[FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

FRC Blog post. Posted on 12/22/16.

Wow, looks like paper airplane throwing finally against the rules.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Oh boy here we go

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

So now are they going to schedule things so that we don't have to sit at Einstein for long periods of time doing nothing?

Thank goodness for FIRST coming to their senses and making throwing things against the rules. It was so ridiculous watching Einstein this year with the field getting bombarded with paper airplanes.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

In case I haven't said this enough...

FRANK, YOU'RE THE MAN.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

For those curious here is the link to what the first part of the blog title is referencing, and what the asterisk is for.

Also shout out to 1065 and 5872 for representing Florida in the video. (If you are a Florida team and I missed you sorry)

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Thanks Frank! Yes we all can grow up and be a little mature and show respect and gracious professionalism at FIRST events. If anyone of you are bored at the events, please bring your favorite book or coloring book and keep yourself busy!

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

- talk with teammates about cool matches you seen
- discuss upcoming matches and make predictions
- reflect on what your team could have done to make it to Einstein
- plan out dinner for the evening
- play games on phone
- bet on whether will.i.am will be allowed in the building...

The list goes on.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Beautiful video. I agree as Frank mentions in the post, that the poetry is the device that gets the message across. Thanks for linking the video for those who have yet to see it.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

TSIMFL?

(Locked) :D

Huge +1. I sat and watched all of Einstein this year and I was never once bored.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

You obviously didn't have to sit through Einstein 2015. :rolleyes:

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

I may or may not have been spotted with a sudoku book--and a pen--in my hands at one or more events...
I may or may not have seen someone watching Holy Grail on a laptop in the stands some years back...
I may or may not have reading material in my backpack at any given event...
Ditto for a deck of cards...

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

+1

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Will the enforce this any better than no seat saving?

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

It may be a little bit easier to enforce. It's a little more obvious when UFOs are spotted airborne. Identifying the originator(s) may be a little less easy than spotting violations, but a couple of announcements of "Will the persons throwing paper airplanes from Section XYZ please cease and desist before event staff arrives to enforce cleanup" ought to do the trick.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

The bigger story here should be the video. It really is great (if you can get past the "hydraulic arms" part), its captures how powerful a tool FIRST can be for positive change, and why I support the program. I think they finally got their messaging figured out, now how do we spread this message farther.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

It's really cute how people think that there won't be paper airplanes everywhere just because there's a rule about it now. :rolleyes:

Maybe if FIRST had said something 6 years ago when it first happened, there was a shot at that, but at this point they're closing the stable door well after the horse has bolted

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

So does this also mean no more beach balls bouncing around the stands?

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

They are things. So yes. No beach balls.

I'd also like them to make a point of mentioning lasers. For the past 2 years there has been a small group firing lasers around the dome. It hasn't gone unnoticed though they might think it has.

Finally - it's time to print up some signs and hang them at the entrances to the stands.

FRC Rules in the Stands
1. No throwing things.
2. No saving seats.
3. No lasers.
4. Clean up after yourselves!

Then folks who are having trouble remembering the rules can be given a gentle reminder. We shouldn't need this sort of thing, but it's pretty clear that mentors from some groups simply don't keep a close enough eye on their team members. Finally - stop giving out so many copies of the programs, etc. Have them where they can be picked up, in the pits, by people who want them. That will deprive a lot of people of their ammo.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

In my opinion, the programs are super useful for the members of the public who have are interested in STEM but have no experience with FIRST. They help explain what is going on. If there are fewer programs available and they are hard to find, it would do little to reduce the paper airplanes but make it harder for the totally new people to find them. This could result in more confused members of the public, and, they would be less likely to create new teams, which is the real goal here right?

That's just my 2 cents.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Especially when they bring top men from the Air Force up on stage who ask everyone to do it.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

This is probably true, and while I applaud FRC taking a firm position on this (finally - there's nothing worse than when people don't know the official policy), I think it would have been better (both in terms of chance of success and people's enjoyment) to have channeled the "tradition" into an officially sanctioned "paper airplane contest" of some sort (preferably one that does not result in award ceremony participants and robots being showered with projectiles).

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

First off, videos like that give me the warm fuzzies.. even more so when the underrepresented Upper Peninsula in Michigan is in the opening shot (#Bravebots)

+2

As a coach and a volunteer I will certainly be reinforcing it. Im sure it will go out in emails to the coaches, and it should certainly be something they reinforce within their own teams. I might just have a copy of the rule saved to my phone to show to teams who may not believe it. Its a serious issue and I think if all adults speak to their teams about it we can eliminate it. In a similar note, to the quote below, I hope FIRST puts out another reminder about this. It needs to be self policing (or adult policing) but I find more often than not, the adults are the problem with it. Maybe some people can pull their heads from their bots and read the rules :yikes: :rolleyes: ::rtm::

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

I'm glad to see there won't be any more paper plane throwing allowed. I'd love to see how it's going to be enforced (just saying it's bad and should be team enforced is a limp-wristed approach).

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

So where is this rule going to be published? There's no more Admin Manual. It'll be buried somewhere on the website.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Agreed, but I don't really see how else they can enforce it. With so many people in the stands, are they going to have guards policing for airplanes/other "things"? That seems a little absurd as well.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Maybe mentors can step up, set a good example, and make sure their team isn't doing it. Besides ejecting people from the building there is no punishment/penalty that FIRST can impose on a team at that point in the season.

As a team, we've had a no paper airplane (or extreme littering as I like to call it) rule for a few years with no issues.

*I'll never forget seeing a kid dump a paper box of used scouting forms over the railing while an adult on their team just watched and laughed. No remorse either when confronted...

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

It seems like that rule goes against your team name. :)

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

That's what I was saying though. There's really not another way to enforce the rule, but as Ed said:

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Unfortunately, I believe that this will be just another unenforceable, penalty-less rule issued by FIRST (just like the no saving seats rule) with no one given the responsibility of enforcing it.

Personally, I believe that FIRST is going about this the wrong way. I think they should encourage the paper airplane ... make it a contest at the champs ... and give them a spot to do this (maybe that will encourage them to do it at the designated spot rather than during Deans speech :ahh: )

JMHO

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

I actually think that--should it actually be necessary--this one is enforceable, and has some teeth.

Enforceable: If it's noticed that there are paper airplanes (etc.) in the air, someone notes where they're coming from. It is then announced over the PA that "Will the team(s) in Section XYZ please stop throwing paper airplanes and clean up the mess" down here. (Team numbers used if they can be determined from long range.) Send a couple crowd-control volunteers (or venue staff) up there.

The Teeth: If a second announcement is needed, invoke the Civility Rule (last year's T6). After that... well, I can't say that I've ever seen that rule be enforced past the discussion stage, because usually the discussion clears it up.

That might be a bit drastic, but it should work...

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

While I believe you are right that is could be enforced, I do not believe it will be enforced.

... and if they could have used T6 before, and chose not to, what makes you believe that they will use T6 now? (... mumbles something about expecting a different result from the same action...)


FIRST has never enforced, nor had punishment for, rules in the stands. I do not believe they will start now. Hence my suggestion of giving those that would fly paper airplanes a place to do it without disturbing the others.


If they truly wanted to enforce the rules in the stands, then I believe they should start with sending the Chairman's award judges out into the stands and see who is breaking the rules that have 'no penalty' (such as saving seats) and disqualifying those that do break the rules from winning chairman's.

again JMHO

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

A half a dozen people with binoculars, plus a few carefully pointed video cameras should allow for enforcement. if Frank is reading this thread, I really urge him to think about and publicize some mechanism for enforcement so folks take it more seriously.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

In addition to my worry of whether and how HQ will attempt to enforce the rule, I'm also concerned with the difficulty of actually determining origin. This would depend heavily on the lighting at the time and how many people are still throwing. Having been on the receiving end of some absolutely unreal "extreme littering" events on Einstein before, it's downright overwhelming in the dark. And from the stands in the dark, particularly with the critical mass of "everyone's doing it", I expect it feels pretty invincible to the participants. The number of crowd controllers it'd take wouldn't be as many as for saving seats, but it wouldn't be a trivial commitment if teams ignore it as much as they do saving seats. (I hope the visibility of airplanes would stop that, but I've been hoping that for a long time.) On the other hand, if those crowd controllers are judges, the ratio might drop some...

In addition to announcing and enforcing the rule, I still suggest some carrot with this ostensible stick. In addition to the logistical difficulties of that stick, I've found very little that compares to taking kids who've run on full afterburner for days and just had awesome, life-changing runs at key positions in qual/elim matches...and then boxing them into seats for hours to squint down at long speeches and scattered matches. For a number of personalities/temperaments I've worked with over the years, everything seems boring at that point. I've seen kids who would normally play video games or chat for hours go absolutely stir crazy. Sanctioning a specific event that lets people walk off some energy and try a paper airplane contest would seem nice. And perhaps more importantly, let us know when it is, so we know how long we can walk around without missing anything even if we don't go to the contest. (Schedule control and announcing has gotten better lately, but I always want to throw this in.)

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

There was a paper airplane that flew across Einstein during a match, and missed falling on the field by only a few feet of elevation: https://youtu.be/4d2VW_mkJ3c?t=54

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

While I certainly am aware of the difference between having a rule and enforcing a rule, this is a definite "phase change". FIRST has for the first time, (as far as I am aware) outlawed throwing paper airplanes (and other things). Assuming that the word gets out (meaning that, in addition to the blog, they provide suitable signage or other warning so that everyone who attends events will have seen), this will probably eliminate about 80-90% of the airplanes, before any active enforcement. If FIRST can find a good corps of enforcers to give first offenders a stern warning, and escort second offenders from the premises, this will very quickly become a "we've always done it this way" rule.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

How about we rely on peer pressure?
If a paper airplane is spotted, everything stops. Speeches stop or matches are stopped and are replayed.
This will lengthen the time everyone is in the stands and no one wants that :rolleyes:
You can't throw a plane without someone noticing and that person will be asked to stop by his/her peers.

It is all enforceable if mentors would be mentors and take responsibility for their team members. Now I am not saying that all mentors don't take responsibility but we have all seen it first hand, where either the mentor/s are either oblivious to what is going on around them, or they just don't think it is their job to monitor the students. I can tell you with absolute certainty that stuff like that won't fly on the team I am a part of.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Several of these predictions are taking me back to the practical question, which is: why do people break these on-paper "stand rules"? This isn't theoretical; we have hard evidence to consider here, if only to demarcate the reasons why it won't apply. (Or my preference, propose ways to ensure it doesn't.)

There is at least one such "stand rule" that's been on the books for well over a decade. We know that ubiquitous self-enforcement of it does not work. We know that peer enforcement does not stop violations. We certainly know that writing it down doesn't end it--I can find this as early as 2003, when the Admin Manual said: "Teams are not allowed to save seating space." This had its own Table of Contents line under GP, one of only 4 topics to do so. It is a longstanding, official, publicized, well-known rule. So far as I know, it was not tacitly much less actively encouraged in the past. Others try to enforce it on these grounds, and yet endemic violations have been routinely bemoaned for over a decade.

This is not to say there wouldn't be more seat saving without these measures--certainly there would be--or that nothing has ever improved the problem. And there are many differences between saving seats and paper airplanes. Tons of differences (some inhibiting and some facilitating); I'm not arguing that. Nor do I wish to shoot down predictions. But I would argue that if, like anything, we find ourselves predicting a new behavior that contradicts longstanding actions on a related one, we at least acknowledge as much and examine theories as to the difference. We're a lot more likely to develop a successful implementation plan for this if we contend with that reality. As much as I'd like to just say that this is a good step, the last thing I want to do is waste the first Champs where this on the books by establishing that the practiced norms don't change much even when it's on the books.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Pun intended?

At our Vex IQ tournaments, we remind coaches that they are responsible for their students. This should go without saying for FRC as well, but might be worth making explicit. Is this communicated to FRC teams currently?

Let's just keep reminding teams about not throwing planes, and let the "tradition" die out over the next few years.

-Mike

Lol, happy accident.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

What is really wrong with seat saving? Does the general population of Chief not care about teams being unable to sit together when pit crews have to sit on the opposite side of the stands if they have to stay in the pits between division elims and Einstein packing up while the stands fill (and their team waits)? Or is the real problem with large swaths of the stands being roped off by a team when only a few members are there?

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

I would take issue with 5 students saving 10 seats each across 5 rows, especially if they are actively preventing people from sitting.

At the same time I have no problem if 5 students are sitting and holding a seat or two next to them, especially if they tell you someone will be coming back, but welcome you to use it until they do.

Both are technically against the rules, but one is far more reasonable, and shows some Gracious Professionalism.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Frank: Target acquired. Section 227, Row 4, Seat 18. Take him out.
*laser pointer appears on teenager's forehead*


Maybe we can ask 254, 971, 1114, and 118 to team up and write a program that can tell where a paper airplane was thrown from based on where it landed. Or we can put big fans between the stadium seats and the fields pointed away so any paper airplanes get pushed back into the crowds.

Laser pointers are against the rules 😝

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Not robot-mounted Class 1 laser pointers that are NOT intended to interfere with drive team vision...;)

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Guess this guy isn't going to be invited :) cool machine though...

Especially combined with this other guy's 30 planes per second launcher -- whoosh!

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Cards, you say...

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

"It will be against the rules to throw things from the stands or bleachers at our events."
I wonder if the beach ball is originated from the floor, into the stands, if that would be permissible.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

What if drive teams accidentally throw stacks of paper into the stands then the people in the stands return it to them in plane form.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

The drive team would probably be awarded a red card.

My point is the rule doesn't have to necessarily rule out beach balls, especially if the beach balls originate from the volunteers on the floor.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Volunteers don't have the authority to modify the rules. Even if the rule didn't apply to the floor, to continue to throw it from the stands would still be against the rules implied in the Blog. Keeping in mind we have not actually seen the 2017 rules. :]

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "it's a venue rule" or "it's an event rule" whenever something was enforced contrary to the Manual, I'd have... several dollars. Some volunteers at some events sure do seem to think they can create rules to supplement or override the Manual.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Say it ain't so Smokey. :] I know of a few of those myself. But. The lead volunteers FTA, Head Ref, LRI, ETC are the final interpreters of the rules. There are occasionally legitimate disagreements in what the rules mean. The lead people have the final say. Sometimes a less than perfect decision is made in the pressure of the moment.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

The real question is whether or not remote operated blimps will be countable as throwing things.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSkvW2uO0DI

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

I'd expect that if a beach ball originated from the stands and gets to the floor, it'd be confiscated. But if the MC, a judge or VIP tossed a beach ball into the stands from the floor during a timeout or field reset, there wouldn't be too much fuss.

If the rule means that beach balls are no more, that's a small price to pay to get rid of the paper airplanes. And to everyone that threw a paper airplane in the past: that is why we can't have nice things.

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

We don't want this happening again:

Re: [FRC BLOG] This isn't a Robot, Housing, and Throwing Things
 

Here's another case, one of the RPI blimps stuck in the Georgia Dome
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/a...achmentid=9011