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-   -   Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153138)

Bennetster 07-01-2017 15:00

Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
I've have been going through the CAD and I can't seem to find any of the internals of the boilers. Does anyone know roughly how many balls each goal can hold without overflow? Was this discussed at New Hampshire field?

icomella 07-01-2017 15:02

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Find the dimensions for the bin that holds the balls after they go through the boiler. That should give you a pretty good idea of how many balls you can insert without overflow.

ATannahill 07-01-2017 15:02

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
I suggest you check this video.

mman1506 07-01-2017 15:03

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
The boiler automatically feeds into loading lanes. The balls are then recycled onto the field

The capacity should be practically infinite.

EricH 07-01-2017 15:08

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by icomella (Post 1626532)
Find the dimensions for the bin that holds the balls after they go through the boiler. That should give you a pretty good idea of how many balls you can insert without overflow.

And FIRST helpfully put the ballcount info into the Manual. 50-60/bin, per 3.11.5.

Eugene Fang 07-01-2017 15:09

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626534)
The capacity should be practically infinite.

What if you score 300 balls in 10 seconds?

smitikshah 07-01-2017 15:12

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
https://youtu.be/bJQ4kMwOGtI?t=1m50s

No specifics, but helpful.

mman1506 07-01-2017 15:16

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Fang (Post 1626539)
What if you score 300 balls in 10 seconds?

According to the manual you'd have to wait about 60 seconds for it to count the fuel. The Fuel would still be sent to the return and overflow bins at the same rate.

Kpchem 07-01-2017 15:26

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626544)
According to the manual you'd have to wait about 60 seconds for it to count the fuel. The Fuel would still be sent to the return and overflow bins at the same rate.

The also talk about the goal overflowing. I am betting that the boiler cannot hold 300 balls, so we need to know how much it can hold so we know to not make our hoppers any larger than that (if the internal capacity is smaller than what we can fit on the robots).

mman1506 07-01-2017 16:04

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpchem (Post 1626546)
The also talk about the goal overflowing. I am betting that the boiler cannot hold 300 balls, so we need to know how much it can hold so we know to not make our hoppers any larger than that (if the internal capacity is smaller than what we can fit on the robots).

From purely speculation I'd bet that the goal can handle at least one bins worth (~50-60) of balls in each goal at a time which seems like a reasonable maximum amount of balls for one robot to hold. From the video the return mechanism looks like it can run at a rate of about 10 balls per second. Considering that fuel that has not be counted after tele op will not be scored It seems like it would be a somewhat poor idea to put in more than it can count in a 10 second period. I can't find mention of capacity outside the team videos so it's probably a good question for the Q&A.

Ari423 07-01-2017 18:58

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626569)
From purely speculation I'd bet that the goal can handle at least one bins worth (~50-60) of balls in each goal at a time which seems like a reasonable maximum amount of balls for one robot to hold. From the video the return mechanism looks like it can run at a rate of about 10 balls per second. Considering that fuel that has not be counted after tele op will not be scored It seems like it would be a somewhat poor idea to put in more than it can count in a 10 second period. I can't find mention of capacity outside the team videos so it's probably a good question for the Q&A.

The manual disagrees with your estimate from the video.
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.11.4 Boiler
A BOILER processes FUEL in to steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL, but actual rate is dependent on the amount and packing of FUEL in the GOALS (i.e. the tighter the packing in a GOAL, the faster the FUEL processing rate).


mman1506 07-01-2017 19:00

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1626689)
The manual disagrees with your estimate from the video.

Quote:

A BOILER processes FUEL in to steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL, but actual rate is dependent on the amount and packing of FUEL in the GOALS (i.e. the tighter the packing in a GOAL, the faster the FUEL processing rate).
5*2=10

Jarren Harkema 07-01-2017 19:17

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
We tried to do this and came up with some rough numbers.

The Cylinder itself appears to be ~ 1.78 cubic feet, and the funnel is ~ 1.63. Assuming that the trapezoid below the cylinder is used for processing fuel, thats ~ 3.41 cubic feet total.

The large clear bins used in the videos look like they hold approximately 50 balls, and are 4.24 cubic feet.

Using this, the number of balls that could be held in the boiler stack is approximately 40. If you were shooting at a rate of 6 balls per second non-stop, the boiler stack would fill up in 40 seconds. So you need 240 balls going in non-stop.

Obviously the voids in a rectangular container will be different than the voids in a cylindrical container, but it's close enough for me tonight. There are bigger fish to fry, like figuring out how to flood the boiler in the first place.

Ari423 07-01-2017 19:21

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626692)
5*2=10

Sorry I assumed you were only scoring in one goal at a time. Scoring in both goals at the same time would be an interesting thing to think about. Not sure whether the decreased time is worth the decreased points (unless it's right at the end of the match) but to each his own

Mark McLeod 07-01-2017 22:25

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a photo of the Boiler innards used to index the Fuel and pit the balls out the back.
Back of the boiler photo is in post 23

Boltman 07-01-2017 23:11

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
what happens to fuel in the corners?

Jarren Harkema 07-01-2017 23:19

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 1626874)
Here's a photo of the Boiler innards used to index the Fuel and pit the balls out the back.

My understanding was that there are two separate processors for the high and low efficiency goals. Which one is this? It appears similar to the low goal innards shown in The Boiler video tour, but without a board covering the corners, which could possibly cause fuel to be stuck, thus never counted.

I'm kind of surprised at the lack of information we have been given about the processing rate and total capacity for the high and low goals. The team versions of the models are a poor representation that have no ability for us to simulate either.

Edit: I realize now that there are feet in the background. This has to be the low goal. So my follow up question is, do you have a picture of the innards for the high goal? Thanks!

Jpatterson1710 08-01-2017 01:14

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boltman (Post 1626903)
what happens to fuel in the corners?

Fuel can not fall into the corners...

thatnameistaken 08-01-2017 01:44

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Fang (Post 1626539)
What if you score 300 balls in 10 seconds?

Then your alliance is an absolute monster.

But more to your point, the goals would likely overflow and fuel would fall out, leading to it not being scored. As for the OP, FIRST hasn't specified how many balls this would take anywhere I can find.

Cothron Theiss 08-01-2017 01:45

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpatterson1710 (Post 1627008)
Fuel can not fall into the corners...

Murphy loves statements like these.

Jpatterson1710 08-01-2017 03:55

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1627023)
Murphy loves statements like these.

True:) Although hopefully us field staff would quickly notice the issue, and not only physically repair the game element, but also update the scores within the FMS. Although if the updated scores end up changing the outcome of the match or RP, I think a case could.. maybe.. possibly.. in some potential way be made for a field fault, considering the rate at which fuel is counted is limited.

Undoubtedly this game has a ton of points of failure, and added complexity, but trust the volunteers. This game is going to be great.

fargus111111111 08-01-2017 08:43

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Yeah, I still have not found anything that gives a suggestion on how many balls the lower boiler especially can hold before it overflows. Because it is possible to just dump a load into the lower boiler it appears to me that it might be unable to process the balls fast enough. I do not see it unreasonable to think that 100 balls could fit in a robot and all 100 of those be dumped in 3 seconds or less. By the time the robot pulls away there are still about 85 balls in that goal and I am not sure if it can actually hold that many before they start dumping out onto the floor. It would be nice to get a solid answer from FIRST as to how many balls can the goal hold? (assuming it is not processing them)

Mark McLeod 08-01-2017 10:04

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's the back of the Boiler.
The top balls just roll out through a trough, while the lower balls are sucked out.

Bottom innards photo is in post 15

TerryS 09-01-2017 04:24

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 1626874)
Here's a photo of the Boiler innards used to index the Fuel and pit the balls out the back.
Back of the boiler photo is in post 23

Thanks for this photo. As a rough estimate it looks like the cylinder is about 6 fuels in diameter or 30" and 2 fuels in height or 10". This gives a cylinder volume of about 7,069 cu. in. With a fuel volume of 65 cu. in. and a loose packing factor of 60% that give a capacity of 65. It looks like a 14 slot carousel for a total of 79. Guessing that at least another 20 could stack above the cylinder height without spilling out it looks like the low goal can hold at least 100.

In the boiler field tour video the view into the low goal shows a plate even with the top of the cylinder that covers the corners. It looks like the plate isn't in this photo.

Mark McLeod 09-01-2017 08:27

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryS (Post 1627691)
It looks like the plate isn't in this photo.

I heard that the indexer was installed late, and a few of the supporting pieces weren't quite ready. So I speculate that the cover plate to keep the balls inside the cylinder and out of the corners is just not installed the photo.
The field crew was up late the night before Kickoff assembling.

P.S.
I think the top balls are handled with an indexer identical to the bottom indexer. You can see the base of the top indexer matches the base of the bottom indexer if you zoom in on that photo of the back.

Eric Scheuing 09-01-2017 08:33

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 1627725)
the cover plate to keep the balls inside the cylinder and out of the corners is just not installed the photo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryS (Post 1627691)
Guessing that at least another 20 could stack above the cylinder height without spilling out it looks like the low goal can hold at least 100.

If Mark's statement is true, and there's going to be a piece to keep balls out of the corners, then your estimate of ~100 might even be on the low side!

clockstopped12 09-01-2017 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626544)
According to the manual you'd have to wait about 60 seconds for it to count the fuel. The Fuel would still be sent to the return and overflow bins at the same rate.



I totally missed this, where in the manual is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jarren Harkema 09-01-2017 12:43

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Round 2 of my estimations for the high efficiency boiler goal.

Here is a picture of the cylinder and cone stack pulled directly from the Solidworks field drawing.



I would guess that there is some sort of indexer at the top similar to the bottom feeder, so lets assume that only the cylinder and the cone can hold excess fuel, and the of the innards are used to organize and count fuel.

Boiler Stack Cylinder
Radius: 7.5"
Height: 30"
Volume: 5,301 cubic inches

Boiler Stack Truncated cone
Height: 9"
Upper radius: 10.875"
Lower radius: 7.5"
Volume: 2,413.5 cubic inches

Total Volume: 7714.5 cubic inches

Fuel volume: 65.45 cubic inches

Random close pack of a sphere: ~64%

Total capacity of boiler stack: 75.4 fuel.

The boiler processes fuel in the high efficiency goal at a rate of ~ 5 fuel per second. Which means it would take ~15 seconds to process it all.

Firing 8 fuel a second (A feat I see very few teams accomplishing), a robot would need 25 seconds to fill the high efficiency boiler, firing a total of 200 fuel with 100% accuracy.

The max volume of a robot (34,560 cube in.) would hold 338 fuel, which obviously is not feasible. 200 fuel packed randomly would fill ~ 20,450 cubic inches. This would leave ~ 40% of the total robot volume available for drive train, and shooter.

Leav 09-01-2017 12:51

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema (Post 1627919)
Round 2 of my estimations for the high efficiency boiler goal.

Here is a picture of the cylinder and cone stack pulled directly from the Solidworks field drawing.
.....


I would not feel safe working on the basis of those drawings. they are obviously rough sketches and there is no way to tell how tall the real cylinder is and where the counter is placed along it's length.

In the version I opened (STP files) there was also a hexagonal plate blocking the chute mid way... did you not have that?

FrankJ 09-01-2017 13:12

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
The bigger question is how many balls can fit on a robot?

Jarren Harkema 09-01-2017 13:20

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leav (Post 1627924)
I would not feel safe working on the basis of those drawings. they are obviously rough sketches and there is no way to tell how tall the real cylinder is and where the counter is placed along it's length.

In the version I opened (STP files) there was also a hexagonal plate blocking the chute mid way... did you not have that?

Interesting, I just double checked, the boiler I was measuring doesn't have that hexagonal plate, but the other one does.. I must have missed that. The field walkthrough video's doesn't show that plate at that level though...

aldaeron 09-01-2017 13:24

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
It would be nice if FIRST would make a few more field videos showing from the field side and behind the wall what happens if they dump 50 ball into the high and low goal slots.

Since I know Q&A isn't the place to resolve this - does anyone know where such a request could be directed?

Thanks!

-matto-

Cothron Theiss 09-01-2017 13:28

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1627939)
The bigger question is how many balls can fit on a robot?

I'd echo this and add that the amount of Fuel that can fit in the Return bin is more important (and less) than the amount that can fit in the Boiler.

Eric Scheuing 09-01-2017 13:37

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1627939)
The bigger question is how many balls can fit on a robot?

Enough ;)

MikLast 09-01-2017 13:42

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1627939)
The bigger question is how many balls can fit on a robot?

Theoretically the answer is an unlimited amount, since the game pieces can stack up on itself and not count toward the robot height (and assuming physics didnt exist :rolleyes: )

Leav 09-01-2017 13:45

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aldaeron (Post 1627948)
It would be nice if FIRST would make a few more field videos showing from the field side and behind the wall what happens if they dump 50 ball into the high and low goal slots.

Since I know Q&A isn't the place to resolve this - does anyone know where such a request could be directed?

Thanks!

-matto-

HEAR HEAR!

I disagree - the q&a is a good official vector for this. too bad it only opens in a few days, after most teams would really like to have finalized their strategy.

Cothron Theiss 09-01-2017 13:55

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikLast (Post 1627965)
Theoretically the answer is an unlimited amount, since the game pieces can stack up on itself and not count toward the robot height (and assuming physics didnt exist :rolleyes: )

I wonder what the angle of repose for Fuel is. I imagine it's significantly steeper than the angle of repose for Fuel stored in a robot speeding across the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leav (Post 1627968)
too bad it only opens in a few days, after most teams would really like to have finalized their strategy.

I don't blame them for not opening the Q&A yet. Ignoring the fact that they're humans who probably need some rest, the Q&A would be inundated with basic questions that could be answered by a quick check of the rules and hypothetical questions about specific designs.

Hmm, maybe if somebody wrote a program that could recognize and delete all of those questions before the GDC had to see them, maybe they'd be willing to open up the Q&A earlier.

TerryS 09-01-2017 14:30

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema (Post 1627919)
Round 2 of my estimations for the high efficiency boiler goal.

Here is a picture of the cylinder and cone stack pulled directly from the Solidworks field drawing.



I would guess that there is some sort of indexer at the top similar to the bottom feeder, so lets assume that only the cylinder and the cone can hold excess fuel, and the of the innards are used to organize and count fuel.

Boiler Stack Cylinder
Radius: 7.5"
Height: 30"
Volume: 5,301 cubic inches

Boiler Stack Truncated cone
Height: 9"
Upper radius: 10.875"
Lower radius: 7.5"
Volume: 2,413.5 cubic inches

Total Volume: 7714.5 cubic inches

Fuel volume: 65.45 cubic inches

Random close pack of a sphere: ~64%

Total capacity of boiler stack: 75.4 fuel.

The boiler processes fuel in the high efficiency goal at a rate of ~ 5 fuel per second. Which means it would take ~15 seconds to process it all.

Firing 8 fuel a second (A feat I see very few teams accomplishing), a robot would need 25 seconds to fill the high efficiency boiler, firing a total of 200 fuel with 100% accuracy.

The max volume of a robot (34,560 cube in.) would hold 338 fuel, which obviously is not feasible. 200 fuel packed randomly would fill ~ 20,450 cubic inches. This would leave ~ 40% of the total robot volume available for drive train, and shooter.

If you look at field component drawing GE-17371 the boiler stack cylinder is not as long as the provided SolidWorks model. I removed the lower portion of the cylinder at the angle of the top cover and that reduced the boiler stack volume to 5,650 cu. in. which reduces the fuel capacity to about 56.

TerryS 09-01-2017 14:35

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema (Post 1627945)
Interesting, I just double checked, the boiler I was measuring doesn't have that hexagonal plate, but the other one does.. I must have missed that. The field walkthrough video's doesn't show that plate at that level though...

The hexagonal plate is a part of the steam tank. If you look at the model of the steam tank it's in there. A duplicate somehow was mistakenly placed in one of boiler assemblies.

eli.beker 11-01-2017 01:19

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
P.34 says "The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD."
Does it means that in any point of time these are the max fuels the boiler can hold?

Eric Scheuing 11-01-2017 09:13

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eli.beker (Post 1629097)
P.34 says "The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD."
Does it means that in any point of time these are the max fuels the boiler can hold?

I have a feeling that these are approximations and not exact numbers, but to me yes, that means no more fuel will fit in the boiler if that amount is reached.

FalconCHief 11-01-2017 09:20

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
According to one of our coaches this was in the first update:

The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

aldaeron 11-01-2017 10:42

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eli.beker (Post 1629097)
P.34 says "The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD."
Does it means that in any point of time these are the max fuels the boiler can hold?

I believe by using the word capacity, they mean the best-case usable volume inside the two goal sections of the boiler without the counters moving.

Essentially dump, cram and shake in as many balls as you can into the unpowered boiler then count the balls. To me it seems unlikely that this process would yield such an even number of balls, so I expect this is a theoretical calculation instead of a physical measurement. My guess is that they rounded down slightly since they put these explicit values in the manual.

-matto-

pilleya 11-01-2017 10:46

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconCHief (Post 1629154)
The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

I wonder if the 150 high fuel capacity includes fuel inside the pipe. The pipe itself could probably hold around 30-40 balls.

Rick_McThunder 11-01-2017 10:55

Re: Any idea for how many balls the boilers can hold?
 
 The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High
Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will
fall back on to the FIELD.
coming from team update 1.


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