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MikLast 07-01-2017 12:46

Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
When the gear is being loaded by the robot on the peg, is the Pilot able to move the Lift up? The idea is to move the lift up a bit to center it where the robot holds the gear to put the gear on the peg easier. From my readings i see nothing explicitly forbidding it, but im still not sure its fully okay. Is there any rules that forbid this?

6401mark 07-01-2017 14:25

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
In the field videos they made it a huge deal that safety was a priority for human players on the field. I can't imagine they would allow for something like that if the robot and the human are in contact

RoboChair 07-01-2017 14:45

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
You are correct, as written now it is allowable to move the lift while a robot interacts with it.

Aidan H. 07-01-2017 16:31

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?

MikLast 07-01-2017 17:01

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
That thought also came to us as one of our groups talked about the idea. Personally this may be something that does need to be fixed, this could easily mess up someones robot (or a person if things go really wrong) if the LIFT gets yanked away.

Cal578 07-01-2017 19:47

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

Ginger Bread 07-01-2017 21:06

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
I was also having this question and am very happy that there's nothing specifically against it :D

engunneer 07-01-2017 21:26

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal578 (Post 1626739)
What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

GeeTwo 07-01-2017 23:11

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Another thing to note is that the "peg" that the robot must place the gear upon is actually a spring, not a solid item. It can presumably be easily deflected up/down/left/right. 3946 currently intends to exploit this feature in our gear hanger.

TDav540 07-01-2017 23:16

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1626834)
at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

If the pilot isn't paying attention, they shouldn't be the pilot.

Aur0r4 08-01-2017 00:42

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
I agree, while FIRST may (and will likely) issue some kind of overly conservative clarification on this issue (and it is a very good question), they idea that this is somehow dangerous is a massive stretch.

I'm a huge proponent of industrial safety and appreciate FIRST having to blend in real world industrial safety standards due to the fact that we are dealing with machines.....they aren't remote controlled bulldozers or mining equipment.

Much of what we must abide by likely originates from insurance requirements, not any eminent source of harm.

andrewytiger 08-01-2017 11:50

Question about the lift
 
Is the pilot allowed to raise the lift to a preferred height before the gear is hooked onto the lift? So could we lift the peg to 2ft for example and then hook the gear to it?

guniv 08-01-2017 11:52

Re: Question about the lift
 
Our team is wondering this too. I can't find anything that says a pilot can't operate a lift unless a gear is on it.

nickn_01 08-01-2017 19:52

There is no rule that prohibits the pilot from doing so. Which is something to take advantage of as you can have your gear in a fixed position to simplify the mechanism.


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nixiebunny 08-01-2017 21:09

Re: Question about the lift
 
There are no words that I have seen in the rules, prohibiting pilots from operating the lift at any time. However, designing your robot to require pilot cooperation to dispense a gear will reduce the game playing speed. What if the pilot is doing something else at the time?

wjd13 09-01-2017 07:37

Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Hey CD,

Quick question: I've been looking at the rules, and I don't see anything explicitly forbidding the pilot lifting the gear out of the robot once it has the gear hooked. Is this allowed?

Boltman 09-01-2017 07:41

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
As of now yes

wjd13 09-01-2017 07:44

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Do you expect that to be changed?

Boltman 09-01-2017 07:45

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
no

dradel 09-01-2017 07:46

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
I'm sure that will be one of the first questions asked when Q&A opens

RobotsQ 09-01-2017 08:52

This is easily the fourth thread of the exact same topic, try reading through the other three.

I'll give you a synthesis: There is nothing explicitly forbidding it right now, but Q+A opens on Wednesday and due to FIRST's cautious nature and requirement to stick closely to industry standards on machine-human interaction (for insurance reasons) it is more likely than not that this will be outlawed in the coming days. At the very least we'll be getting a clarification.


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Chris is me 09-01-2017 09:08

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
I'm of the opinion this is going to stay legal. There's a reason the scoring peg is a spring and that it is indirectly operated by a human several feet away from the robot.

Kevin Thorp 09-01-2017 09:41

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Time is critical. It might take a couple of seconds for the human to verify the gear is loaded, then lift it out of the way. The robot is idle during this time.

If you can just slam the gear on the peg and instantly drive away, you can save those precious seconds.

dirtbikerxz 09-01-2017 09:55

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Thorp (Post 1627770)
Time is critical. It might take a couple of seconds for the human to verify the gear is loaded, then lift it out of the way. The robot is idle during this time.

If you can just slam the gear on the peg and instantly drive away, you can save those precious seconds.

Not necessarily. Our team was talking about this, if we have some sort of visual indicator on top of the bot (like a led ring) that turns green as soon as the gear is good to go, the pilot yanks up hard, and the bot drives away. Shouldn't take more than an extra second than just leaving the gear there.

fearxzombie 09-01-2017 10:18

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
I was going to ask the same thing, I was thinking it would not work due to physical constraints. But if you can figure it out, by all means use it as an advantage.
:)



~Gabriel McMillan
FRC 5495
Aluminati
CAD and Building

JesseK 09-01-2017 11:19

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
I expect it to be made illegal, or the Pilots will have to wear gloves. There is a non-zero probability that a robot will yank the post down while being hit by a defender, giving a pilot rope burn.

It seems like pilots will want gloves regardless - accidents happen.

If the rules change, how they constitute that a robot has backed 'far enough' away to allow for safe retrieval will inevitably be the next topic of discussion - so hopefully a few Q&A posts will have some sort of multi-faceted question.

engunneer 09-01-2017 11:24

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1627848)
I expect it to be made illegal, or the Pilots will have to wear gloves. There is a non-zero probability that a robot will yank the post down while being hit by a defender, giving a pilot rope burn.

It seems like pilots will want gloves regardless - accidents happen.

If the rules change, how they constitute that a robot has backed 'far enough' away to allow for safe retrieval will inevitably be the next topic of discussion - so hopefully a few Q&A posts will have some sort of multi-faceted question.

the lift has a handle, so rope burn should not be a concern for the Pilot.

Ari423 09-01-2017 11:54

Re: Lifting Gear Out of Robot
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1627848)
I expect it to be made illegal, or the Pilots will have to wear gloves. There is a non-zero probability that a robot will yank the post down while being hit by a defender, giving a pilot rope burn.

Also the "post" is actually a spring. So it will be significantly harder to "yank the post down" than you might expect.

I don't see why this would be made illegal. Whether it's a good strategy or not is a different question.

NAP17 09-01-2017 19:12

Rope Rules
 
When a robot is putting a gear on the spring can the pilot pull the rope to the ship at the same time to help the robot?

This is for strategy

NShep98 09-01-2017 19:19

Re: Rope Rules
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NAP17 (Post 1628217)
When a robot is putting a gear on the spring can the pilot pull the rope to the ship at the same time to help the robot?

This is for strategy

Quote:

S07. Keep your hands “inside” the vehicle at all times. During the MATCH, the PILOT may neither
A. contact ROTORS,
B. contact DAVITS, nor
C. reach outside any PORT.
Violation: YELLOW CARD
No

Kevin Sevcik 09-01-2017 19:29

Re: Rope Rules
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NAP17 (Post 1628217)
When a robot is putting a gear on the spring can the pilot pull the rope to the ship at the same time to help the robot?

This is for strategy

Are you talking about the rope/handle that pulls up the lift? Or the rope that the robot eventually climbs?

PILOTS aren't allowed to release the climbing ROPE until the last 30 seconds, and even after that, can't reach through the PORT to touch the ROPE.

On the other hand, PILOTS are allowed to operate the LIFT with its rope handle. There's some debate over whether they can move a LIFT while a robot is interacting with it. There won't be a definitive answer on that until there's an official Q&A on it.

Karthik 09-01-2017 22:26

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.

niklas674 09-01-2017 22:31

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1628327)
I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.

Thank you.

rich2202 10-01-2017 18:00

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
I initially thought about needing Pilot interaction to help get the gear from the robot but....

There are 2 pilots, and 3 gear stations. During autonomous, all 3 robots will be dropping off gears. Requiring 2 pilots to manage 3 robots is asking for failure.

Safest option is to be the robot that does not require Pilot interaction.

RobotsQ 10-01-2017 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1628327)
I've merged the three threads discussing this same topic.



Thank you so much. My first reply seems a bit pretentious now tho, have to edit😊


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MikLast 10-01-2017 18:36

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
With Team update #1 posted, this idea is still legal.

FalconCHief 11-01-2017 07:23

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan H. (Post 1626583)
I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?


The actual quote from the video is: "Once the pilot determines the gear is safely on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot." It is a suttle difference but it is there. This quote would indicate to me that the pilot may NOT lift the peg UNTIL the gear safely on it. I don't think anyone can say the gear is safely ON THE PEG if the robot is still trying to manuvre the gear to the peg. AKA: The pilot may NOT lift the peg until the robot has placed the gear on the peg. This does not however clarify if the robot must MOVE from the peg once the gear is 'on' it. It does say "up and way from the ROBOT." This leads me to believe the robot COULD still be in contact with the gear but not moving, while it is on the peg and still be lifted by the pilot.

FalconCHief 11-01-2017 07:29

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Also in the airship video the qote is: "Once a gear is on a peg, a pilot operates the lift". Again this would tell me the pilot may NOT operate the lift BEFORE the gear is on it (to assist the robot to place the gear).
@ 2:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1mM_amcQZk


I would NOT design a robot that requires piolt assistance to place the gear.

GeeTwo 11-01-2017 07:50

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Reminder to all that video commentary is not rules, and is not even blue boxes. Trying to read additional details into them is pointless.

What's the big deal anyway? The target area is over 6 inches in diameter. Note that it is impossible to get the peg into the hole in the gear designed for the axle; it is too big. You have to use one of the five sector holes. The peg is a spring; minor deflection of the peg can be achieved by pushing it one way or the other.

Siri 11-01-2017 07:55

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1628848)
I initially thought about needing Pilot interaction to help get the gear from the robot but....

There are 2 pilots, and 3 gear stations. During autonomous, all 3 robots will be dropping off gears. Requiring 2 pilots to manage 3 robots is asking for failure.

Safest option is to be the robot that does not require Pilot interaction.

This applies mostly if you plan to move again after your autonomous drop off. You can't actually score the auton points without the pilots getting all three gears, so unless all 3 robots are doing something afterward (which is unlikely for a number of reasons including the benefit of staggered shooting), no one is taking a loss. This is even less likely in teleop, both because the robots will get and will likely want to be staggered and because the last thing you want to do is leave an unattended gear for a defender to hit (if I were a good defender in teleop, I might make a habit of driving in there when a gear robot leaves just for good measure if this became a common practice).

Also consider for your own team's design that a pilot looking down at the peg and gear could well know with more certainty and speed that it's ready to lift before the robot/driver does. Because the other last thing you want to do is accidentally drop the gear either because you can't tell from that distance or because the pilot--trying to go as fast as possible and who may not be on your team--thinks they should raise the peg on you. In overall terms of safety against dropping the gear, it is by far safer to have the guy lifting it up take it rather than the guy dropping it. Make it easy for them.

There are ways to mitigate all of these of course, and it depends on what level you're playing at. But for most teams, think I like my general philosophy in this situation: minimize moving parts and their movers, and the one who does move should be the one advancing the situation (taking possession of the gear, so the pilot). It's like 2012 bridge balancing: one guy gets it in place, the other one finishes, so both are in agreement. Don't create a situation in which you want both moving during the same "step"--something will fall.

And now we wait for the Q&A.

FalconCHief 11-01-2017 09:19

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
According to one of our coaches this was in the first update:

The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

FrankJ 11-01-2017 09:45

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
A couple of observations:

Presumably you will try for one of the pie sections on the gear. The actual pie holes on the gear you are aiming for is a lot smaller than 6 inches.

The lift is constrained to vertical movements. The pilots are constraint to staying in the airship & only handling the lift rope when the lift is down. Very little danger with both the pilot and the robot interacting with the lift at the same time. Any rule effecting this will be difficult for the referees to judge. Rules are already there to prevent you from pulling the robot into the airship.

Hopefully the GDC will clarify this. Otherwise the head rererree can at the pre-match driver's meeting.

iyportne 11-01-2017 13:37

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
When challenging what was in the mind of the game designers one can look at the "teamversion" of the game elements that they offer to practice on. In this case they are depicting peg assembly as a stationary target, not a movable slide, hinting that is the indented transaction. Perhaps this is insight to what FIRST will rule. Just sayin'

see page 6 https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amVersions.pdf

VIKotic Dave 11-01-2017 13:40

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
See Q1 in the FIRST Q&A.

Bkeeneykid 11-01-2017 13:41

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Q&A Question #1 answers this: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/1

Quote:

Yes. There are no restrictions on a PILOT operating the LIFT while a ROBOT is placing a GEAR.

Fusion_Clint 11-01-2017 13:41

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Is the pilot able to operate the lift if the peg is through the gear, but the gear is supported by the robot. In this situation the peg would not touch the robot.
asked an hour ago by FRC 2875 GEAR LIFT


Answer

Yes. There are no restrictions on a PILOT operating the LIFT while a ROBOT is placing a GEAR.

iyportne 11-01-2017 13:49

Re: Moving lift to put gear on peg easier
 
Got it...post missed answer by 27 minutes...


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