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Bo8_87 07-01-2017 17:05

Scoring of rotors
 
If a team gets a rotor in autonomous, they will get 60 points. However, at the end of teleop, will the rotor get scored again for 40 points, for a total of 100? Or does the rotor only get the 60 points from auto?

remymathenia 07-01-2017 17:10

Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
The rules say that it is 60 points "for each rotor turning by period's T=0" in auto, and 40 points "for each rotor turning by period's T=0 in teleop. Does this mean that a rotor can/would count for 100 points as it would be rotating at the end of auto, and the end of teleop?

Example:
One rotor is turning by the end of auto = 60 points
Four rotors are turning by the end of teleop = 40 points/rotor = 160 points
60 points + 160 points = 220 rotor points

Maybe we're just missing something in the rules . . . Thanks FRC community!!

Mr.Twister 07-01-2017 18:11

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
What I got out of the video and of the rules is that you only get the points when the rotor was started initially (after 3 full rotations in the airship.)

Example:
You get one rotor activated in Autonomous= 60pts
-then there are only 3 rotors left x 40pts = 120pts (that's if you activate the rest during teleop.)

So in this case, the maximum points due to the rotors is 180pts (60 during autonomous, and 120 during Teleop.)

This is what I got out of it, please let me know if I am wrong
Thanks,
Dillon

markmcgary 07-01-2017 18:19

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Twister (Post 1626656)
So in this case, the maximum points due to the rotors is 180pts (60 during autonomous, and 120 during Teleop.)

Why not 200, 120 during auto and 80 during teleop?

bbensel 07-01-2017 18:25

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1626658)
Why not 200, 120 during auto and 80 during teleop?

This is entirely possible, it just seems that people haven't considered it yet. Quite a big point bonus though, just needs every robot to do a gear.

Cothron Theiss 07-01-2017 18:28

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1626658)
Why not 200, 120 during auto and 80 during teleop?

It's definitely possible, but it requires all three robots to place a gear. I imagine that situation will be about as common as 70 point autos were for Stronghold.

mrnoble 07-01-2017 18:31

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
3.2.1, page 23, is pertinent.

Peyton Yeung 07-01-2017 18:34

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1626664)
It's definitely possible, but it requires all three robots to place a gear. I imagine that situation will be about as common as 70 point autos were for Stronghold.

I'm waiting for the multi gear auto modes from the elite teams a la 2011. Little more complicated since gears must be fully supported by the original robot.

Mr.Twister 07-01-2017 18:40

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1626658)
Why not 200, 120 during auto and 80 during teleop?

Yes, this is very well possible. In the case that I said, the maximum point value is 180.

The only problem is how likely are there going to be three robots able to go to three serperate lifts and have enough time to get rotor 1 to turn? It would probably end up counting as a teleop rotor turn if it takes more than 15 seconds and only give you 40 points like I said in the first example. So it would equal out to the same amount of points either way.

Cothron Theiss 07-01-2017 18:42

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1626667)
I'm waiting for the multi gear auto modes from the elite teams a la 2011. Little more complicated since gears must be fully supported by the original robot.

Hm. I hadn't really thought about that. I feel like having an auto that places a gear and scores the 10 pre-loaded fuel would be a more repeatable goal for the elite teams, but I guess we'll see.

team-4480 07-01-2017 18:43

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
So are teams legally able to grab another gear during autonomous? We would love to put the first gear and then go backward to the loading station and grab another.

GaryVoshol 07-01-2017 18:53

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
Good question. I'm sure the answer is going to be, "However FMS is programmed to score it." And I'd guess it would be scored either 60 or 40, not both.

But if a ROTOR is turning at time T=0 of Auto, then it's also turning at time T=0 of Teleop. So technically it should count both, per Table 4.1. Unless FMS turns off any turning ROTOR at the end of Auto.

Q&A will be the only definitive answer.

Edit: I'm pretty sure it would have to be one or the other, not both. Else the FUEL scored in Auto would also count again in Teleop.

engunneer 07-01-2017 18:54

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by team-4480 (Post 1626675)
So are teams legally able to grab another gear during autonomous? We would love to put the first gear and then go backward to the loading station and grab another.

the only legal source of another gear in auto is your alliance partners. if your partner can't score a gear, but can somehow transfer it to you, then you can potentially score it.

This will be tricky and unlikely, but not impossible.

markmcgary 07-01-2017 19:00

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
I think we'll see 120 pt. rotor scores in auto from some playoff alliances. Likely with each robot hanging a gear.

GaryVoshol 07-01-2017 19:02

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
Two similar threads merged, resulting in somewhat out of order posts.

ATannahill 07-01-2017 19:23

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
There are stack lights for the first three rotors that are meant to indicate if each rotor was engaged in auton. I assume (I know, bad idea) FIRST would not put a stack light on the second (or third) rotor if they did not expect it to be spinning at the end of autonomous at least once.

Bronze 07-01-2017 21:13

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
As far as our team currently understands it:

Rotors are scored if they are turning at T=0 of a period (per the scoring chart on page 42 of the manual). They are not scored when they start turning. An indicator is on the first two rotors (as per page 23 of the manual) because they are the only two which can possibly be powered during autonomous (maximum of 3 gears can be lifted during auto). There is however, no discussion of that indicator causing such a rotor to not be scored at the T=0 of the tele-op period. In our thoughts (but we wait for some official decision), the score for such a rotor is as follows:

Autonomous ends (T = 0) -> 60 points per rotor spinning
Tele-op ends (T = 0) -> 40 points per rotor spinning.

Each rotor started in auto is effectively worth 100 points by the end of the match.

Making the maximum points for engaging rotors 200 (auto, 2 rotors) + 160 (tele, 4 rotors) + 100 (playoffs bonus) or 1 RP (quals bonus), for 460 points, or 360 points and an RP.

Note, the logistics of powering the 2nd rotor during autonomous: not only must you deliver all 3 gears to their lifts, the 2 pilots must then lift the 3 gears and place them properly (this means one pilot must lift 2 gears within 15 seconds, safely) then make 3 rotations of the second rotor. This process must be complete within 15 seconds, as the rotor must be spinning at T=0 of auto.

[b]TL : DR[\B] - as of current rules, 60 points for auto + 40 points per tele-op, even if it started spinning during auto = 100 points. Can get 2 rotors during auto, but very difficult in the time limit.

engunneer 07-01-2017 21:22

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze (Post 1626818)
Note, the logistics of powering the 2nd rotor during autonomous: not only must you deliver all 3 gears to their lifts, the 2 pilots must then lift the 3 gears and place them properly (this means one pilot must lift 2 gears within 15 seconds, safely) then make 3 rotations of the second rotor. This process must be complete within 15 seconds, as the rotor must be spinning at T=0 of auto.

I am almost certain there will be a update that either changes the auto to 20 (+40 in teleop = 60), or alters the text that the rotor must have started during the period in which it is scored.

as far as quickly and safely lifting three gears, I also suspect that an update will be made requiring the pilot to drop the lift back down before placing the gear. this is slower, but is a tripping hazard. otherwise the faster thing to do is not reset the lift until the beginning of teleop.

Bronze 07-01-2017 21:22

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze (Post 1626818)
Making the maximum points for engaging rotors 200 (auto, 2 rotors) + 160 (tele, 4 rotors) + 100 (playoffs bonus) or 1 RP (quals bonus), for 460 points, or 360 points and an RP.

Whoops, my tired brain can't do simple math. Its 120 (auto, 2 rotors) + 160 (tele, 4 rotors) + 100 (playoffs) or 1 RP (quals), for 380 max score, 280 quals and an RP. :D :p

team-4480 07-01-2017 21:29

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1626687)
the only legal source of another gear in auto is your alliance partners. if your partner can't score a gear, but can somehow transfer it to you, then you can potentially score it.

This will be tricky and unlikely, but not impossible.

That kinda dulls our autonomous plans then. I mean, 60 points is 60 points, but it would've been nice to do something a little cooler. Maybe we will have to add a ball dumping into our auto or something to make it a little more interesting...

engunneer 07-01-2017 21:37

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by team-4480 (Post 1626837)
That kinda dulls our autonomous plans then. I mean, 60 points is 60 points, but it would've been nice to do something a little cooler. Maybe we will have to add a ball dumping into our auto or something to make it a little more interesting...

a single robot can score 100pts+1RP solo in auto. this will happen at least once.

jojoguy10 08-01-2017 12:26

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1626841)
a single robot can score 100pts+1RP solo in auto. this will happen at least once.

How can this happen? The only way an alliance can score 1RP is to have all 4 ROTORS spin, get 40kPa in the BOILER, or tie a match. Since there are only 30 FUEL at the beginning of AUTO, (and 1 FUEL in the HIGH GOAL during AUTO = 1kPa), the max kPa during AUTO is only 30kPa (30 < 40). And, to get all 4 ROTORS spinning, the alliance needs 13 total GEARS, and the alliance only starts out with 3 at the beginning of AUTO.

Is there some magic happening that I don't see? :)

engunneer 08-01-2017 12:29

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jojoguy10 (Post 1627170)
How can this happen? The only way an alliance can score 1RP is to have all 4 ROTORS spin, get 40kPa in the BOILER, or tie a match. Since there are only 30 FUEL at the beginning of AUTO, (and 1 FUEL in the HIGH GOAL during AUTO = 1kPa), the max kPa during AUTO is only 30kPa (30 < 40). And, to get all 4 ROTORS spinning, the alliance needs 13 total GEARS, and the alliance only starts out with 3 at the beginning of AUTO.

Is there some magic happening that I don't see? :)

there is nothing preventing you from dumping a hopper in auto. We are seriously considering what it would take to deliver a gear, dump a hopper (catching 50), then shooting half of the balls at each goal simultaneously. As long as you start shooting with >8 seconds left, it should all process in time.

Boltman 08-01-2017 12:31

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jojoguy10 (Post 1627170)
How can this happen? The only way an alliance can score 1RP is to have all 4 ROTORS spin, get 40kPa in the BOILER, or tie a match. Since there are only 30 FUEL at the beginning of AUTO, (and 1 FUEL in the HIGH GOAL during AUTO = 1kPa), the max kPa during AUTO is only 30kPa (30 < 40). And, to get all 4 ROTORS spinning, the alliance needs 13 total GEARS, and the alliance only starts out with 3 at the beginning of AUTO.

Is there some magic happening that I don't see? :)

Its "possible" to load more than 10 fuel per alliance bot in auto from hopper and score gear...hard but possible. Think we will see top teams do this in worlds.

jojoguy10 08-01-2017 12:36

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1627171)
there is nothing preventing you from dumping a hopper in auto. We are seriously considering what it would take to deliver a gear, dump a hopper (catching 50), then shooting half of the balls at each goal simultaneously. As long as you start shooting with >8 seconds left, it should all process in time.

Ahhh.....OK, I can see this happening with the top teams.

ollien 08-01-2017 15:17

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Twister (Post 1626656)
What I got out of the video and of the rules is that you only get the points when the rotor was started initially (after 3 full rotations in the airship.)

Interestingly, unless I'm missing something, the manual doesn't reflect this "three full rotations" bit. Only the field tour.

The closest I can find:
Quote:

When a GEAR set for ROTORS 2, 3, or 4 is complete, a CRANK, a handle located with the first GEAR in
the set, can be turned which engages the corresponding ROTOR.

team5682zs 08-01-2017 16:56

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
HUMAN PLAYER practice will be a must. Perhaps once people get a AIRSHIP model completed with LIFTs, they will share on youtube the possibility of the 380 point teleop score for more buy in.

Is it safe to say that the Robot can not push the lift up?
I see a statement that reflects that it is to be pulled up by the player.
But Robot interactions do not exclude pushing field elements.

I see this as a potential safety issue as a GEAR could be moving up without the PILOT's direct manipulation, however students may think it saves the pilot time by having the robot lift up the gear for them.

team5682zs 08-01-2017 16:58

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
I tried looking through the field assembly...

It it about a 2.5 ft cable pull to get the gear from the bottom of the LIFT to the PORT?

tig567899 08-01-2017 17:07

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1627171)
there is nothing preventing you from dumping a hopper in auto. We are seriously considering what it would take to deliver a gear, dump a hopper (catching 50), then shooting half of the balls at each goal simultaneously. As long as you start shooting with >8 seconds left, it should all process in time.

Still, that'd be 25 pts for high goal, 25/3 points for low goal, giving you 33 kPa, not enough for an RP. Where are you getting the RP from?

Michael Hill 08-01-2017 17:15

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1627349)
Still, that'd be 25 pts for high goal, 25/3 points for low goal, giving you 33 kPa, not enough for an RP. Where are you getting the RP from?

You start out with 10 Fuel.

Thayer McCollum 08-01-2017 17:24

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1626664)
It's definitely possible, but it requires all three robots to place a gear. I imagine that situation will be about as common as 70 point autos were for Stronghold.

I expect three gear/two rotor autos will be even less common because not only do all three robots have to deliver a gear but two humans have to retrieve three gears, then place one of them on the center spot, fit the other two into their spots and spin the crank three times. I just don't think that the pilots will be able to move fast enough for that to happen. I expect we'll see it once or twice but no more than that.

Cothron Theiss 08-01-2017 17:28

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1627270)
Interestingly, unless I'm missing something, the manual doesn't reflect this "three full rotations" bit. Only the field tour.

According to the field tour, the FMS doesn't recognize that the GEAR set is being rotated until after three rotations, so that indicates to me that the scoring will coincide with the rotor actually turning, or in case of a field issue, the corresponding light activating.

I do wish that the manual didn't say the GEAR sets "engage the corresponding rotor." That implies to me that the GEAR sets are physically meshed with the rotor, when the field tour explains that the GEARs drive an encoder, which tells the FMS to turn on the rotor.

Zeke E 08-01-2017 18:06

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1627366)
According to the field tour, the FMS doesn't recognize that the GEAR set is being rotated until after three rotations, so that indicates to me that the scoring will coincide with the rotor actually turning, or in case of a field issue, the corresponding light activating.

I do wish that the manual didn't say the GEAR sets "engage the corresponding rotor." That implies to me that the GEAR sets are physically meshed with the rotor, when the field tour explains that the GEARs drive an encoder, which tells the FMS to turn on the rotor.

Looks like we've got ourselves a steamacrit. It is odd that we don't have any written proof of how many rotations it takes, if there is a set number. Field tour makes sense, but I just can't bring myself to trust something not in the manual.

Josh Tatum 08-01-2017 20:43

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
If they do not change the rules, a team could take the reserve gear and put it into the first Rotor. This would get them the 100 points but because the other alliance to also get 25 points which means that the alliance would net 75 points, which is greater than the 40 they would get if they waited for teleop.

Bronze 08-01-2017 21:16

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Tatum (Post 1627490)
If they do not change the rules, a team could take the reserve gear and put it into the first Rotor. This would get them the 100 points but because the other alliance to also get 25 points which means that the alliance would net 75 points, which is greater than the 40 they would get if they waited for teleop.

Good point. However, if you did do this, by employing a strategy that purposefully generates a foul (repeatedly), you are going quite seriously against the spirit of FIRST.

That being said, I am almost certain that the rules intended for autonomous rotors to be 60 points total, not 60 then 40. This would make the tech foul for taking the reserve gear and powering a rotor more of a penalty than the point bonus for getting an auto rotor. (you get 20, they get 25).

botster 09-01-2017 01:56

Re: Auto Rotor Point Total?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thayer McCollum (Post 1627361)
I expect three gear/two rotor autos will be even less common because not only do all three robots have to deliver a gear but two humans have to retrieve three gears, then place one of them on the center spot, fit the other two into their spots and spin the crank three times. I just don't think that the pilots will be able to move fast enough for that to happen. I expect we'll see it once or twice but no more than that.

I would just like to point out that there has been no rule against all three robots placing their gear on the close spring. That would make scoring three gears considerably easier and faster than having robots drive to the far side of the airship, turn, and then place their gear.

frcguy 09-01-2017 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by botster (Post 1627653)
I would just like to point out that there has been no rule against all three robots placing their gear on the close spring. That would make scoring three gears considerably easier and faster than having robots drive to the far side of the airship, turn, and then place their gear.


Interesting idea, although I'd definitely check the Q&A for legality.

Bo8_87 10-01-2017 18:23

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate01.pdf

The team update states that rotors are scored only if they are not previously scored, so I interpret this as a rotor scored in autonomous won't be recounted for teleop.

Quote:
For each ROTOR turning by period’s T=0,
that’s not previously been scored

jlindquist74 10-01-2017 18:49

Re: Scoring of rotors
 
From today's Team Update 1:
Quote:

For each ROTOR turning by period’s T=0, that’s not previously been scored
The red text is new. If it was scored in autonomous, it won't be scored again at the end of teleop. (The 4-rotor bonus, of course, still stands if you get all four turning.)


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