5 of all the teams at North Champs will be from Michigan meaning most likely you will have a Michigan team in every match. Call me crazy but getting a taste before hand of what to expect at champs (like we did this year seeing both 118 and 16 at Rocket City and Newton) is crazy valuable down the line.


I think there is a word missing here, but my big pet peeve about all this, is before inter-district play sign up all the open slots became waitlisted, I am guessing the event runner would have prioritized Indiana teams if they signed up. So either not enough wanted a 3rd play or they couldn't afford it. If it is the former then unfortunately the only way to solve this is to grow the district so there is less waitlist spots. If it is the latter then the out of district teams will help raise funds within the district to hopefully eventually lead to the district offering financial aid to the teams.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Are you really a FIRSTer from Indiana?

The ones I have known since way-back-in-the-day are not just unafraid of Michigan teams, they welcome every chance they get to kick our behinds. Looking at the Michigan teams that have registered for the St. Joseph (Indiana) event, I see a nice correspondence with Indiana teams of similar strength and experience. Indiana has a proud history of strong, experienced teams that study the game carefully, build solid machines, have well trained drivers, scout effectively, and pick alliances strategically -- all to maximize their competitive results. Teams that are working to become strong and experienced (Git Gud*) watch those that already are, and learn. More good teams = BETTER EVENT, for the competition and for the real mission of FIRST.

I would welcome any or all of the Michigan teams that are registered for St. Joseph (Indiana) to come play with us in St. Joseph (Michigan) -- we are hosting our event the same weekend, and it is about one hour closer for Michigan teams. Last time I looked we still have a few spots open.**

--------
*


**I am not privy to FiM event roster assignments, so I don't know why those spots are still held.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Maybe I didn't word it properly... What I meant to say is that teams that have a low budget may take the time to cheescake or creates some fancy mechanism specifically for having a certain match against a MI team, which they may not be able to use in any other situations. Obviously this is no reason to not have MI teams in IN, it was just something that I thought of.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

A brief history of cheese caking:

2016: A blocker could be built out of spare materials and a shirt (cost $0)
2015: Most cheese caked thing was bin grabbers which usually if they are going on your robot you aren't making (Cost $0)
2014: Something to bounce the ball off of for an inbounder such as a stick (cost $0)
2013: A blocker can be build out of spare materials and a shirt (cost $0)

Also adding any of those things to your robot should not only be useful in one match or tournament, sure you may take them off but you most likely will need them again.

I can't think of a single time someone cheesecaked something to use against a specific robot that would only be useful against said robot.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Can someone explain the logic behind employing a different strategy against an out-of-district team? Assuming your goal is to maximize your team's place in your district's standings, you want the out-of-district teams to do well. That way your district opponents get fewer points.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

That's some good stuff you got there... mind sharing it with the rest of us?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I remember specifically someone at an IN event making a mechanisms for elims, specifically against who they were facing against in the finals. But anyway, thats not really my main point. I'm not saying its wrong that MI teams are coming, in fact I love seeing new teams. I'm just saying that it might be disadvantageous for other teams. As someone previously said, for teams that it is their first event, it might be odd having so many teams which they may not see again in their next event, which is something that doesn't really happen in IN under the district system. It is not uncommon to see a certain team at more than one events throughout the season in IN due to the small number of teams present.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

But the same can be said of your team as well can't it? I mean, for the most part, teams that do extra events for practice are usually strong competitors, meaning that they will tend to do well. If somehow the top 8 are all MI teams, then you can't get as many points and neither can anyone else at the competition. This gives them a disadvantage in comparison to teams who don't attend the event if they do end up being able to rank highly. Obviously, this is theoretical as it assumes that MI teams are somehow going to be head and shoulders above all the IN teams at the event.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Seeing a pattern yet?

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Hey I'm just not trying to offend either the IN or the MI teams here.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Ok, fine. Let's switch out MI and IN for MAR and VA... and as we all know, I'm willing to offend everyone. Here is my version of your statement:

Obviously, this is theoretical as it assumes that MAR teams are somehow going to be head and shoulders above all the VA teams at the event.

Yep, pattern is this same. This is nonsense and conjecture and not based on any math, statistics, or actual analysis of the situation.

From my perspective, out of district teams are not likely to exert a considerable force of change on the order. From my admittedly limited knowledge of modeling, systems tend to drift toward equilibrium and given the relative ranking of teams in a district, the force of an out of district team or teams acting on the system is not going to change the ranking of the top teams in the district. It's going to end up the same regardless given that out of district teams cannot play in the DCMP for that district so the relative ranking of teams within the district remains.

I'll happily yield this point if you or someone can show me something more concrete than "maybe/probably/somehow/in theory" it could happen.

EDIT: And I really hope for the sake of this community that most people don't see it as "outside teams come in and rob the proper placed teams of their rightful place in a district" because if they do then FRC is about to become very isolated. In the past few months I've been reminded twice by people in the FRC community that I respect a lot that our worlds have gotten smaller (While trying to organize a multi-state workshop for FRC teams no less). No longer will teams from NC compete regularly against teams from VA and SC.... and that makes me sad and at least a few other people seem to be sad about it too. If we contribute to this isolationist attitude by thinking that somehow outsider teams coming in makes our own teams less competitive then we're headed for some dark times in FRC. We need to be welcoming of these outside teams, not pooping on them because #MFGA and #BuildADistrictWall sounds good.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

As a supporter of Indiana robot builders, I'd like to say the following about interdistrict play in 2017:

Bring it.
I ain't skeerd.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I'd like to echo this sentiment, both as an FRC mentor for 1747 and as an accessory to the planning committee of the Tippecanoe district both last season and for this upcoming season. The Michigan teams that attended our event last year were a pleasure to work with and great competitors. We welcome our brothers and sisters in FIRST from the north.

If you're worried about Michigan teams coming down to Indiana to hurt your chances, that may say more about you or your team than it does about the teams coming down. Good luck this season!

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

The bolded phrase is the key phrase.

Obviously you always want your team to perform well. But that doesn't change when you're facing a Michigan team or an Indiana team. You want to win the matches you're in. You want to seed high. Etc.

What changes between an in-district and an out-of-district is that points "disappear" when earned by an out-of-district team. It's beneficial for your ranking efforts if every point you fail to earn ends up disappearing, rather than going into the ranking of one of your in-district opponents.

Think of it this way. Say your team in ranked 5th at your event. If you're ranked 5th at your event and the 4 teams ahead of you are from Indiana, you take the 5th most standing points away from the event. If you're ranked 5th, and the 4 teams ahead of you are from Michigan, you take the most standing points away from the event. The total points you receive is the same in each scenario, but the latter scenario results in 4 fewer Indiana opponents gaining a lead on you in the district standings.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Sentiment Thirded.
I can't WAIT to see our InF teams play against FiM teams!

Points can't be stolen because points must be earned.

If you didn't earn those points against a Michigan team, then it's not the Michigan's team fault for beating your team. It's your team's fault for not EARNING them. There aren't participation medals in FRC anymore.


So, who are you? What team are you associated with? Why do you not have these things listed in your CD profile?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Uh, why do they need to have a team listed?

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

IDK I'm pretty proud of my team, I assume others feel the same.
Also I'm pretty proud of myself and my FRC accomplishments, and I don't feel the need to hide behind an anonymous account.
But to each his own.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

They don't. It's not a requirement. Maybe they aren't even associated with any team. Who knows?

This person has been very vocal lately, and I personally believe that accountability by saying who you are can lead to more thoughtful posts on Chief Delphi.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Eh, some folks like their privacy. I can respect that. I don't think calling them out on that is really a great idea.


Plus, everyone knows who I am and many would claim my posts aren't "thoughtful" :P

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Conversely, at another event w/ only district teams, 4 teams gain more points than you.

Not sure the system is flawed, but then again?? If you’re the best team from your district at a district event, it might be a bit tough to see another district team gain more points being the 3rd best at a different event.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Looking at the PNW, there looks to be no teams coming to any PNW events, more likely than not because of the cost, as most of the other districts are in the Midwest/East Coast and the sheer cost of travel...

it would be nice if we had more districts out here, or if we just take Idaho...

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

In the future, I think it would be neat to have districts setup with overhead for more inter-district play, I.E. we'll allocate an extra 10-20% for empty spots in a competition with the expectation that other districts do the same. Maybe an extra week 1 event?

I have no idea how that could work or the type of horse trading required, it also assumes teams in the district wanting 3rd plays are sated. Maybe teams signing up for their 3rd event between districts could trade events?

Just a thought.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I was more referring to the various posts in this thread regardless in-event strategy. Specifically the posts saying teams considered not picking Michigan teams or strategizing so that Michigan teams would not be as effective in their event. These strategies are actively harmful to your own ranking efforts.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

I look forward to competing with MI teams. If we are better then we will have earned the points. If not we will have been exposed to even more teams and ideas. Either way sounds like a win to me......and isn't that what FIRST is supposed to be about?

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Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

there's no reason not to... ;)

And Calif...

Oh wait.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

So far I only see one person from Indiana that's against having Michigan teams at Indiana events. Strategically it makes sense to pick a Michigan team over an Indiana team assuming it doesn't hurt how far you get in the bracket.

Of the Michigan teams at IN district events last year, they accounted for 174 points out of 2948 qualifying points (6%) and 174 points out of the 5735 total number of point for the state (3%).

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

To expand on this a bit, by my calculation that would have been enough to put four different teams above where the point cutoff for the Indiana district championship was last year. That's ~7% of the teams in the district.

Have there been any other situations with such a large portion of the field not earning points? You get the similar incentives for avoiding certain picks when you have teams on their third event. The most third plays that I know of offhand was at the 2016 Philomath event, where I believe there were 4 teams out of 30 not eligible to earn points. (1318, 1983, 2907, 5803)

Unusual strategic effects would have been blunted somewhat by the fact that there were half the number of teams not earning points and it was in a district that was 3x the size.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

If we're talking about lost points, a large number of points were essentially lost at the Perry Meridian event last year as the event winners included the 2 highest point holders in the state (also at their third event) and an original and sustaining team who automatically qualifies for worlds without points. That's 174 points (132 not including 45).

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

Wait, I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding but I never would have suggested that IN teams should avoid picking MI teams. I think it sort of ruins the idea of FIRST to not pick the best team possible, for your alliance, and rather put your focus on avoiding teams.

Re: Inter-District Play in 2017
 

In MI, that would mean putting on 3 to 5 more EVENTS to get a 10-20% vacancy rate. Not gonna happen.