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-   -   Lift Peg (Spring) Source? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153157)

EricWilliams 07-01-2017 17:44

Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
The McMaster listing https://www.mcmaster.com/#9664k68/=15ta0ri as per the field drawing is showing "usually ships in 2 weeks" and our order confirmation says "ships in 2-4 weeks :eek:

Anyone have leads on other (more readily available) sources?

RoboTigers1796 07-01-2017 23:37

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricWilliams (Post 1626639)
The McMaster listing https://www.mcmaster.com/#9664k68/=15ta0ri as per the field drawing is showing "usually ships in 2 weeks" and our order confirmation says "ships in 2-4 weeks :eek:

Anyone have leads on other (more readily available) sources?

In the same boat, been searching but can't find an alternate source. Would appreciate any help!

garpal_robotics 08-01-2017 00:02

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Hi folks-- ran into the same issue. I ordered the 9664K68 and will wait the 2 weeks for the real deal... However right above that spring on McMaster is: 9664K31 it is a lighter gauge wire .105 vs the .135 but it has the same outside diameter... I think it will get us through prototyping in week one. (it was available right away)

Hope that helps a little.

Nuttyman54 08-01-2017 00:23

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garpal_robotics (Post 1626950)
Hi folks-- ran into the same issue. I ordered the 9664K68 and will wait the 2 weeks for the real deal... However right above that spring on McMaster is: 9664K31 it is a lighter gauge wire .105 vs the .135 but it has the same outside diameter... I think it will get us through prototyping in week one. (it was available right away)

Hope that helps a little.

Word of warning: 9664K31 won't behave anything like the official spec 9664K68. The field official spring has 24lb starting force and 159lb/in spring rate. The replacement you spec'd is a 9lb spring with only 14lb/in spring rate, nearly an order of magnitude less stiff than the competition spec.

dtengineering 08-01-2017 01:03

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Try this. They also have Canadian distribution so will ship without brokerage. http://www.essentracomponents.com/en...springs/es-241

Cory 08-01-2017 03:54

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Just call McMaster. "ships in 2 weeks" tends to be the standard placeholder for "we don't have this at the moment". I've almost always had that 2 weeks go down to 1-2 days when I call and say I need it sooner.

I'm sure it's gonna be longer than 2 days in this case but I would be surprised if McMaster is actually out of stock for 2 weeks. It may just be an automated status since they got a massive run on an item they probably sell 1 or 2 of a day at most.

Jpatterson1710 08-01-2017 03:59

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Don't forget McMaster has five regional distribution centers. You might be able to pick one up if you're located near one of the warehouses.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine the location of all of the regional warehouses, but I do know we have one here in Kansas City.

Can't hurt to call and ask for directions to a warehouse, or rushed fulfillment.

Ari423 08-01-2017 07:33

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpatterson1710 (Post 1627053)
Don't forget McMaster has five regional distribution centers. You might be able to pick one up if you're located near one of the warehouses.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine the location of all of the regional warehouses, but I do know we have one here in Kansas City.

Can't hurt to call and ask for directions to a warehouse, or rushed fulfillment.

The five regional distribution centers are in Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, and Princeton (NJ).


Also have any Israeli teams found an Israeli distributor with an equivalent spring?

Jpatterson1710 08-01-2017 08:20

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1627060)
The five regional distribution centers are in Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, and Princeton (NJ).


Also have any Israeli teams found an Israeli distributor with an equivalent spring?

Hmmm, we definitely got McMaster parts locally (Kansas City) when I was on a team, any idea of a warehouse closed in the past couple years?

Ari423 08-01-2017 08:24

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpatterson1710 (Post 1627074)
Hmmm, we definitely got McMaster parts locally (Kansas City) when I was on a team, any idea of a warehouse closed in the past couple years?

No idea but those are the 5 listed on their website (top left corner)

TroyCDH 08-01-2017 15:18

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Greetings,

I am looking at the "team build" wood drawings. I do not see a cut length for the 7/8 diameter spring. McMaster shows the part is 36" long. I doubt we need all that. Home Depot sells a 7/8 with some ends that i would have to cut off.

Anyone see the spring length for the team build?

Thanks, Troy 2450

one4robots 08-01-2017 15:47

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyCDH (Post 1627271)
Greetings,

I am looking at the "team build" wood drawings. I do not see a cut length for the 7/8 diameter spring. McMaster shows the part is 36" long. I doubt we need all that. Home Depot sells a 7/8 with some ends that i would have to cut off.

Anyone see the spring length for the team build?

Thanks, Troy 2450

Hi Troy,

The length is 9" per the team build plans. We bought a spring at Menards that is that length, but not as thick guage, therefore not as stiff. It works fine for prototyping.

Vince

Ubiquity 08-01-2017 16:22

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
I found a 12 inch extension spring at Home Depot, sku 172 045 15637. Cost about $7. This is the Everbuilt (Home Depot branded) spring found near door hardware.

Looks like it will work just fine, It may be a little less stiff than the McMaster.

Available today! (I do not work or endorse Home Depot Products.:yikes: )

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...mNwMGxsZ3ZOVU0

SenorZ 08-01-2017 16:32

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
I called. They guy said, "Is this for a robot project? Yeah, we're not going to be able to get them for at least a week." [Los Angeles area center in Santa Fe Springs]

BenDSterling 08-01-2017 16:45

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
I just spoke with McMaster [Atlanta Distribution Center] and they guy on the phone said that this spring is currently the most popular item on their site right now (haha go FIRST). He also said that the majority of the phone calls he has answered today have been asking for this spring. He was genuinely confused on why this spring was so popular.

He said that, if anything, it will probably be longer than expected. So we might be out of luck.

dkavanagh 08-01-2017 17:29

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
When I checked on Saturday, it was a 1 week wait and we placed an order. I'll let you know if that happens. We'll use a dowel till then.

dtengineering 08-01-2017 21:55

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Century Spring product number C-333 is very similar in diameter (O.D. And wire) and just happens to be 9" long. You'd still have to cut the ends off, but there should be a tonne of these around.

https://www.amazon.ca/Century-Spring.../dp/B000BD6BUE

And I warned the woman I spoke to at Essentra Components to expect a surge of orders. FIRST can have that effect...

Jason

RoboTigers1796 08-01-2017 22:25

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 1627533)
Century Spring product number C-333 is very similar in diameter (O.D. And wire) and just happens to be 9" long. You'd still have to cut the ends off, but there should be a tonne of these around.

https://www.amazon.ca/Century-Spring.../dp/B000BD6BUE

And I warned the woman I spoke to at Essentra Components to expect a surge of orders. FIRST can have that effect...

Jason

Thanks! I just grabbed one until the mcmaster one shows up. (american link for the lazy -https://www.amazon.com/CENTURY-SPRING-C-333-Extension-Spring/dp/B000BD6BUE)

sanddrag 09-01-2017 02:00

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Century Spring 5518 looks like it may be usable. Anyone agree or disagree?

Tottanka 09-01-2017 05:19

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1627060)
The five regional distribution centers are in Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, and Princeton (NJ).


Also have any Israeli teams found an Israeli distributor with an equivalent spring?

Nope, and mcmaster doesnt ship to Israel even if it was in stock.

JamesBrown 09-01-2017 09:43

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1627655)
Century Spring 5518 looks like it may be usable. Anyone agree or disagree?

Century Spring E-41


I think you want Century Spring E-41, the rate constant matches on that one.

Disclaimer, I am an EE, and I know nothing about springs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 1627533)
And I warned the woman I spoke to at Essentra Components to expect a surge of orders. FIRST can have that effect...

Jason


Current lead time from Essentra is 8 Days

RyanCahoon 09-01-2017 10:24

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBrown (Post 1627772)

There's a couple left here https://www.amazon.com/875-135-158-7.../dp/B002P4VHD8

RichardChycoski 09-01-2017 12:25

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Already gone. :-)

For now, I've ordered the McMaster-Carr 9664k66, which is smaller in diameter (.750) but has somewhat similar spring characteristics.

It was in stock, to be shipped today.

Of course, now that I've said this in a public forum...

Drivencrazy 09-01-2017 12:58

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
For what it's worth, I was able to find a similar spring at our local ACE Hardware, it was shorter than the regulation spring which is of course not ideal, but it should suffice for a few rounds of prototyping.

JoeRames 09-01-2017 19:38

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Ordered ours from here. Few days. http://www.midlandhardware.com/639807.html

sanddrag 09-01-2017 23:24

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBrown (Post 1627772)
Century Spring E-41


I think you want Century Spring E-41, the rate constant matches on that one.

Disclaimer, I am an EE, and I know nothing about springs.

I'm not sure you're correct. McMaster defines the "rate constant" whereas century spring defines the "spring rate." Two different things. Is my understanding of this incorrect?

dtengineering 09-01-2017 23:30

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Teams in larger cities, or more industrial areas, should also be able to find a local spring manufacturer that may be able to help you out by building a custom spring.

It might cost a bit more, but you never know... when a couple enthusiastic young people ask for help, sometimes they get more than just a spring.

Jason

JamesBrown 10-01-2017 10:46

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1628363)
I'm not sure you're correct. McMaster defines the "rate constant" whereas century spring defines the "spring rate." Two different things. Is my understanding of this incorrect?

First, refer back to my disclaimer, I don't know much about springs, but here is what I can gather.

First, you are right, spring rate and rate constant are different. However I suspect that what is shown on the E-41 Spring is in fact the rate constant. After comparing quite a few manufacturers, all of them list a value of ~159 for rate, rate constant, or spring rate for these 36inch pieces of what seems to be spring stock. However at shorter lengths they list a Spring rate instead. I believe the E-41 is the equivalent of the McMaster Part, and the 5518 is a 12 inch spring made out of similar stock.

If the term Rate on the E-41 page is not an error then I am not sure I can explain the physics of that spring as all of the physical characteristic match other parts, but the Rate Constant would be off by a factor of 36.

Long story short, you are definitely right, but I think both parts actually work. But someone may want to confirm with Century Spring if they are going to order from there.

RoboChair 10-01-2017 14:07

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
https://www.mcmaster.com/#9664K66 is reasonably close to the same spring force and only 1/8" smaller diameter.

Moonsault 10-01-2017 14:31

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Does anyone know if we can use a magnet to help put the gear on the peg?

Jeff Williams 10-01-2017 17:39

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Is there someone who has one of these springs from McMaster-Carr who can measure and share how much the spring bends down when a gear is hung at the end with the barb? If we had that value, it might be easier to find an equivalent or simulate the behavior until we can get the real thing.

Libby K 11-01-2017 14:55

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1627060)
The five regional distribution centers are in Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, and Princeton (NJ).

To add to this; as one of the teams close to the NJ distribution center, one of our mentors stopped in for an order pickup today. They know us, as well as a lot of the local teams - and are excited about Steamworks!

To the point... the lovely man behind the desk let us know that other teams had come in looking for the spring, and not only did they not have it in our distribution center, but that it is currently out of stock in all fifty warehouses that he can see the stock lists for.

So it sounds like this thread of duplicates/acceptable substitutes will be super valuable! As we get ours in (we got the Amazon one) we'll take photos/video of interactions as best we can.

Whatever 11-01-2017 16:04

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Williams (Post 1628835)
Is there someone who has one of these springs from McMaster-Carr who can measure and share how much the spring bends down when a gear is hung at the end with the barb? If we had that value, it might be easier to find an equivalent or simulate the behavior until we can get the real thing.

The short answer is zero.

CCVirginia 11-01-2017 18:14

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
This is 612 - Chantilly, VA.
Identified this as a near alternative:
http://www.centuryspring.com/extension-spring-5518.html
Must order at least 5.
Cost for 5 with shipping would be $79.80.
Any interest in a group order?

ollien 11-01-2017 19:06

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatever (Post 1629474)
The short answer is zero.

What's the long answer?

Daws00 12-01-2017 13:01

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatever (Post 1629474)
The short answer is zero.

I've heard from a few other sources that the spring bends a lot when the gear is on it. Could you elaborate a little bit on this topic? Also was the gear placed in the center hole or on the other openings of gear?

Whatever 12-01-2017 13:26

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daws00 (Post 1630009)
I've heard from a few other sources that the spring bends a lot when the gear is on it. Could you elaborate a little bit on this topic? Also was the gear placed in the center hole or on the other openings of gear?

Disclaimer - I didn't acquire the spring but I have been assured by a source I trust that it was absolutely the exact spring.

From what I tried, only the 5 spoke holes fit over the hook on the end of the spring. When I put one of those openings over the spring and left the gear at the very end - the spring really did not appear to bend. It may have ever so slightly bent but for all intents and purposes it was zero.

How it behaves after 70 matches of robots slamming gears onto it may be a different story.

s-neff 12-01-2017 13:52

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Teams in the East Bay / San Francisco area - I have the McMaster spring on order & can send pieces out when it arrives in ~2 weeks. Shoot me a PM.

Using a 6" long home depot substitute for now, modifying the field piece design to get an extra 3" on the elevator. We'll probably shatter the plywood in the next couple days and I'll have to come up with something new...

mobius911 12-01-2017 13:58

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1627655)
Century Spring 5518 looks like it may be usable. Anyone agree or disagree?

I ordered one of these over the weekend when the McMaster supply looked questionable. Received it a couple days ago. Actual spring length, minus hooks on ends, is only 8". Other than that it's fine (although I don't know the actual spring rate, the size of the wire and the OD are identical to the "spec" spring).

Brian Peters 12-01-2017 14:34

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source? I FOUND MFG!
 
Hi All

McMaster gets this spring from AJ Coil in Indiana 574-353-7174

They will take private orders minimum is $75

You will need the spring specs:

36" long, OD 0.875" wire diameter 0.135"

to get the same spring

15 springs is just over the minimum cost so I recommend that you get local teams together for a single order.

They said they were surprised that McMaster was ordering so many of these but were kind enough to slip my order in the mix.

"some time you just need to ask the right questions"

Good luck with your Airship

Brian 3140 Flagship

chrisrin 12-01-2017 15:34

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Another option (also in Indiana) is Myers Spring Company: 574.753.5105

Similar process to what is described above. My friend who owns the company told me there is already a planned run of this spring coming up soon due to demand.

Big Ideas 12-01-2017 15:49

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 1627533)
Century Spring product number C-333 is very similar in diameter (O.D. And wire) and just happens to be 9" long. You'd still have to cut the ends off, but there should be a tonne of these around.

https://www.amazon.ca/Century-Spring.../dp/B000BD6BUE

And I warned the woman I spoke to at Essentra Components to expect a surge of orders. FIRST can have that effect...

Jason

CHECK YOUR SPECS.
A 9" long extension spring is 9" from loop inside to loop inside. So the length after cutting odd the loops will be closer to 7". Also some one should see if there are springs to the OD and WD that are 2x longer that can be cut down.

I hope FIRST is monitoring this thread and getting the idea that they might have spoken with MMC before kickoff, to warn them of the response.

chrisrin 12-01-2017 16:15

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Work from my friend at Myers is the springs are 9" long - they probably cut the 36" McM one into four 9" springs. I suspect a bolt is mounted from the back that is the same diameter as the interior diameter of the spring, and the spring is somehow mounted to the bolt on the front, but I could be wrong.

EricWilliams 13-01-2017 09:43

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
We actually received our spec spring yesterday. I'm not sure if this was just because we were one of the first to order, pure luck, or a sign that McMaster might have pulled some magic strings and got additional inventory in.

We have not cut our spring to length yet, but did manage to get a piece of 3/4" SCH 40 PVC pipe jammed into one end in such a way that we're going to have to invent a clever way to remove it.

I'm offering to do limited testing with the limited resources we do have, assuming we can restore the spring to it's original un-PVC'ed state.

caffel 13-01-2017 19:36

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source, Hardware store, Century # c-333
 
This is an extension spring 9" long with the exact same diameter and wire size. Century item # C-333.
Once you cut off the loops on the end its a little short but just the same stiffness as the one specified.
C Affel, Mentor FRC 423.

JR0405 13-01-2017 19:51

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Andymark has apparently ordered some but they won't be in stock until 1/24/17

http://andymark.com/spring

phurley67 17-01-2017 16:14

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
If you are in the Metro Detroit area (we are in Canton), we have a few extras if you want to PM me and then pick up a 36" spring which according to the very friendly people at Peterson Specialty Products is a really close approximation of the McMaster Carr item (they used a different metal, that does not take to bends as well, but should have the same spring rate? -- what do I know I am a programming mentor).

They gave them to us for free, so if you are interested I will pass the extras out at the same price, just PM me and we can arrange a pickup.

The Doctor 17-01-2017 16:25

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1629496)
Did you inform McMaster Carr that up to 3000+ FRC teams would all be attempting to acquire a very specific spring ASAP all on the same weekend?

Maybe they didn't?

JoeRames 20-01-2017 19:08

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Sorry for this suggesting. This place said they had inventory, but then didn't reply to emails and phone calls. Finally got through and they said they were on backorder. Cancelled order.

Billfred 20-01-2017 19:37

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JR0405 (Post 1630848)
Andymark has apparently ordered some but they won't be in stock until 1/24/17

http://andymark.com/spring

Update: They're in stock on the website now. :)

(Full disclosure of the painfully obvious: I work at AndyMark.)

Ari423 20-01-2017 19:47

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1634203)
Update: They're in stock on the website now. :)

(Full disclosure of the painfully obvious: I work at AndyMark.)

Just to be clear: these are the McMaster springs listed in the manual not an "identical" spring from another source, correct?

JR0405 20-01-2017 19:52

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1634207)
Just to be clear: these are the McMaster springs listed in the manual not an "identical" spring from another source, correct?

Unless billfred or someone else from andymark can confirm otherwise the product description on their website says "This is a steel compression spring, similar to the one used in the 2017 game FIRST STEAMWORKS℠."

Billfred 20-01-2017 20:15

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1634207)
Just to be clear: these are the McMaster springs listed in the manual not an "identical" spring from another source, correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR0405 (Post 1634209)
Unless billfred or someone else from andymark can confirm otherwise the product description on their website says "This is a steel compression spring, similar to the one used in the 2017 game FIRST STEAMWORKS℠."

Correct, similar. AndyMark worked with a spring manufacturer here in Indiana to get a supply of springs with the same outside diameter and wire diameter as the official one so teams can practice on something comparable. We did not source them from McMaster-Carr (at this point, who could?), and we are not advertising them as such.

Close counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and hopefully lift springs.

Siri 20-01-2017 21:00

Re: Lift Peg (Spring) Source?
 
I don't see this cross-posted yet. For Century in particular, but anyone looking to source their spring from another vendor should see this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahartnet (Post 1634113)
Our McMaster one came in today. I took it over to the Robonauts so we could do a direct comparison between the century one they got with identical specs to the mcmaster one as far as I can tell (https://www.mcmaster.com/#9664k68 vs http://www.centuryspring.com/extensi...ings-e-41.html) They behave very differently.

Foreground picture is the century one, background one is the mcmaster. Heading over to FIRST Q&A now to ask if they're only going to source the spring from McMaster. Aw man, just missed being the cheesy poof question: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/255



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