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-   -   New size/bumper rules that every team should know (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153134)

Joe G. 07-01-2017 14:40

New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Two subtle changes to the rules that have huge impact, and the potential to really hurt some teams if they're not careful.

Quote:

<R03>Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of
two volumes:
A. 36 in. by 40 in. by 24 in. tall (~91 cm by 101 cm by 60 cm tall).
B. 30 in. by 32 in. by 36 in. tall (~76 cm by 81 cm by 91 cm tall).
The ROBOT must remain constrained to the maximum inspected volume at all times during the
MATCH (i.e. A ROBOT may not switch between volume A and volume B without being reinspected).
The first big change: Bumpers are now included in the robot size limit. This means that your physical robot must take into account the ~3.25" on each side a bumper will take up, but also take into account the fact that bumpers are soft, squishy, and tend to shift, and are probably not as dimensionally reliable as what we're used to using as a frame perimeter defining part. Leave extra room, and don't forget the bumper size entirely.

However, bumpers must still be removed for inspection so that the robot can be weighed. So don't make them 100% integral to the frame just yet.

The second, more subtle change. For the first time since 2009, the robot is limited to the same size in its starting configuration as during the rest of the match. However, the rule is not the same as the 2009 rule. 2009 was frame perimeter based, and banned any extension over the starting perimeter. If you chose to be small, you were stuck small.

This year, however, it's a fixed maximum size. If you want to reach over the bumper to expand your intake, grab a rope, or anything else, you can do this, but only if your base/frame perimeter is smaller than the maximum size. Say, for example, you choose the 36"x40"x24" size. A drive base/bumper assembly built at 36"x40" cannot have a drop-down intake of any sort, and will be constrained to a bumper-cutout intake with 6" on each side (another change, down from 8"). However, if the team instead builds their bot 36"x30", they have a full 10 inches outside of the bumper to extend and build anything they want. This mechanism must still retract due to <R02> for the start of the match.

Plan your drive base carefully. Bigger is not necessarily better, and may lock you into a design and prevent you from duplicating something cool you see at a first event.

aguzauckas 07-01-2017 14:53

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Whether or not the bumpers are included in the perimeter is contrasted in R01 and R03. Has FIRST said that the bumpers are included in the perimeter? If so, please post the link.

Joe G. 07-01-2017 14:58

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
<R01> and <R03> do not conflict. <R01> states that the robot must have a FRAME PERIMETER, meeting the fixed, non-actuating, etc. requirements we all know and love. The FRAME PERIMETER is referenced in <G09>, which deals with interactions between robots, <R02>, which states that everything except the bumpers must start (but not necessarily end) the match inside the frame perimeter, and repeatedly throughout the bumper rules, which deal with how the bumpers must attach to and interact with the FRAME PERIMETER. However, <R03>, which deals with the actual size limit of the robot, clearly includes the bumpers in this, and does not reference the FRAME PERIMETER in any way.

mman1506 07-01-2017 14:58

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aguzauckas (Post 1626525)
Whether or not the bumpers are included in the perimeter is contrasted in R01 and R03. Has FIRST said that the bumpers are included in the perimeter? If so, please post the link.

I believe the frame perimeter rules are there to help define the bumper rules (I.E if you have a V robot frame you don't need to put bumpers inside the V) and to define the starting configuration. There are no frame perimeter limits only volume limits.

Rick 07-01-2017 15:06

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe G. (Post 1626513)
Two subtle changes to the rules that have huge impact, and the potential to really hurt some teams if they're not careful.

This is immediately what I thought of as well. The last 4 seasons have had very different bumper and frame perimeter rules - FIRST and the GDC should highlight this subtle (but major) change as much as they can over the next 10 days or so.

NShep98 07-01-2017 15:29

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

R22. ROBOTS are required to use BUMPERS to protect all outside corners of the FRAME
PERIMETER. For adequate protection, at least 6 in. (~16 cm) of BUMPER must be placed on
each side of each outside corner (see Figure 8-1). If a FRAME PERIMETER side is shorter than
6 in. (~16 cm)
This is reduced from 2016's 8 inches.

Harshizzle 07-01-2017 16:11

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
This seems to defeat the purpose of bumpers, at least how they've been used the past few years, doesn't it?

They used to guarantee about 6 inches of distance between "internal components" of robots. With this game, everything will always be inside the frame perimeter, but the grace distance that the bumpers used to provide doesn't exist. Teams will have to be careful to either build robustly, or be well inside the bumpers.

Bumpers may or not actually provide any protection.

This makes the real volume less than the stated volume.

mman1506 07-01-2017 16:17

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harshizzle (Post 1626572)
This seems to defeat the purpose of bumpers, at least how they've been used the past few years, doesn't it?

They used to guarantee about 6 inches of distance between "internal components" of robots. With this game, everything will always be inside the frame perimeter, but the grace distance that the bumpers used to provide doesn't exist. Teams will have to be careful to either build robustly, or be well inside the bumpers.

Bumpers may or not actually provide any protection.

This makes the real volume less than the stated volume.

I'm not sure I see your point...
At the start of the match all parts of the robot except the bumpers must be within the frame perimeter (which does not include the bumpers) as typical in FRC. The grace distance is still there. The only things that are vulnerable are frame perimeter extensions that deploy after the match starts as usual.

Joe G. 07-01-2017 16:22

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harshizzle (Post 1626572)
This seems to defeat the purpose of bumpers, at least how they've been used the past few years, doesn't it?

They used to guarantee about 6 inches of distance between "internal components" of robots. With this game, everything will always be inside the frame perimeter, but the grace distance that the bumpers used to provide doesn't exist. Teams will have to be careful to either build robustly, or be well inside the bumpers.

Bumpers may or not actually provide any protection.

This makes the real volume less than the stated volume.

It doesn't seem very different to me in terms of protection.

Two minimalist, full size, box-on wheels robots will still collide bumper to bumper, with 6" between the internal parts of their robots. Of course, now they could hypothetically expand into the 3 inch region directly above, but not beyond, the bumper in any direction, but they don't gain much by doing this. On the more extreme end, teams that voluntarily build small can reach beyond the bumper. The rules of the past few bumper games still apply -- you put mechanisms beyond your frame perimeter at your own risk, and are penalized if one of them reaches into the protected frame perimeter of another team.

It's dramatically different in terms of the size you should build your robot if you want to expand though, and that's why I brought this up. I expect some teams to build very, very small bases which expand a great length in multiple directions, perhaps even with drivetrain components on the expanding parts, and don't want teams to be caught off-guard that this is not only legal, but that their "standard" drive base designs may prevent them from adding these features.

Harshizzle 07-01-2017 16:45

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626576)
I'm not sure I see your point...
At the start of the match all parts of the robot except the bumpers must be within the frame perimeter (which does not include the bumpers) as typical in FRC. The grace distance is still there. The only things that are vulnerable are frame perimeter extensions that deploy after the match starts as usual.

Oh whoops, I feel silly, I misread the rules on it. :(

BBaltrusch 07-01-2017 17:57

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
I'm afraid there's going to be several teams unable to compete at their event because they show up with bumpers outside the sizing box and have no way of cutting 5-6" both directions. Glad I'm not the LRI that has to tell them that.

juju_beans 07-01-2017 18:02

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Not sure if this is the right place but would these bumpers be legal?

http://imgur.com/aK9ofzy

The gap is 13 inches but there will be a beam above the bumpers connecting the two sides so that the frame is technically all closed.

edit the two shorter sides are both 6 inches.

NShep98 07-01-2017 18:09

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by juju_beans (Post 1626647)
Not sure if this is the right place but would these bumpers be legal?

http://imgur.com/aK9ofzy

The gap is 13 inches but there will be a beam above the bumpers connecting the two sides so that the frame is technically all closed.

edit the two shorter sides are both 6 inches.

That would not be legal because the frame perimeter is measured as a convex polygon wrapping around the robot, so the two pieces pointing inward would not be considered bumpers.

EricH 07-01-2017 18:10

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by juju_beans (Post 1626647)
Not sure if this is the right place but would these bumpers be legal?

http://imgur.com/aK9ofzy

The gap is 13 inches but there will be a beam above the bumpers connecting the two sides so that the frame is technically all closed.

edit the two shorter sides are both 6 inches.

Before I answer...
What is your Frame Perimeter? Read R01, particularly the blue box. Now read R22, including the blue box, and R29G. I'll explain in the spoiler, but I'd like you to read those rules first.



Spoiler for The Answer:
Your frame perimeter is a convex polygon formed by the outside corners of your robot, per R01. R22 says that you have to have 6" of bumper on each side of each corner of the frame perimeter, and R29G says that bumpers have to be mounted to the frame perimeter. The portion of the pictured bumpers inside the points are not protecting 6" of frame perimeter, and they aren't mounted to it. The robot portrayed has a rectangular frame perimeter, and the bumpers aren't going to be legal like that.

Steven Carmain 07-01-2017 18:51

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

R23. BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained between the floor and a virtual horizontal plane 7 in. (~17 cm) above the floor in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.
New this year,the top of the bumpers is 7" this year (think bumpers end up 5.5-6.5" tall with fabric. My memory says last year the bumper zone was 5-12" off the ground.

JR0405 07-01-2017 18:54

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
This rule also makes it so the square KOP chassis can not be legal if it is made to the dimensions in the instructions

Steven Carmain 07-01-2017 19:09

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
The rules do not say how much of the bumper has to touch the frame vertically, only how much horizontal gaps you can have. (I believe, I'm not a rules expert, but read through the rules twice. Think that was the same as last year.)

engunneer 07-01-2017 19:10

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain (Post 1626701)
The rules do not say how much of the bumper has to touch the frame vertically, only how much horizontal gaps you can have. (I believe, I'm not a rules expert, but read through the rules twice. Think that was the same as last year.)

yes, but it must be firmly supported. I would recommend ~1" of vertical contact at a minimum.

traxxasracr1 07-01-2017 19:38

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
I'm still a little unclear on the frame permiter. If you choose the 30x32x36 size, does that mean you need to account for the ~3.5" of bumper on each side, leaving you with a max frame size of 23x25?? That seems a bit ridiculous. Granted it's probably doable, but I can't imagine FIRST having that tight size constraints

Cal578 07-01-2017 19:55

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by traxxasracr1 (Post 1626730)
I'm still a little unclear on the frame permiter. If you choose the 30x32x36 size, does that mean you need to account for the ~3.5" of bumper on each side, leaving you with a max frame size of 23x25?? That seems a bit ridiculous. Granted it's probably doable, but I can't imagine FIRST having that tight size constraints

R03 is very clear that the bumpers are included in the volume limits, and R01 defines the frame perimeter as excluding the bumpers. So yes, you need to account for the bumpers, and the frame would be about 32x25" max for the tall volume, or about 29x33" for the short volume..

Csherm 07-01-2017 20:09

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
I think the fact that the square configuration of the KOP chassis is illegal needs to be emphasized. I imagine some teams will assume that all of the configurations would be legal becasuse it comes with the kit.

engunneer 07-01-2017 20:25

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Csherm (Post 1626765)
I think the fact that the square configuration of the KOP chassis is illegal needs to be emphasized. I imagine some teams will assume that all of the configurations would be legal becasuse it comes with the kit.

the KOP frame has always been bigger than legal, so the team can decide which way is front and so the team can decide where to cut. I'm far more worried (as an inspector) about teams not realizing the bumpers must be inside the size box.

Gearheads1 07-01-2017 21:47

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote from engunneer:
the KOP frame has always been bigger than legal, so the team can decide which way is front and so the team can decide where to cut. I'm far more worried (as an inspector) about teams not realizing the bumpers must be inside the size box.


But people must also be careful that the bumpers are not at the edges of the volume if they need any manipulators to extend beyond them because you cannot exceed the total volume at any point in the game

R03. Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of two volumes:
A. 36in.by40in.by24in.tall(~91cmby101cmby60cmtall).
B. 30in.by32in.by36in.tall(~76cmby81cmby91cmtall).
The ROBOT must remain constrained to the maximum inspected volume at all times during the MATCH (i.e. A ROBOT may not switch between volume A and volume B without being re- inspected).

Sorry I'm not better at quoting things properly, but this is a big change that bears discussion.

GeeTwo 07-01-2017 23:22

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain (Post 1626682)
New this year,the top of the bumpers is 7" this year (think bumpers end up 5.5-6.5" tall with fabric. My memory says last year the bumper zone was 5-12" off the ground.

Yes, last year's was the highest bumper zone since our rookie year (2012), and this year is the lowest since then. Fortunately, there are no scoring platforms or defenses or anything but flat carpet to drive over.

Munchskull 08-01-2017 00:30

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
A frame perimeter of 23" x 25" seems tiny! Any ideas of how to make the most of vertical space?

BryceKarlins 08-01-2017 00:52

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain (Post 1626682)
New this year,the top of the bumpers is 7" this year (think bumpers end up 5.5-6.5" tall with fabric. My memory says last year the bumper zone was 5-12" off the ground.

That was mostly because robots had to be built tall to get over obstacles. Bumper zone is a rule that changes a lot year to year.

DaveL 08-01-2017 01:58

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
When I first read the rule with the green background, it made no mention of bumpers.

However upon further searching I found this:

R03
Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of two volumes: ...

I'm with Blake on this issue and think it needs to be explained by FIRST as its hard to believe they really want us to build small robots with a frame perimeter of 120 inches.

Dave

Chak 08-01-2017 03:40

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveL (Post 1627033)
I'm with Blake on this issue and think it needs to be explained by FIRST as its hard to believe they really want us to build small robots with a frame perimeter of 120 inches.

I thought the robots looked a little small in the reveal video...:(

traxxasracr1 08-01-2017 10:38

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
The wcp DS west coast gearbox is about 12" end of axle to end of motor. Two of those sitting exactly next to each other already puts you outside the the frame permiter and into your bumpers if you go with the tall configuration if you put the gearboxes on the long side. Idk, I think that rule is a little ridiculous. But if that's how it's intended to be, then everyone has the same rule and we can't say it's unfair, so we will work around it.

ToddF 08-01-2017 11:00

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Kind of makes sense that they released these for 2017, huh?

http://www.wcproducts.net/wcp-ds-flipped

Jon Stratis 08-01-2017 12:00

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveL (Post 1627033)
I'm with Blake on this issue and think it needs to be explained by FIRST as its hard to believe they really want us to build small robots with a frame perimeter of 120 inches.

To me, it sounds like reasonable restrictions to make it a good engineering challenge. The game pieces are small this year. Like, really small... I can't remember having one this small before. And there are a lot of them. 600, to be precise. Allowing larger robots means more storage space for game pieces. Smaller robots means the game can playout with game pieces available for everyone, instead of the two robots that hoard everything and shoot them in. Plus, it forces robots to make more trips to shoot, which helps with the requirements for the boiler processing fuel - you would hate to have 300 fuel dumped in 5 seconds before the end of the game and most of it not get counted.

FrankJ 08-01-2017 12:32

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Speaking of small robots. The 2014 rules called for a 112 in frame perimeter. That was the year of the Frisbee. One of the better games by most opinions.

Joe G. 08-01-2017 13:04

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1627174)
Speaking of small robots. The 2014 rules called for a 112 in frame perimeter. That was the year of the Frisbee. One of the better games by most opinions.

2014 (Aerial Assist) and 2013 (Ultimate Ascent) were both 112" perimeter. Additionally, most teams chose to be under 30" tall in Ultimate Ascent, and significantly shorter in Aerial Assist. And both were played with a much bulkier control system. In Steamworks, by comparison, if you choose to have the smaller base, you'd better have a very good reason for the 24"-36" part of your robot, as I can think of numerous advantages to the short/wide configuration.

JB987 08-01-2017 13:32

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddF (Post 1627138)
Kind of makes sense that they released these for 2017, huh?

http://www.wcproducts.net/wcp-ds-flipped

Total coincidence I'm sure ;)

Joe Ross 08-01-2017 13:52

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
I think there needs to be a sawzall packed in the inspector's crate.

Aur0r4 08-01-2017 14:34

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by traxxasracr1 (Post 1626730)
I'm still a little unclear on the frame permiter. If you choose the 30x32x36 size, does that mean you need to account for the ~3.5" of bumper on each side, leaving you with a max frame size of 23x25?? That seems a bit ridiculous. Granted it's probably doable, but I can't imagine FIRST having that tight size constraints

Since frame perimeter no longer matters.....why can't the robot be the full 30x32 above the bumpers?

Joe G. 08-01-2017 14:39

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aur0r4 (Post 1627236)
Since frame perimeter no longer matters.....why can't the robot be the full 30x32 above the bumpers?

Frame perimeter still defines the starting configuration. You could expand into the region above the bumper during the match, but you need to start the match inside the classical frame perimeter.

Aur0r4 08-01-2017 14:40

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
True.

dradel 08-01-2017 15:36

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
lets not forget about the FIRST iron ons we have to put on the bumpers.....

one4robots 08-01-2017 15:59

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain (Post 1626682)
New this year,the top of the bumpers is 7" this year (think bumpers end up 5.5-6.5" tall with fabric. My memory says last year the bumper zone was 5-12" off the ground.

Steve,
I noticed this, too. There will be a LOT of balls on the field, so a low profile robot will be beneficial in navigating through all the balls. Our team will likely have bumpers as low as possible. An added benefit of low profile is more volume up top to use for storage, etc.
Vince

MonroeM 08-01-2017 16:08

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Was anyone else surprised by the size of the fuel? A 5in wiffle ball is pretty big.

Donut 08-01-2017 17:04

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchskull (Post 1626978)
A frame perimeter of 23" x 25" seems tiny! Any ideas of how to make the most of vertical space?

We kept to a 24" x 26" perimeter last season while staying short enough for the low bar, so it is doable. We did strictly defenses but our arm for defense manipulation cut through 13" of our 26" frame, and there was room for a ball manipulator we were working to try to add at our regional.

Mounting all the large electronics vertically and grouping by power and control sections is how we freed up most of our space. RoboRio, radio, signal light, and VRM went on one side of the bot, battery, PDP, and main breaker went on the other. All were mounted on vertical boards from the chassis bottom to our top frame rails, so 7"-8" of space.

mjc49 08-01-2017 17:06

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by one4robots (Post 1627296)
Steve,
I noticed this, too. There will be a LOT of balls on the field, so a low profile robot will be beneficial in navigating through all the balls. Our team will likely have bumpers as low as possible. An added benefit of low profile is more volume up top to use for storage, etc.
Vince

Almost lke a big ball pit where little robots go to play.

NShep98 08-01-2017 17:19

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dradel (Post 1627282)
lets not forget about the FIRST iron ons we have to put on the bumpers.....

Quote:

BUMPER Markings visible when installed on the ROBOT, other than the following, are
prohibited:
...
C. solid white FIRST logos between 4¾ in. (~13 cm) and 5¼ in. wide (~13 cm) (i.e.
comparable to those distributed in the 2017 Kickoff Kit).
Nowhere does it say we have to use those logos. They are simply one of the limited markings allowed to be on them.

PantherRobotics 08-01-2017 19:02

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Very frustrated with FIRST right now. We choose to get the Andmark base kit with our kit of parts. If we try and use volume choice B with the 36" height we cannot use the andymark kit. Basically it invalidates a $450 part. Look at the wheel spacing, size of wheels, and gear belts and the locations for pre drilled holes. Unless I am incorrect the only sizing you can use and make that chase kit work is Volume A

maths222 08-01-2017 19:31

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PantherRobotics (Post 1627422)
Very frustrated with FIRST right now. We choose to get the Andmark base kit with our kit of parts. If we try and use volume choice B with the 36" height we cannot use the andymark kit. Basically it invalidates a $450 part. Look at the wheel spacing, size of wheels, and gear belts and the locations for pre drilled holes. Unless I am incorrect the only sizing you can use and make that chase kit work is Volume A

Unless I am mistaken, it appears that you could build a hybrid of the "Wide" and "Long" configurations, where you cut the inner and outer plates to the "Wide" configuration and cut the end plate and churro to the "Long" configuration. This would give a 23.5"x24.3" base, which is just small enough to allow for bumpers. and still fit within a 30"x32" volume.

Hadi379 08-01-2017 19:59

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by one4robots (Post 1627296)
Steve,
I noticed this, too. There will be a LOT of balls on the field, so a low profile robot will be beneficial in navigating through all the balls. Our team will likely have bumpers as low as possible. An added benefit of low profile is more volume up top to use for storage, etc.
Vince

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain (Post 1626682)
New this year,the top of the bumpers is 7" this year (think bumpers end up 5.5-6.5" tall with fabric. My memory says last year the bumper zone was 5-12" off the ground.

R23. BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained between the floor and a virtual horizontal plane 7 in. (~17 cm) above the floor in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.

Theoretically, doesn't this mean the floor is the bumper zone's lower limit, and therefore a team could have bumpers that drag along the carpet?

Also, for some reason, maybe due to defense, a robot with very low clearance due to bumpers gets popped up off their wheels and lands on a game piece could become stuck very easily.

Am I seeing this right?

engunneer 08-01-2017 20:04

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hadi379 (Post 1627456)
R23. BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained between the floor and a virtual horizontal plane 7 in. (~17 cm) above the floor in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor.

Theoretically, doesn't this mean the floor is the bumper zone's lower limit, and therefore a team could have bumpers that drag along the carpet?

Also, for some reason, maybe due to defense, a robot with very low clearance due to bumpers gets popped up off their wheels and lands on a game piece could become stuck very easily.

Am I seeing this right?

yes, that's how i read it. teams should test how their robot functions in the event it gets stuck on fuel or gears. I was hoping the bumpers could get high enough that a gear passes under , but that's not quite possible.

Munchskull 09-01-2017 00:19

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1627461)
yes, that's how i read it. teams should test how their robot functions in the event it gets stuck on fuel or gears. I was hoping the bumpers could get high enough that a gear passes under , but that's not quite possible.

Go low enough that gears and balls are pushed out of the way.

MattRain 11-01-2017 00:53

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Bumpers ARE included in the Robot Volume.

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate01.pdf

Robopromo 12-01-2017 14:51

Re: New size/bumper rules that every team should know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe G. (Post 1626513)
Two subtle changes to the rules that have huge impact, and the potential to really hurt some teams if they're not careful.



The first big change: Bumpers are now included in the robot size limit. This means that your physical robot must take into account the ~3.25" on each side a bumper will take up, but also take into account the fact that bumpers are soft, squishy, and tend to shift, and are probably not as dimensionally reliable as what we're used to using as a frame perimeter defining part. Leave extra room, and don't forget the bumper size entirely.

However, bumpers must still be removed for inspection so that the robot can be weighed. So don't make them 100% integral to the frame just yet.

The second, more subtle change. For the first time since 2009, the robot is limited to the same size in its starting configuration as during the rest of the match. However, the rule is not the same as the 2009 rule. 2009 was frame perimeter based, and banned any extension over the starting perimeter. If you chose to be small, you were stuck small.

This year, however, it's a fixed maximum size. If you want to reach over the bumper to expand your intake, grab a rope, or anything else, you can do this, but only if your base/frame perimeter is smaller than the maximum size. Say, for example, you choose the 36"x40"x24" size. A drive base/bumper assembly built at 36"x40" cannot have a drop-down intake of any sort, and will be constrained to a bumper-cutout intake with 6" on each side (another change, down from 8"). However, if the team instead builds their bot 36"x30", they have a full 10 inches outside of the bumper to extend and build anything they want. This mechanism must still retract due to <R02> for the start of the match.

Plan your drive base carefully. Bigger is not necessarily better, and may lock you into a design and prevent you from duplicating something cool you see at a first event.


Here's a couple helpful ways to make sure your bumpers are put together well, which will make it possible to get all the space out of them that you'll need:http://www.robopromo.com/category_s/1826.htm

Another thing mentioned that is very important is an easy way to take the bumpers on and off. We came up with a solution for this last year and here's a link to that video: http://www.robopromo.com/category_s/1832.htm

There's lots of videos that'll help you construct good bumpers if you check out Bumper School


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