Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

If you haven't seen Frank's latest blog post you can find it here,

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...pack-3-buttons

In the post there is a picture of the new drive team buttons for 2017, if you look closely you will notice that there are 4 drive team buttons and another for the drive coach. Could this be one of the hints for this year's game, will there be an additional drive team member on the field.

This is something that could open up some cool possibilities with the game, as long as it doesn't end up with human players scoring more than robots do, ala Lunacy in 2009.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I noticed this as well. I think the last time 5 people/team were behind the glass was 2001 when teams were allowed 2 drive coaches.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I think it is likely that there will be two human players this year. It wouldn't really make sense to change the amount of drivers, because it will just crowd the space behind the glass.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Somebody has to be the Drone Pilot ;)

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Another possibility I thought up. What if the 4th drive team member is an optional button if you use a student as your "coach". So only 4 people on drive teams but you can either have 4 students or 3 students and one adult "coach". That way it would encourage* student coaches who could manipulate game pieces, touch controls, etc. And only adult coaches wearing the special button wouldn't be allowed to interact with game pieces, etc.

*I'm not saying it's something that should be encouraged but I can see the argument for it.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

The extra button could also just be a spare, but that's far less interesting than other possibilities, so let's keep speculating.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I've been on drive teams since 2007 and have yet to be given a spare button, even if it would have come in handy sometimes when drivers disappear into the stands

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

That's because teams got a new set of buttons at each event*. Another way to read too much into this blog post would be to interpret the "every team will be getting a set like this" portion as teams will be getting one set of drivers buttons with their kickoff kit, and they have to keep them all year.




*With the exception of some years in the district format

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Yeah there is no way that is a spare. Queuers would hate everyone at that point...

Everyone just remember some of thing things Frank has done in the past...

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

That seems very plausible since they don't have events on them like they did in the past. That seems like an extremely silly way to cut cost to me if it's true.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Possibly a true, teleoperated minibot?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

If this thread isn't a sign that CD is going through some serious withdrawals, I don't know what is.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

It's a good thing we are so close to kickoff then, plus the promise of more hints in the DLC unlocked tonight

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

4th drive team member... Prepare to TAKE FLIGHT! :eek:

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Just give me a little more of that build season and ill be okay *twitches*

Seriously though, I doubt that we will get a 4th driver. I dont see how we would have room to begin with. Even in 2015 it was a bit cramped.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Silly, but with more teams going to 2 or more events than ever before (districts), it's probably saving a lot of raw material.

- Sunny G.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I mean silly in that it will probably cause more waste because so many teams will lose or forget them. As an LRI I see a couple teams every event that don't have their lock up forms (which literally allows you to work on you robot) so I'm sure teams will lose buttons. Some teams find it difficult to not lose the buttons during a 3 day event let alone a 16 week season.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

There have been years where teams didn't get new buttons for district championship, and were expected to re-use their previous buttons. Most teams were able to do that (at least after practice day), but there was always at least a handful that had to get new buttons made up.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

The spare button theory doesn't make sense. What if the coach looses their button? It also can't cost THAT much to make new buttons for each event. I mean we pay $4k an event, Id hope FIRST would be able to pay for new buttons every tournament.

However, a second Human Player is quite possible. This would mean that there could be two possible ways humans can interact with the robot, one of which not behind the glass.

A drone operator is also kind of impractical for obvious reasons but hey, it's fun to speculate :)

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

As a team who has used our second driver as a human player whenever it was legal to do so (trust me it wasn't always legal) I don't know if there is a way to use another human player for us.

However one cool thought that crossed my mind was if this person is a builder. Lets say the game either promotes modulation and this persons job is to swap out robot parts in a safe area where the robot is disabled (like the pressure pads in 2005) or they have to build the scoring component(s) basically part of the challenge is also how quickly the teams members can build interlocking puzzle game pieces even if only for the end game.

Honestly this thought crossing my mind will make the eventual explanation upset me cause I don't think it is as cool as that.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

My thoughts exactly. Maybe not a drone, but some sort of aircraft, or maybe a train.

I think there's a possibility that it's to allow you to have a mentor in queue if you have a student coach.

Jetpack game? :cool:

This.

Also a possibility. Maybe something similar to how HPs could place totes in 2003, but only at the beginning of each match.

I think the coach button is an improvement over just the green dot. Since it's now clearly labeled as for the coach only, there should be less confusion. If that button is lost, the coach could use one of the regular buttons, but that wouldn't have the control restrictions, so I don't think that's quite it.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I don't think it's "reading too much into" a blog post to suggest that a picture with a set of buttons on it represents one set of buttons. There's one coach and one safety captain, and then one more button than people expect on a drive team.

It's late December, they know what happens when FIRSTers read blog posts. There's no way they would get one set of buttons and then go "oh, actually yeah, let's grab a sixth button from this second set, with the same team number, that will frame it better". Doesn't make a lick of sense.

Only Championship buttons are labeled with the name of the event on them. Every other button is generic, and can be re-used from event to event. At least since 2009.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Yep you are right, my mistake. Apparently I haven't looked to closely at the buttons in awhile.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Seems like a lot of stuff is pointing to the return of minibots. 5th drive team member is likely a driver for the minibot. Doesn't make too much sense to have 6 human players per alliance.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I didn't see a Media button. Any chance that the Media person is now considered part of the drive team?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Yay! Someone else thinks drones are involved in this game!

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I would guess that it's driver/operator (3) + coach (1) + safety captain (1) + spare (1). Or they figured out that sometimes drive team members aren't the only ones who need field access, and a drive team button design was handy.

There is no way that it's Media. Mainly because media folks are going to really hate being confined in the back of the driver's station, and that's where they'll need to be if they've got a driver's badge! Imagine if you've got a media person roaming the sidelines with cameras, AND getting flagged every match for half the match, just because a "drive team member" stepped outside the box.

Media passes have been event-specific in the past. Some events don't have quite as much space as others...

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Hints you say?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

We can barely communicate with six robots reliably do you guys think FIRST is going to add three mini bots or drones into that crowded bandwidth?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I sure hope so! I love chaos.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Taken right from the blog post,

Looking for a little holiday something from FIRST? Some FIRST STEAMWORKSTM content, maybe a hint or two? Look no further. Lovingly wrapped and delivered!

the button picture may be that hint and the only one we get from this post

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Don't forget the "3, 2, 1, Liftoff" ringtone in the DLC pack. If you ask me that's definitely another hint (and more likely to be the one that the text is referencing, given that it's talking about the DLC pack).

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I saw that thread just after I posted, That is definitely the second hint he is speaking about.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I love this kind of speculation, but since I have so little to complain about now that I'm on vacation, I have a bone to pick with this thread.

Particularly with the title.

The lack of a question mark led me to believe there was some sort of definitive credible source stating that there would be a five person drive team. After reading the source material I discovered that this was merely speculation. I know this is SUPER nit picky, but can we write our titles to be a bit more representative of the content of the thread, as in a thread where the topic is "will there be an additional drive team member on the field" would have the title "Five Person Drive team in 2017?"

I know this is a serious FIRST world problem but I really have nothing better to do, so ignore this if It's as trivial of an issue as the rational half of my brain tells me it is.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Noticed that just after I posted the thread, but as far as I know I can't fix it so it is stuck that way.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017?
 

There is a way to edit titles. It isn't retroactive to later posts, but it'll work if you're quick enough (and others haven't posted). (See the title of this post...)

Click on "Edit", and then click "Go Advanced". That'll bring up a window that looks just like the normal new post window (with a couple of other options, like deleting a post). Edit the title there, save it, and the thread title is changed.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Field communication errors are almost exclusively the fault of the effected team at this point. There is no reason why the field couldn't theoretically run an additional 6 lines of communication with the current hardware, especially if those lines are not transmitting video data. Additionally, who's to say the field networking hardware couldn't be updated to more reliably support 6 additional robots.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I don't believe that is true, there are many times it is something with the team( not updating firmware and such), but as a scorekeeper I have seen what we called a "Christmas tree", where everyone starts to have issues randomly through matches. This issue was resolved by the next day for that regional, but there are still random issues that persist sometimes.

This is not to say that the system would be unable to handle 6 additional feeds, that is totally doable. Another way of doing this would be to bring back the non-human player of 2008 where they could control their robot through the IR sensor. Would be another way of accomplishing that goal.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Too late....

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Yeah, the "Christmas Tree" is primarily why FIRST has updated the radio. The old D-Link radios failed to implement proper WiFi protocols, nor could they enforce bandwidth caps. Basically, WiFi protocol says that when packets are being dropped, the rate at which those packets are sent must be reduced, and the rate at which they are backed off must be random. The issue with the D-Link was that the rate at which they backed off was hard-coded as a set number. Therefore when the network got crowded and packets were dropped, all the radios on the field backed off and then tried to re-send packets at the same time. If you can imagine, that is exactly why the rate should be random, and thats why we saw the "Christmas Tree". Among other things, one of the major improvements with our new radio is that it does in fact back off at a random rate, following proper WiFi protocol. That said, the "Christmas Tree" is not impossible with the new radios, but it would be a very surprising. I personally don't know of a single occurrence it last year, and adding six feeds really shouldn't have much effect on the likely hood of a "Christmas Tree" type of occurrence.

Had we not updated radios, I would totally agree with you. Six additional feeds with the D-Link would absolutely increase the occurrence of the "Christmas Tree" among other things.

If anyone has more questions about what the "Christmas Tree" is(symptoms, causes, fixes) or if you'd like to hear why the recent changes are fixing this issue, feel free to PM me or quote/reply. I'd be happy to answer your questions!

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Crazy(ish) idea, someone already mentioned the extra button being for someone to control some sort of train minibot, if this is the case the train could be controlled directly through the rails and additional functions on board the train could also be controlled if they used a dcc (digital command control) system. Teams could build their own "train" with a specific on-board controller which is programmed to respond to their team number and the additional team member could operate that from a dedicated station, not necessarily directly behind the glass, similar placement to the kinect stations. Many teams probably wouldn't build one of these trains and therefore I think it would almost have to be something like 1 train per alliance and the whole alliance gets the points it scores with regard to ranking. I have not really thought through the scoring and all that and the logistics (events need lots of track cleaner on hand) but I like trains and this is just one way that I think would be really cool to include them into an FRC game. This gives a truly teleoperated minibot without taking up more bandwidth, and dcc systems are incredibly reliable in connecting, as long as the tracks are clean. Also, the trains could pull their power from the rails so they would not need additional batteries on board and at the end of the match the fms could simply cut power to them. As far as the extra people, if only one of these is used per alliance, possibly each team gets an additional button, but to use it they must have their train in hand as they enter the field.

Just another thoroughly crazy idea, but hey, it sounds fun, at least on paper.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

In an effort to control access to the field FIRST stopped giving teams their own media buttons and had six media buttons to be rotated amongst teams during the event. I suspect they will continue this practice.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

At every event I've been to with media passes, (including Worlds) they've given one out to each team, but it was never in the form of a button.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Haven't gotten a media badge in three years or so. Everybody still gets one at worlds, but they only let you out on the field when your team is up now. This is probably better than the old system of "everybody who's cool gets a floor badge".

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Teams still abuse it and sneak in and then I gottta go play bad cop....

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Maybe the extra drive team member is the designated robot cart mover, so no one leaves carts everywhere... just for you Koko Ed.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Something similar to this perhaps?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Interesting thoughts.

But I lean closer to the idea that we're getting one set for the season rather than new buttons each event, so a spare makes sense.

Fun to speculate though!

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Or maybe a variation on this!

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

We've been discussing the possibility of a flying drone as low, UNLESS it is attached to some sort of large inflatable that slows its movement, and makes it easy to spot...

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Everyone's 4th drive team member sits on a Dunk tank ledge. At the end of the match the loosing team gets dunked. :eek: WATER GAME! :D

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I think everybody'd be down for that--except the MVF* who drew Dunk Tank duty...



*Most Valuable Freshman. May also be a non-freshman pre-college student, who is depromoted to Freshman simply for the, er, privilege of having a chance at being dunked. :p

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

We get to control blimps! Wooo

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

At one of my events I scorekept at this year (I'd like to say warren district but my memory is shot) we did get a christmas tree due to Wifi interference (other networks on the same 5G channel), which was fixed by swapping WiFi channels.

That said, the new radios, from a field management point of view, were really awesome indeed. I'll take one christmas tree over an entire year over the mess the year before was. Especially during my stint on Hopper Field in 2015, where we suffered more christmas trees than the holiday section at Walmart.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Ever since I heard the train whistle ring tone that was part of the first downloadable content pack, I've been thinking there could be, in addition to the usual custom bot, some sort of simple bots on rails that at part of the field like trains or perhaps elevated zeppelins that travel back and forth across the course on a cable. One for each team, and there would need to be an operator for each team... and thus the need for an extra drive team member. We'll find out soon enough ::safety:: :cool: :D

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Agreed. Especially after seeing this wheel voucher.

http://www2.bwc.com/firstvoucher

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Overdrive style mini/end game confirmed?

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

You mean LogoMotion? Overdrive had placing trackballs on the overpass for an endgame, no minibots.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Does this really mean that we have a 2-hour window the day of kickoff (during the kickoff) to purchase 4 radial-loading and/or crown linear guide rollers made of stainless or carbon steel? That's a heck of a niche market we're dealing with here.

EDIT: Correction, crown rollers come in polymer as well as carbon steel, but the picture is of a steel radial, so it's not so clear what the bounds of the offer are.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I also JUST saw the comment on the bottom of the voucher page. http://www2.bwc.com/firstvoucher

I'm not terribly familiar with what AndyMark First Choice usually stocks but I thought it was interesting that they emphasize it.

http://firstchoicebyandymark.com/search?q=track

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Nice catch. Train minibots incoming :ahh:

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

This is stocked every year :)

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

I actually did mean overdrive, where minibots would be playing some version of it, like the minibots score by making laps around the feild.

Re: Five Person Drive team in 2017
 

Obviously a plan 4 years in the making just so we won't suspect it at this exact moment :rolleyes: