Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Knots in the rope? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153142)

icomella 07-01-2017 15:41

Knots in the rope?
 
I've read the manual extensively and can't find anything that says you can or cannot put knots in your rope to assist with climbing. If no one knows, I'll just wait until the Q&A opens in four days.

SteveGPage 07-01-2017 15:45

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by icomella (Post 1626552)
I've read the manual extensively and can't find anything that says you can or cannot put knots in your rope to assist with climbing. If no one knows, I'll just wait until the Q&A opens in four days.

You can. Rule is <I04>

amesmich 07-01-2017 17:06

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I didn't see anything about putting a metal ring on the end closest to the floor? Would that be legal? There is not a whole lot about the rope other than diameter and material and length.

mman1506 07-01-2017 17:11

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626610)
I didn't see anything about putting a metal ring on the end closest to the floor? Would that be legal? There is not a whole lot about the rope other than diameter and material and length.

104.D
Quote:

consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together
except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered
in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.
I would not consider a metal ring to be within those rules. They are very specific about what is allowed.

amesmich 07-01-2017 17:23

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Those exact rules seem to give permission to have the last 4 inches as NOT flexible and being a exception to the requirements of the rope itself thus a ring allowed. I guess its a Q&A thing.

EricH 07-01-2017 17:37

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626619)
Those exact rules seem to give permission to have the last 4 inches as NOT flexible and being a exception to the requirements of the rope itself thus a ring allowed. I guess its a Q&A thing.

I cannot read the rule that way. The last 4 inches are allowed to have anti-fraying measures added. Having a ring in the last 4 inches would not be an anti-fraying measure.

The way I break it down is:
-entirely of non-metal fibers
-[that are] twisted, tied, woven, or braided together
-except for the last 4 inches of each end, which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.

Basically, you can make a rope out of non-metal fibers, and the whole thing needs to be together using legal methods, but in the last little bit you can add something to keep the whole thing from coming apart.

The real question is, how does a splice count?

Hitchhiker 42 07-01-2017 17:37

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626619)
Those exact rules seem to give permission to have the last 4 inches as NOT flexible and being a exception to the requirements of the rope itself thus a ring allowed. I guess its a Q&A thing.

Going off of that, how about a rope loop at the bottom (like a noose)? I'd assume yes, but I wanted to clarify.

MrBasse 07-01-2017 17:38

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I think it's a bit of a stretch to classify a metal ring as a coating material though...

mman1506 07-01-2017 17:58

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626619)
Those exact rules seem to give permission to have the last 4 inches as NOT flexible and being a exception to the requirements of the rope itself thus a ring allowed. I guess its a Q&A thing.

The rules do not leave room for a metal ring and specifically defines allowed exceptions (may be whipped, fused, covered
in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.)

A metal ring would no longer meet the listed criteria of being a "rope" and thus cannot be installed on the field. If you tied the end of the rope to a chair would you then be able to bring that chair on on the field? Why is a metal ring any different?

Jonny_Jee 07-01-2017 18:04

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Hmmmm so can you tape the bottom of the rope with retroreflective tape?

markmcgary 07-01-2017 18:09

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny_Jee (Post 1626648)
Hmmmm so can you tape the bottom of the rope with retroreflective tape?

We've already found a vendor for retroreflective rope.

amesmich 07-01-2017 18:57

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I believe a loop is legal so long as it meet the size constraints. 12" I think off memory. I would not consider tying a ring to it but a loop woven into it. I suppose I could accomplish the same thing by making a loop with the rope and adding a hard "anti fray" polymer coating. Not sure we even want do it but generating ideas. Thanks for your thoughts.

amesmich 07-01-2017 19:00

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1626645)
The rules do not leave room for a metal ring and specifically defines allowed exceptions (may be whipped, fused, covered
in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.)

A metal ring would no longer meet the listed criteria of being a "rope" and thus cannot be installed on the field. If you tied the end of the rope to a chair would you then be able to bring that chair on on the field? Why is a metal ring any different?


Because the chair would violate i04-G

EricH 07-01-2017 19:01

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626688)
I believe a loop is legal so long as it meet the size constraints. 12" I think off memory. I would not consider tying a ring to it but a loop woven into it. I suppose I could accomplish the same thing by making a loop with the rope and adding a hard "anti fray" polymer coating. Not sure we even want do it but generating ideas. Thanks for your thoughts.

10", actually, per I04.


I still want to see how the GDC handles splices--I suspect they'd be considered "woven" or "braided", and if they're done right they can be nearly the size of the original rope, or thicker, depending on the type used. But they can be very stiff...

mman1506 07-01-2017 19:25

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amesmich (Post 1626688)
I believe a loop is legal so long as it meet the size constraints. 12" I think off memory. I would not consider tying a ring to it but a loop woven into it. I suppose I could accomplish the same thing by making a loop with the rope and adding a hard "anti fray" polymer coating. Not sure we even want do it but generating ideas. Thanks for your thoughts.

1.5
Quote:

The intent of this manual is that the text means exactly, and only, what it says.
Yes the loop is legal but why does putting the metal ring in the loop make the metal ring legal. When you add tape to the end of the rope it becomes part of the rope as it is still within the criteria of the rope according to the rules. A metal ring does not.

Anyway ask Q&A.

GeeTwo 07-01-2017 22:55

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
On splices...

As I read it, an "end cap splice" of up to four inches in length would probably be OK (though that would be rather short for 1" line).
Slicing the rope along its length to another rope would require the splice to still be no larger than 1" in diameter (not too difficult if the line is 5/8" or smaller) would still be "braided" and allowed.

Splicing a loop into the end of the line (unless it were very short and could all fit in 4") would not be a knot and would not be allowed. (Say the last part three times fast.)

[Usual caveat that this is my opinion, not a Q&A answer.]

Kevin Sevcik 07-01-2017 23:24

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1626693)
But they can be very stiff...

Better not make it too stiff for too long a distance:
Quote:

Originally Posted by I04-D Bluebox
Flexible means that if the ROPE is held at any point, it should not extend more than 12” above the point where it is held. ROPES are meant to be pulled, not pushed.


LEGOlas798 07-01-2017 23:54

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I can't help but think about this quote in rule I04, section D:

"consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying"

Does anyone know of a "coating material" that can be magnetized? Just an idea.

The Swag Muffin 08-01-2017 00:03

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Could you use a mettle crimp at the end of a rope to keep it from fraying.

"Consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, coveredin heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying."

Would mettle all so be excepted for the last 4 inches?

Kevin Sevcik 08-01-2017 00:08

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LEGOlas798 (Post 1626944)
Does anyone know of a "coating material" that can be magnetized? Just an idea.

You can get magnetic paint/primer, but I suspect the GDC is going to shoot that one down on Q&A.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Swag Muffin (Post 1626952)
"Consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, coveredin heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying."

Would mettle all so be excepted for the last 4 inches?

Do you see "crimped metal ferrule" in that list of end treatments? If you HAVE to have something metallic there, I think currently your options are magnetic paint or whipping it with steel wire/cable. I seriously wouldn't get my hopes up about that, though. I think that's likely to get shot down about a day after the Q&A opens.

Back on the knots subject, in case anyone hasn't done the math, it looks like the davit has about 22" of steel guide below where the attachment knot should go. So a knot in your rope should be about 7" below the steel channel of the davit. Not sure how far below the touchpad that puts you, but it's definitely close. I'm assuming y'all are thinking of regularly spaced knots and a notched pulley?

Cothron Theiss 08-01-2017 00:11

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I want to add to this discussion that any of the modifications you can make to the last 4" of the rope must be in order to prevent fraying. This kind of thing will be inspected on a one by one basis, and if your rope has anything that the inspector deems not for the purpose of preventing fraying, they shouldn't allow it to pass inspection.

Cothron Theiss 08-01-2017 00:17

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Swag Muffin (Post 1626952)
Could you use a mettle crimp at the end of a rope to keep it from fraying.

"Consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, coveredin heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying."

Would mettle all so be excepted for the last 4 inches?

The way I read the rules, I think that no metal of any kind will be allowed on any part of the rope. I think the non-metallic bit is meant to describe ALL parts of the rope. But don't take my word for it. This is probably a question for the Q&A. A team could decide to dip their ropes in molten aluminum or iron for some reason.

cadandcookies 08-01-2017 01:30

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1626960)
You can get magnetic paint/primer, but I suspect the GDC is going to shoot that one down on Q&A.
Do you see "crimped metal ferrule" in that list of end treatments? If you HAVE to have something metallic there, I think currently your options are magnetic paint or whipping it with steel wire/cable. I seriously wouldn't get my hopes up about that, though. I think that's likely to get shot down about a day after the Q&A opens.

Back on the knots subject, in case anyone hasn't done the math, it looks like the davit has about 22" of steel guide below where the attachment knot should go. So a knot in your rope should be about 7" below the steel channel of the davit. Not sure how far below the touchpad that puts you, but it's definitely close. I'm assuming y'all are thinking of regularly spaced knots and a notched pulley?

From the knots and loops school of thought, Ri3D 'Snow Problem is attempting a climber that will essentially act as a winch on a rope with a loop at the end, using rotating pegs and a cam cleat. We should have a video of our prototype on Monday (it's linked to our intake, and is basically just an interesting concept that isn't much of a risk for us if it doesn't work out).

Kevin Sevcik 08-01-2017 10:26

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1627017)
From the knots and loops school of thought, Ri3D 'Snow Problem is attempting a climber that will essentially act as a winch on a rope with a loop at the end, using rotating pegs and a cam cleat. We should have a video of our prototype on Monday (it's linked to our intake, and is basically just an interesting concept that isn't much of a risk for us if it doesn't work out).

I think that'll be a pretty common idea, yeah. Don't kill yourselves getting the cam cleat working though. If you can lift the whole way without it, your lift is good enough, since scoring is at the instant of T=0. If you've had the touchpad triggered for >1s before T=0, then you're good.

The cam cleat would save some battery since it'd hold you in place passively, and it'd give you a 1s margin, since triggering the pad at T=0 and maintaining for 1s also scores. But staying up there after T=0 definitely isn't a requirement this year.

cadandcookies 08-01-2017 10:46

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1627120)
I think that'll be a pretty common idea, yeah. Don't kill yourselves getting the cam cleat working though. If you can lift the whole way without it, your lift is good enough, since scoring is at the instant of T=0. If you've had the touchpad triggered for >1s before T=0, then you're good.

The cam cleat would save some battery since it'd hold you in place passively, and it'd give you a 1s margin, since triggering the pad at T=0 and maintaining for 1s also scores. But staying up there after T=0 definitely isn't a requirement this year.

The entire plan regarding our climber is to not kill ourselves over getting it working-- we figure that whether we fail miserably or succeed wildly, or anywhere in between, the community learns something, which is why we're doing Ri3D in the first place.

1247Robotics 08-01-2017 10:47

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1626652)
We've already found a vendor for retroreflective rope.

I didn't see any rule regarding how legal this was. It would be great if it was legal since we are hoping to leverage vision tracking this year.

Tottanka 09-01-2017 15:44

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Regarding knots in the loop, are you allowed to make them in the provided rope, and not have it count as the custom rope for the alliance?
Any reference for an anwer?

Cothron Theiss 09-01-2017 15:49

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tottanka (Post 1628069)
Regarding knots in the loop, are you allowed to make them in the provided rope, and not have it count as the custom rope for the alliance?
Any reference for an anwer?

I don't think there's a rule explicitly saying you can't, but your event staff will quickly come to hate you. Also, they could cite G02, specifically example J.

Ari423 09-01-2017 16:04

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tottanka (Post 1628069)
Regarding knots in the loop, are you allowed to make them in the provided rope, and not have it count as the custom rope for the alliance?
Any reference for an anwer?

No rule to reference, but from a practical standpoint I expect the answer is no. Your whole rope, including knots must be less than 1" wide. If you put knots in the provided rope without getting it inspected*, there is no way to ensure that your rope follows that rule.


*on-field inspections are not allowed and you can't remove the provided ropes from the field

engunneer 09-01-2017 16:19

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tottanka (Post 1628069)
Regarding knots in the loop, are you allowed to make them in the provided rope, and not have it count as the custom rope for the alliance?
Any reference for an anwer?

I don't think the alliance is limited to a single custom rope anyway. I think each team is limited to a single custom rope.

I also agree that the field's rope cannot be knotted, as it is not inspectable.

Ogehsim 09-01-2017 16:36

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
I04 says "A Team must submit any ROPE they intend to use in a MATCH for Inspection."

Does "any" imply a team could have more than 1 custom rope?
I see that you can only bring 1 rope onto the field, but I can't find anything that says you can only bring 1 custom rope to competition.

Kevin Sevcik 09-01-2017 16:36

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

I04. ROPES have to be inspected. A Team must submit any ROPE they intend to use in a MATCH for Inspection. A ROPE must meet the following criteria:
A. have a maximum width of 1 in. (nominal) (e.g. exclusive of any knot widths)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1628090)
No rule to reference, but from a practical standpoint I expect the answer is no. Your whole rope, including knots must be less than 1" wide.

Rope nominal width is 1", knots don't count. Although I expect excessive knots will be frowned upon.
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1628105)
I don't think the alliance is limited to a single custom rope anyway. I think each team is limited to a single custom rope.

I don't see anything in the rules about being limited to a single custom rope. The wording of replacing 1 rope with your own rope suggests you can't hand an extra custom rope to an ally and have them put it on the field for you, but I don't see anything that would limit you to multiple inspected ropes in your inventory.

I think I'd kind of prefer inspecting someone's entire supply of ropes all at once instead of a rushed inspection of a replacement rope in the middle of Elims, honestly.

engunneer 09-01-2017 16:46

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1628120)
I don't see anything in the rules about being limited to a single custom rope. The wording of replacing 1 rope with your own rope suggests you can't hand an extra custom rope to an ally and have them put it on the field for you, but I don't see anything that would limit you to multiple inspected ropes in your inventory.

I agree but the person i was replying to seemed to imply it was one per alliance. They are not the only person to have this conception but nobody had responded to that point yet. see https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...hreadid=153312

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1628120)
I think I'd kind of prefer inspecting someone's entire supply of ropes all at once instead of a rushed inspection of a replacement rope in the middle of Elims, honestly.

Totally agree. Each team with custom ropes should have multiple copies to have a ready spare, and they should all get inspected at once so they can be swapped out as needed.

FalconCHief 10-01-2017 14:28

Re: Knots in the rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1628090)
No rule to reference, but from a practical standpoint I expect the answer is no. Your whole rope, including knots must be less than 1" wide. If you put knots in the provided rope without getting it inspected*, there is no way to ensure that your rope follows that rule.


*on-field inspections are not allowed and you can't remove the provided ropes from the field

The rule is: A. have a maximum width of 1 in. (nominal) (e.g. exclusive of any knot widths)

This means knots do CAN be >1 in wide as long as the rope making the knot is no bigger than 1 in wide.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:18.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi