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-   -   Fuel Vs. Gears (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153173)

Cory 08-01-2017 03:35

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aventek (Post 1626928)
That is a very valid point, my main argument there is that you have to have a semi-fast shooter to make all 10 reliably within 15 seconds.

I fully expect Einstein alliances to put 100+ balls in the high goal in auto.

Chak 08-01-2017 04:00

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkonn (Post 1626940)
As such, a single robot probably can't get the RP from turning all 4 rotors.

Probably? Time to watch out for that robot at worlds then. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627049)
I fully expect Einstein alliances to put 100+ balls in the high goal in auto.

I agree, however (credit to pilleya for pointing this out):
Quote:

Originally Posted by Manual 3.11.4
A BOILER processes FUEL in to steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL

So during autonomous period itself, only about 15*5=75 balls can be scored. How would the other balls be counted, if they aren't counted before autonomous ends?
It seems strange that FIRST would limit the dream of the perfect auto with a slow ball counter. To the Q&A we go!

thatnameistaken 08-01-2017 07:00

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chak (Post 1627054)
So during autonomous period itself, only about 15*5=75 balls can be scored. How would the other balls be counted, if they aren't counted before autonomous ends?
It seems strange that FIRST would limit the dream of the perfect auto with a slow ball counter. To the Q&A we go!

They would be scored in tele-op, as mentioned in the field tour videos. FIRST pretty much states this is by design, so I don't think posting in the Q&A will change anything.

Gdeaver 08-01-2017 07:44

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Gears are all about cycle time. Look back to 2014 for an idea on cycle times. Now factor in the field is covered in fuel. If all the bins are dumped on the field, that's one mess of balls. Now what is the center line of a ball and what is the bumper height. What happens when your robot's bumper contacts the balls?
If your going to do gears, figure out how to drive in a sea of balls.

GeeTwo 08-01-2017 08:27

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
At this point, we're thinking gears as our primary function (and a rope climb of course).

If these both go smoothly, we have two likely paths for an additional manipulator:

Bee able to gather balls in passing and dump them into the low goal or at the same height as the HOPPER (we'll need to do tall configuration for this) to facilitate passing fuel to a high goal scorer who is set up to load at the HOPPER. We'll be sure to have an optional autonomous mode which begins with dumping our ten pre-load fuel (into an alliance partner) before scoring our gear.

Gather gears from the floor (and get them to our hanger).

Jellypickles234 08-01-2017 09:30

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MAXOFLIFE (Post 1626936)
Actually, the autonomous gear is worth 60 points. This means that after you place the first gear in teleop, you're still at a 20 point deficit. Now you need to score 60 balls in the top goal to balance the score. While this is doable, it's still a significant inequality. The one rank point earned by reaching 40 kPA is nice, but not as good two rank points from simply winning the match.

I think he was saying that if you score the 10 fuel in the high efficiency boiler that is 10 points and 10 kPa, so when you score your pre-loaded gear for 40 points in teleop you are now 10 points behind the 60 point autonomous gear.

Aventek 08-01-2017 09:36

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by who716 (Post 1627043)
Although a lot of what you say makes sense that is one of the things I like the most about first as I see it alittle different.
I see the potential for a very fast shooter to lock up 40kpa in autonomous thus giving then a ranking point within the first 15 secounds. After auto it takes 3 times as long to reach the 40kpa limit tending it rather useless unless in a game that can both alliances can turn all four rotors...
Basically in my opinion hitting the top goal in auto an being able to hit 20+ in 15 secound which should not be hard. Makes get the extra ranking point a ton simpler and quicker
40 high goal is auto equals a ranking point
120 high goals in Telekom is a ranking point
Don't get me started on low goals

Except the thing you are forgetting is that you can only start with 10 balls in your robot, making 10kPa the cap.

NShep98 08-01-2017 09:40

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aventek (Post 1627101)
Except the thing you are forgetting is that you can only start with 10 balls in your robot, making 10kPa the cap.

If you can trigger the hopper and collect and shoot those balls, it is possible to reach 40 kPa in auto

Jellypickles234 08-01-2017 09:57

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NShep98 (Post 1627103)
If you can trigger the hopper and collect and shoot those balls, it is possible to reach 40 kPa in auto

Also that amount is under the hypothetical 75 fuel limit for counting during autonomous (15 sec * 5 fuel/sec)

engunneer 08-01-2017 10:06

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellypickles234 (Post 1627108)
Also that amount is under the hypothetical 75 fuel limit for counting during autonomous (15 sec * 5 fuel/sec)

realistically, this is helped timewise by shooting at both goals. our team is discussing this option. This brings the 40kPa fuel processing time from 10 seconds to around 6.

hydroptix 08-01-2017 10:34

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Team 1571 is considering the possibility of shooting multiple fuel into the high goal at the same time. Each fuel is 5 in. wide, and the high goal is 21.5 inches wide with a decently accurate shooter (vision targeting will be handy here) it is possible to realistically score 2 or 3 fuel at the same time.

Daniel_LaFleur 08-01-2017 10:42

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1627113)
realistically, this is helped timewise by shooting at both goals. our team is discussing this option. This brings the 40kPa fuel processing time from 10 seconds to around 6.

Is this true?
Is it 5 fuel/sec in the low goal and 5 fuel/sec in the high goal?
or is it just 5 fuel/sec?

engunneer 08-01-2017 10:50

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1627128)
Is this true?
Is it 5 fuel/sec in the low goal and 5 fuel/sec in the high goal?
or is it just 5 fuel/sec?

the high goal and low goal have separate processing and counting. Each averages ~5/sec

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.11.4
A BOILER processes FUEL in to steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL


mannybjh 08-01-2017 10:54

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
We debated the ability of just gears because they give a lot of points. But in order to get a Ranking Point, assuming you are the only robot placing gears, you need to make about 12 shuttle runs between the feeder and the airship. In previous years and games, some of the best teams were only able to make 7 or 8 runs across the field. We decided that is was seemingly impossible to get a Ranking Point by yourself. Just my thoughts.

Azelf482 08-01-2017 11:08

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NShep98 (Post 1626843)
I think a lot of teams are going to prioritize gears over fuel. My concern with this is that gear-specific robots are a lot easier to defend against. There is no key to provide any protection, and your only choice to acquire gears is to traverse the field multiple times. I doubt we will see more than 2 rotors activated early on.

There is, however, a tech foul given to an opposing team if an opposing robot touches your robot with any part of it inside your retrieval zone, regardless of who initiates the contact (Rule G13). If your robot can reach the retrieval zone with a reasonable amount of speed, most robots won't be able to defend against you obtaining the gear. Even if they try not to touch you, in the retrieval zone, bumping them to still gives them a tech foul, because no one can touch you in the retrieval zone.

While it's true an opposing robot can just prevent you from reaching the retrieval zone in the first place, that's a lot harder to do, and depending on the robot, not worth the time and the points they could be scoring instead of preventing you from scoring.


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