Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   Rules/Strategy (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Fuel Vs. Gears (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153173)

chrisrin 08-01-2017 22:17

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
What assumptions are folks making as far as achievable success % shooting high fuel goals given the type of ball, size & height of the goal opening, etc.? For a top high-shooting team vs. average high-shooting team? I've seen 70% as a target - what about that?

Also, shooting rate (balls-per-sec) projections for top team vs. average team? Target the max processing rate of 5 per sec? Seems like teams may need to shoot 1 at a time until aimed and then turn on a more rapid fire mode.

Zebra_Fact_Man 09-01-2017 00:32

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627049)
I fully expect Einstein alliances to put 100+ balls in the high goal in auto.

I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.

100 balls would require 2 robots to each shoot with a minimum 83.3% shot accuracy (more if you don't get all the balls from the hopper), and only gives you 4 seconds to travel to the hopper, collect the balls, and aim. I just don't see 2 robot of this caliber/skillset. ending up on the same alliance.

Doug G 09-01-2017 02:28

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1627619)
I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.

I think this is the grand poobaa auto with this game... like the 2 ball auto last year or the 2/3 ball auto in '14. If a robot or alliance can get 40 balls in the top boiler in Auto... you can spend the rest of the game cycling the gears. As mentioned previously... it is definitely feasible and we will see the top teams inch closer and closer to achieving it at each regional they attend. By champs, there will be teams that can pull this off.

Cory 09-01-2017 02:34

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1627619)
I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.

100 balls would require 2 robots to each shoot with a minimum 83.3% shot accuracy (more if you don't get all the balls from the hopper), and only gives you 4 seconds to travel to the hopper, collect the balls, and aim. I just don't see 2 robot of this caliber/skillset. ending up on the same alliance.

I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.

Joe G. 09-01-2017 02:40

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627668)
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.

Agreed. Collection is pretty easy -- trip the dump so that you collect them in the air from the far bin, then turn your intake on on the way to the boiler to scoop many of the remaining balls off the floor as possible. Should be able to get 70+ in the robot that way. Additionally, I think many people are seriously underestimating the potential fire rate of elite shooters in this game. Comparing to past games with heavy and large game pieces that largely did not incentivize fire rate optimization is not a good way to gauge how fast teams that really try to pump balls through their robots as fast as possible are going to be. Pure throughput is going to be more like lunacy dumpers than any recent more conventional "shooting" game, and also like Lunacy, absolute accuracy isn't as important due to the huge number of balls on the field. Like Lunacy, I do not think a single ball wide, turreted, angle adjustable shooter with heavy camera control is optimal for this game because it forces your game pieces to come out single file.

Additionally, I think people may be making too much of the distinction between the act of cycling gears, and the act of cycling fuel. With so many game pieces and no possession limit, you don't really need to target specific ones. I'm guessing that a robot that just puts its intake on the ground while making a beeline to/from the feeder station to deliver a gear is going to pick up an appreciable percentage of their storage capacity without making any special effort. Doubly so if the human players just dump fuel on the ground instead of waiting for the robot. Even if your primary match strategy revolves around gear cycles, why not take some shots at the boiler while you're down at that end of the field anyways, and you have the fuel? Not a lot of added time, for potentially significant added benefit.

indubitably 09-01-2017 03:04

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627668)
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.

Do you expect the official high goal to process fuel at a rate faster than 5 per second? Because if not, this feat isn't even possible (100 balls / 5 balls per second) = 20 seconds. It would need to be AT LEAST 25% faster to be possible and likely 50% faster when factoring in scoring latency, hang time of the first shot, and robot travel time to the hopper.

Cory 09-01-2017 03:24

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indubitably (Post 1627681)
Do you expect the official high goal to process fuel at a rate faster than 5 per second? Because if not, this feat isn't even possible (100 balls / 5 balls per second) = 20 seconds. It would need to be AT LEAST 25% faster to be possible and likely 50% faster when factoring in scoring latency, hang time of the first shot, and robot travel time to the hopper.

My personal opinion is that the scoring feeder is going to be a disaster, because automated scoring has never worked properly in a FRC game before and now they're also introducing moving parts.

That being said, 5 balls per second is the average and it counts faster with more balls in. So if it's functioning correctly it needs to count 100 balls in say 8-10s which seems more reasonable.

In reality an alliance may score 100 balls in auto but not have 20+ counted until teleop. That would suck, but they still put 100 balls in the goal in auto, which is impressive.

ollien 09-01-2017 03:27

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627684)
My personal opinion is that the scoring feeder is going to be a disaster, because automated scoring has never worked properly in a FRC game before and now they're also introducing moving parts.

Did they fail in Stronghold? I personally don't recall any time that they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627684)
In reality an alliance may score 100 balls in auto but not have 20+ counted until teleop. That would suck, but they still put 100 balls in the goal in auto, which is impressive.

I am of the opinion that, at least for teleop, the match should not be considered ended until the boilers are fully processed. That being said, I'm conflicted as to whether robots should sit idly on the field while we wait for auto points to be processed in the same way.

natejo99 09-01-2017 08:55

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
At the moment, Team 74 is focusing on a fuel mechanism. We are unsure of what we will be focusing on with strategy, but we figured a shooter that does what we want is going to be harder to accomplish than a mechanism that is able to manipulate gears.
I fully expect good teams to be able to score fuel and gears, probably at the same time. With the turret designs we have seen in the past years(2012 and 2016 immediately come to mind) I don't think that's an improbability. Collection of balls will happen on the way to get the gear from the retrieval zone, and while the robots are scoring the gear, they will be able to shoot into the high goal. This was our teams largest point of discussion after kickoff, and I would be surprised if it didn't happen.

pfreivald 09-01-2017 09:14

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
In making this determination, I feel like I'm missing something that should be in the rules but isn't, and I want to make sure I have it right (or be corrected if I'm wrong):

Opponents can only be in your key for up to five seconds at a time, but they can contact whatever they want to (e.g. ram the heck out of you while you're trying to shoot) and only need to back out for a split second before doing so again.

Yes?

engunneer 09-01-2017 09:24

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1627751)
In making this determination, I feel like I'm missing something that should be in the rules but isn't, and I want to make sure I have it right (or be corrected if I'm wrong):

Opponents can only be in your key for up to five seconds at a time, but they can contact whatever they want to (e.g. ram the heck out of you while you're trying to shoot) and only need to back out for a split second before doing so again.

Yes?

that is my understanding. I think the intent is not to prevent defensive contact. The intent appears to be blocking the parking space.

Donut 09-01-2017 09:33

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1627757)
that is my understanding. I think the intent is not to prevent defensive contact. The intent appears to be blocking the parking space.

I have the same take on this. This isn't your Rebound Rumble key.

pfreivald 09-01-2017 10:32

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Thanks.

It seems to me that shooting is going to be a lot harder when any mobile BLT will be able to hammer on you while you're doing it.

JesseK 09-01-2017 10:47

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1627668)
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.

Even if it's 75% accuracy, and then it's 50 points in auto and the rest in teleop - 75 balls in the boiler in auto forces the other alliance to SPRINT to clear balls at the start of teleop. Else they face a large quantity of overflow in the early seconds of teleop. Then, with another 100 balls or so (20 seconds in, you think?) they better have a bot ready to receive balls, else one of their 3 bins will get dumped on the floor in front of all of your drivers. Wicked, vicious ball cycles...

Just be sure to drop your auton gear for your partner to use in teleop ;).

Daniel_LaFleur 09-01-2017 10:49

Re: Fuel Vs. Gears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1627805)
Thanks.

It seems to me that shooting is going to be a lot harder when any mobile BLT will be able to hammer on you while you're doing it.

Yup.

The box on wheels will be useful this game ;)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:56.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi