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New size/bumper rules that every team should know
Two subtle changes to the rules that have huge impact, and the potential to really hurt some teams if they're not careful.
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However, bumpers must still be removed for inspection so that the robot can be weighed. So don't make them 100% integral to the frame just yet. The second, more subtle change. For the first time since 2009, the robot is limited to the same size in its starting configuration as during the rest of the match. However, the rule is not the same as the 2009 rule. 2009 was frame perimeter based, and banned any extension over the starting perimeter. If you chose to be small, you were stuck small. This year, however, it's a fixed maximum size. If you want to reach over the bumper to expand your intake, grab a rope, or anything else, you can do this, but only if your base/frame perimeter is smaller than the maximum size. Say, for example, you choose the 36"x40"x24" size. A drive base/bumper assembly built at 36"x40" cannot have a drop-down intake of any sort, and will be constrained to a bumper-cutout intake with 6" on each side (another change, down from 8"). However, if the team instead builds their bot 36"x30", they have a full 10 inches outside of the bumper to extend and build anything they want. This mechanism must still retract due to <R02> for the start of the match. Plan your drive base carefully. Bigger is not necessarily better, and may lock you into a design and prevent you from duplicating something cool you see at a first event. |
Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
Whether or not the bumpers are included in the perimeter is contrasted in R01 and R03. Has FIRST said that the bumpers are included in the perimeter? If so, please post the link.
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Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
<R01> and <R03> do not conflict. <R01> states that the robot must have a FRAME PERIMETER, meeting the fixed, non-actuating, etc. requirements we all know and love. The FRAME PERIMETER is referenced in <G09>, which deals with interactions between robots, <R02>, which states that everything except the bumpers must start (but not necessarily end) the match inside the frame perimeter, and repeatedly throughout the bumper rules, which deal with how the bumpers must attach to and interact with the FRAME PERIMETER. However, <R03>, which deals with the actual size limit of the robot, clearly includes the bumpers in this, and does not reference the FRAME PERIMETER in any way.
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This seems to defeat the purpose of bumpers, at least how they've been used the past few years, doesn't it?
They used to guarantee about 6 inches of distance between "internal components" of robots. With this game, everything will always be inside the frame perimeter, but the grace distance that the bumpers used to provide doesn't exist. Teams will have to be careful to either build robustly, or be well inside the bumpers. Bumpers may or not actually provide any protection. This makes the real volume less than the stated volume. |
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At the start of the match all parts of the robot except the bumpers must be within the frame perimeter (which does not include the bumpers) as typical in FRC. The grace distance is still there. The only things that are vulnerable are frame perimeter extensions that deploy after the match starts as usual. |
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Two minimalist, full size, box-on wheels robots will still collide bumper to bumper, with 6" between the internal parts of their robots. Of course, now they could hypothetically expand into the 3 inch region directly above, but not beyond, the bumper in any direction, but they don't gain much by doing this. On the more extreme end, teams that voluntarily build small can reach beyond the bumper. The rules of the past few bumper games still apply -- you put mechanisms beyond your frame perimeter at your own risk, and are penalized if one of them reaches into the protected frame perimeter of another team. It's dramatically different in terms of the size you should build your robot if you want to expand though, and that's why I brought this up. I expect some teams to build very, very small bases which expand a great length in multiple directions, perhaps even with drivetrain components on the expanding parts, and don't want teams to be caught off-guard that this is not only legal, but that their "standard" drive base designs may prevent them from adding these features. |
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I'm afraid there's going to be several teams unable to compete at their event because they show up with bumpers outside the sizing box and have no way of cutting 5-6" both directions. Glad I'm not the LRI that has to tell them that.
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Not sure if this is the right place but would these bumpers be legal?
http://imgur.com/aK9ofzy The gap is 13 inches but there will be a beam above the bumpers connecting the two sides so that the frame is technically all closed. edit the two shorter sides are both 6 inches. |
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What is your Frame Perimeter? Read R01, particularly the blue box. Now read R22, including the blue box, and R29G. I'll explain in the spoiler, but I'd like you to read those rules first. Spoiler for The Answer:
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This rule also makes it so the square KOP chassis can not be legal if it is made to the dimensions in the instructions
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The rules do not say how much of the bumper has to touch the frame vertically, only how much horizontal gaps you can have. (I believe, I'm not a rules expert, but read through the rules twice. Think that was the same as last year.)
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I'm still a little unclear on the frame permiter. If you choose the 30x32x36 size, does that mean you need to account for the ~3.5" of bumper on each side, leaving you with a max frame size of 23x25?? That seems a bit ridiculous. Granted it's probably doable, but I can't imagine FIRST having that tight size constraints
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I think the fact that the square configuration of the KOP chassis is illegal needs to be emphasized. I imagine some teams will assume that all of the configurations would be legal becasuse it comes with the kit.
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the KOP frame has always been bigger than legal, so the team can decide which way is front and so the team can decide where to cut. I'm far more worried (as an inspector) about teams not realizing the bumpers must be inside the size box. But people must also be careful that the bumpers are not at the edges of the volume if they need any manipulators to extend beyond them because you cannot exceed the total volume at any point in the game R03. Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of two volumes: A. 36in.by40in.by24in.tall(~91cmby101cmby60cmtall). B. 30in.by32in.by36in.tall(~76cmby81cmby91cmtall). The ROBOT must remain constrained to the maximum inspected volume at all times during the MATCH (i.e. A ROBOT may not switch between volume A and volume B without being re- inspected). Sorry I'm not better at quoting things properly, but this is a big change that bears discussion. |
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A frame perimeter of 23" x 25" seems tiny! Any ideas of how to make the most of vertical space?
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When I first read the rule with the green background, it made no mention of bumpers.
However upon further searching I found this: R03 Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of two volumes: ... I'm with Blake on this issue and think it needs to be explained by FIRST as its hard to believe they really want us to build small robots with a frame perimeter of 120 inches. Dave |
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The wcp DS west coast gearbox is about 12" end of axle to end of motor. Two of those sitting exactly next to each other already puts you outside the the frame permiter and into your bumpers if you go with the tall configuration if you put the gearboxes on the long side. Idk, I think that rule is a little ridiculous. But if that's how it's intended to be, then everyone has the same rule and we can't say it's unfair, so we will work around it.
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Kind of makes sense that they released these for 2017, huh?
http://www.wcproducts.net/wcp-ds-flipped |
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Speaking of small robots. The 2014 rules called for a 112 in frame perimeter. That was the year of the Frisbee. One of the better games by most opinions.
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I think there needs to be a sawzall packed in the inspector's crate.
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True.
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lets not forget about the FIRST iron ons we have to put on the bumpers.....
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I noticed this, too. There will be a LOT of balls on the field, so a low profile robot will be beneficial in navigating through all the balls. Our team will likely have bumpers as low as possible. An added benefit of low profile is more volume up top to use for storage, etc. Vince |
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Was anyone else surprised by the size of the fuel? A 5in wiffle ball is pretty big.
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Mounting all the large electronics vertically and grouping by power and control sections is how we freed up most of our space. RoboRio, radio, signal light, and VRM went on one side of the bot, battery, PDP, and main breaker went on the other. All were mounted on vertical boards from the chassis bottom to our top frame rails, so 7"-8" of space. |
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Very frustrated with FIRST right now. We choose to get the Andmark base kit with our kit of parts. If we try and use volume choice B with the 36" height we cannot use the andymark kit. Basically it invalidates a $450 part. Look at the wheel spacing, size of wheels, and gear belts and the locations for pre drilled holes. Unless I am incorrect the only sizing you can use and make that chase kit work is Volume A
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Theoretically, doesn't this mean the floor is the bumper zone's lower limit, and therefore a team could have bumpers that drag along the carpet? Also, for some reason, maybe due to defense, a robot with very low clearance due to bumpers gets popped up off their wheels and lands on a game piece could become stuck very easily. Am I seeing this right? |
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Here's a couple helpful ways to make sure your bumpers are put together well, which will make it possible to get all the space out of them that you'll need:http://www.robopromo.com/category_s/1826.htm Another thing mentioned that is very important is an easy way to take the bumpers on and off. We came up with a solution for this last year and here's a link to that video: http://www.robopromo.com/category_s/1832.htm There's lots of videos that'll help you construct good bumpers if you check out Bumper School |
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