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-   -   Velcro on rope? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153264)

viggy96 08-01-2017 22:16

Velcro on rope?
 
Can we put velcro on our rope? We plan on using a ratchet strap for our rope. Can we put velcro on it in order to aid climbing?

ollien 08-01-2017 22:20

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Are you saying you want the velcro from your robot to attach to the rope, or you want velcro to be a part of your rope?

I would hazard a guess and say yes to the former, and no to the latter. I would not consider velcro to be "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together," as I04 mandates.

SenorZ 08-01-2017 23:58

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
^ agree.
I'd just try using the strap alone and see how it works. If it slips, try a grippier rope.

andrewytiger 09-01-2017 00:33

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
One of the robot in 3 days used velcro to make the climbing process much easier. However, I think they will adjust the rules to prevent people from doing something like this. I would be wary about using velcro on your rope.

Purpose 09-01-2017 00:34

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I believe OP is talking about this: https://youtu.be/m7RNTi1HI3Y?t=259

I was wondering this as well. Basically RI3D 1.0 interpreted the following rule in a pretty optimistic way:

Rope must "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying."

Velcro isn't "heat shrink or tape" nor is it a "coating material to prevent fraying". That kinda makes me think that it's not legal.

That being said, there's a perfectly decent chance that it COULD be legal. It's just really not very clear imo.

ollien 09-01-2017 00:37

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Purpose (Post 1627624)
I believe OP is talking about this: https://youtu.be/m7RNTi1HI3Y?t=259

I was wondering this as well. Basically RI3D 1.0 interpreted the following rule in a pretty optimistic way:

Rope must "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying."

Velcro isn't "heat shrink or tape" nor is it a "coating material to prevent fraying". That kinda makes me think that it's not legal.

That being said, there's a perfectly decent chance that it COULD be legal. It's just really not very clear imo.

Oh wow I had just watched that video prior to posting. Skimming through it, I didn't realize they used velcro /as/ their rope. I was under the impression that they were using some kind of nylon cord that attached to velcro well.

mrnoble 09-01-2017 00:42

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
The loop portion of Velcro sure looks woven to me. It's non-metallic, fibrous, and flexible. I'll wait for the q&a ruling before we go all-in on the design but it currently looks pretty viable.

kaliken 09-01-2017 00:45

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Even the velcro website says that they are woven....Legal in my mind.

http://www.velcro.com/business/produ...-hook-and-loop

nuclearnerd 09-01-2017 00:46

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
It looks ridiculously viable. So much so, I'm having trouble thinking any other method is better.

That said, if they rule the loop side of velcro doesn't work, can we just use really fuzzy rope ? :)

thedude019 09-01-2017 01:25

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I've been wondering the same thing. I don't believe its legal to attach the Velcro to the rope, but may be legal to use Velcro as the rope.

RoboAlum 09-01-2017 02:26

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Hanging off the side of the bridge looked viable until it was said otherwise I do see this being made against the rules or for FIRST to do it program wide on the rope provided

ollien 09-01-2017 02:30

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboAlum (Post 1627664)
Hanging off the side of the bridge looked viable until it was said otherwise I do see this being made against the rules or for FIRST to do it program wide on the rope provided

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but you cannot use the side of the airship (which I assume is what you meant by the "bridge") to climb. G15 makes that clear.

Bluman56 09-01-2017 02:43

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1627666)
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but you cannot use the side of the airship (which I assume is what you meant by the "bridge") to climb. G15 makes that clear.

In 2012, 118 at their first regional unveiled a mechanism that grappled onto the side of a bridge and lifted their robot up while grappling it to ensure a much simpler 3 robot balance since their robot didn't take up any space on the platform. It was very quickly deemed illegal. I believe that is what the reference is to.

ollien 09-01-2017 02:44

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluman56 (Post 1627671)
In 2012, 118 at their first regional unveiled a mechanism that grappled onto the side of a bridge and lifted their robot up while grappling it to ensure a much simpler 3 robot balance since their robot didn't take up any space on the platform. It was very quickly deemed illegal. I believe that is what the reference is to.

IIRC, that wasn't ruled illegal as much as it was ruled unsafe.

RoboAlum 09-01-2017 02:47

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluman56 (Post 1627671)
In 2012, 118 at their first regional unveiled a mechanism that grappled onto the side of a bridge and lifted their robot up while grappling it to ensure a much simpler 3 robot balance since their robot didn't take up any space on the platform. It was very quickly deemed illegal. I believe that is what the reference is to.

Yes that is what I meant with the growth of newer teams I think I meant have to start referencing things

mrnoble 09-01-2017 08:03

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Using loop Velcro as the rope seems like such a viable hack that it wouldn't surprise me at all for the GDC to rule it illegal, just because it breaks the endgame. We will wait and see.

Kellen Hill 09-01-2017 08:38

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I am confused. Some people seem to think that putting a loop in a rope and using a hook to attach to it is somehow different than using hundreds of hooks to attach to hundreds of loops using Velcro.

And to suggest that Velcro isn't "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" is just ridiculous. If not by one of those methods, how do you think it's held together?

The only issues I see with Velcro would be any inclusion of adhesive on the Velcro and how you would go about attaching it the end of your rope. Picking the right Velcro to use and being able to "twist, tie, weave, or braid" it to the rest of your rope are the things to watch out for.

In my mind, if you disallow the general use of Velcro for climbing, you also disallow putting a hook into a loop to then climb.

carpedav000 09-01-2017 08:53

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Remember, if you want to use hook-end vecro as your rop material you can cut a length of it into strips and braid the strips together, therefore making it a perfectly legal rope.

Joe Johnson 09-01-2017 09:07

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
What does FIRST want to accomplish with the "end game" feature of their game design? Who can say for sure but I can guess that it is exciting finishes to matches.

In what way does an easily implemented solution to the problem damage this goal?

FIRST was about as open and they could possibly have been regarding the defintion of "ROPE". I think A) this is perfectly within the rules and B) FIRST will be delighted if 90% of teams are off the ground at the end of matches.

Bottom line: I will be extremely surprised if FIRST makes this illegal.

Callin' 'em as I sees 'em.

Dr. Joe J.

Jcarbon 09-01-2017 09:10

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
We've found a lot of success with fraying the end of a rope and rubbing it to make it frizzy and fluffy. Then we put velcro on the roller and it sticks really well. This is a little less questionable than using velcro as the rope.

Christopher149 09-01-2017 09:35

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellen Hill (Post 1627728)
And to suggest that Velcro isn't "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" is just ridiculous. If not by one of those methods, how do you think it's held together?

The only issues I see with Velcro would be any inclusion of adhesive on the Velcro and how you would go about attaching it the end of your rope. Picking the right Velcro to use and being able to "twist, tie, weave, or braid" it to the rest of your rope are the things to watch out for.

Is stitching with thread (to attach non-adhesive velcro to another similar strap) not just a kind of "tying" using a different flexible fiber?

Kellen Hill 09-01-2017 09:40

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher149 (Post 1627765)
Is stitching with thread (to attach non-adhesive velcro to another similar strap) not just a kind of "tying" using a different flexible fiber?

Exactly. That would be entirely legal from my perspective. You just need to make sure you attach it via a legal method instead of using zip ties, adhesive, or some other non-legal method.

tig567899 09-01-2017 10:51

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

...which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape... to prevent fraying.
If I'm using velcro tape to prevent fraying, and there's no substitute, then... that's in the rules... My robot just happened to attach to that velcro and then pull itself up. :D

Ari423 09-01-2017 11:13

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1627824)
If I'm using velcro tape to prevent fraying, and there's no substitute, then... that's in the rules... My robot just happened to attach to that velcro and then pull itself up. :D

True...unless the GDC posts an update disallowing the anti-fraying method from helping you climb. Not saying whether they will or they won't, just be on the look out for that update if you choose to go this route.

Cal578 09-01-2017 13:03

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellen Hill (Post 1627728)
I am confused. Some people seem to think that putting a loop in a rope and using a hook to attach to it is somehow different than using hundreds of hooks to attach to hundreds of loops using Velcro.

And to suggest that Velcro isn't "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" is just ridiculous. If not by one of those methods, how do you think it's held together?

The only issues I see with Velcro would be any inclusion of adhesive on the Velcro and how you would go about attaching it the end of your rope. Picking the right Velcro to use and being able to "twist, tie, weave, or braid" it to the rest of your rope are the things to watch out for.

In my mind, if you disallow the general use of Velcro for climbing, you also disallow putting a hook into a loop to then climb.

I have a concern about equating ROPE (per Game Manual definition) and Velcro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rule I04-D
consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying.

(bolding mine)

Most Velcro has a plastic backing, and at least the hooks (and often the loops) are made of plastic. I think plastic will not be accepted as a "fiber". If your Velcro "rope" has plastic in it throughout the entire length, I do not think it will be accepted.

riley.jean23 09-01-2017 13:27

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1627554)
Are you saying you want the velcro from your robot to attach to the rope, or you want velcro to be a part of your rope?

I would hazard a guess and say yes to the former, and no to the latter. I would not consider velcro to be "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together," as I04 mandates.

Couldn't you just weave velcro into a rope?

Kellen Hill 09-01-2017 13:38

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal578 (Post 1627933)
I have a concern about equating ROPE (per Game Manual definition) and Velcro.

(bolding mine)

Most Velcro has a plastic backing, and at least the hooks (and often the loops) are made of plastic. I think plastic will not be accepted as a "fiber". If your Velcro "rope" has plastic in it throughout the entire length, I do not think it will be accepted.


Fiber: "a thread or filament from which a vegetable tissue, mineral substance, or textile is formed."

I see no reason why plastic would not meet this definition.

Also, if you plan on ruling out plastic, you would also rule out quite a few chord and rope options in addition to Velcro.

angelah 09-01-2017 13:39

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Velcro only has a plastic backing when it is intended to stick on. This is the kind most robotics folks are more familiar with. Most Velcro doesn't, though, because it is intended to be sewn on.

Ropes made of plastic are pretty common. I'm pretty sure one of the ropes in the picture in the game manual could be plastic even. :D

I will be interested to see how they clarify this in the Q&A. They may outlaw Velcro, but I think they will have to add language to the rule to do so.

jvriezen 09-01-2017 15:59

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcarbon (Post 1627749)
We've found a lot of success with fraying the end of a rope and rubbing it to make it frizzy and fluffy. Then we put velcro on the roller and it sticks really well. This is a little less questionable than using velcro as the rope.

As long as your frizzy and fluffy part doesn't exceed the 1" diameter.

jnicho15 09-01-2017 16:51

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jvriezen (Post 1628082)
As long as your frizzy and fluffy part doesn't exceed the 1" diameter.

What if that frizziness also happens to be over a knot?

garyjune 09-01-2017 20:51

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Would it be allowed to have a rope made from a "fuzzy" material that Velcro is able to attach to?

mman1506 09-01-2017 20:55

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garyjune (Post 1628269)
Would it be allowed to have a rope made from a "fuzzy" material that Velcro is able to attach to?

Yes, I'd recommend trying to attack a nylon webbing strap with those pet fur brushes with tiny metal teeth to make it fuzzy. It's the same material as fuzzy velcro.

rich2202 09-01-2017 21:16

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude019 (Post 1627645)
but may be legal to use Velcro as the rope.

^^^ this

Make your own rope by braiding in a strand of Velcro.

Quote:

consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together
Nothing requires all the "strands" to be of the same material. Anyone know how to braid a 4 strand rope?

Jpatterson1710 10-01-2017 00:16

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1628282)
Anyone know how to braid a 4 strand rope?

YouTube does!

Pendulum^-1 10-01-2017 12:33

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
From the first sentence of section 3.8:

"A ROPE is a strong, thick string composed of twisted or braided strands of manila, hemp, flax, or the like...."

Personally, I'd never describe a velcro strap as a "string." It may be woven, etc, but I'd not consider it a string.

I strongly suspect that the GDC will rule velcro straps to not qualify as any sort of string.

engunneer 10-01-2017 12:46

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendulum^-1 (Post 1628635)
From the first sentence of section 3.8:

"A ROPE is a strong, thick string composed of twisted or braided strands of manila, hemp, flax, or the like...."

Personally, I'd never describe a velcro strap as a "string." It may be woven, etc, but I'd not consider it a string.

I strongly suspect that the GDC will rule velcro straps to not qualify as any sort of string.

if it is woven entirely of nylon strands, I think it will get passed. obviously we have to wait for the Q&A or first team update, which should be out in a few hours.

Mr V 10-01-2017 12:48

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
The rules state that you can "whip" the final 4" of the rope to prevent it from fraying. If velcro can't be used to whip it then use some fuzzy yarn, I'm pretty certain that you can find something that the hook side will grab well enough.

Stealth101 10-01-2017 15:14

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by viggy96 (Post 1627549)
Can we put velcro on our rope? We plan on using a ratchet strap for our rope. Can we put velcro on it in order to aid climbing?

Why not just use the strap itself as the rope? Because isn't the strap a woven marterial

KevinG 10-01-2017 16:00

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
My own thoughts:

There does not appear to be any restriction on the construction of the "rope" itself, beyond the maximum width (not diameter) and that it must consist of non-metallic fibers that are "twisted, tied, braided, or woven together". Velcro itself is a piece of webbing woven together with strands to form either the hook or the loop. It is absolutely fibers that are woven together. That said you couldn't take two sticky-backed pieces of Velcro and stick them together, but you could sew them.

The rope is considered part of the arena, therefore the robot rules don't apply. There is no rule saying that an arena piece can't be covered in hook tape, or that it can't connect to the carpet. Arguably you could make a "rope" long enough to touch the carpet and actually adhere to it using hook tape.

R05 bans the use of hoop and loop for "tractions devices" which are defined as "all parts of the ROBOT that are designed to transmit any propulsive and/or braking forces between the ROBOT and FIELD carpet." So unless your climbing mechanism also interfaces with the field carpet then R05 would not apply to it.

R08 specifically states that the rope, once removed from the davit, is no longer part of the field. So you can use a winding mechanism or something else that would be difficult to quickly remove.

So barring further clarification by FIRST it seems like a hook and loop fastener "rope" would be perfectly legal. That said don't be surprised if FIRST doesn't clarify this at some point, particularly since it seems like a fairly easy solution that goes against the spirit of a "rope".

Please note that the above comments are my personal thoughts and do not reflect any official stance on the part of FIRST or the Chesapeake District. They are, at best, a snapshot of how I would personally interpret the rules as available should I encounter it at a competition as a RI/LRI.

Tom Line 10-01-2017 16:01

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by viggy96 (Post 1627549)
Can we put velcro on our rope? We plan on using a ratchet strap for our rope. Can we put velcro on it in order to aid climbing?

I suggest you put send that in as a Q&A to the official first folks. Not to quibble, but a lot of people are really lawyering it up on this whole thing. A bus has 4 wheels, and engine, and a whole lot of other similarities to a car, but most would say it isn't a car. Likewise, webbing, tie-down straps, and velcro runs may have many characteristics of rope, but they aren't called rope.

Just don't walk the edge of the rule and be surprised if you fall off. Ask the question and be sure.

carpedav000 10-01-2017 16:08

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
If this isn't in the week 1 rule update, then it'll probably be legal. Wasn't that when they released the climbing rule that ruined it last year?

Bruceb 10-01-2017 16:19

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
when will the first rule update be published?

KevinG 10-01-2017 16:30

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruceb (Post 1628796)
when will the first rule update be published?

The Q&A opens tomorrow. Rules updates are usually done weekly I think?

EricH 10-01-2017 18:43

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinG (Post 1628800)
The Q&A opens tomorrow. Rules updates are usually done weekly I think?

Bi-weekly. TU#1 is out now, and doesn't address the question. TU#2 is due out on Friday, and if someone asks in Q&A and Velcro is ruled illegal I'd bet on it being in TU#2, as there's this discussion going on...

Updates are Tuesdays and Fridays until competition season, when they're on Tuesdays only.

KevinG 10-01-2017 23:44

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628876)
Bi-weekly. TU#1 is out now, and doesn't address the question. TU#2 is due out on Friday, and if someone asks in Q&A and Velcro is ruled illegal I'd bet on it being in TU#2, as there's this discussion going on...

Updates are Tuesdays and Fridays until competition season, when they're on Tuesdays only.

Cool, thanks.

My guess is that they will add a minimum dimension for the rope, and specify diameter instead of width. Whether or not they ban Velcro will be particularly interesting.

engunneer 11-01-2017 00:02

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

EricH 11-01-2017 01:05

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629067)
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

Yep--and some non-round rope might actually be better than round rope. See also "lifting sling".

KevinG 11-01-2017 08:00

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629067)
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

To eliminate webbing. Just because it's legal now doesn't mean it will be legal in a week. It was speculation.

engunneer 11-01-2017 08:13

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinG (Post 1629128)
To eliminate webbing. Just because it's legal now doesn't mean it will be legal in a week. It was speculation.

This is not something I would expect to change. The manual even shows a tiny grainy picture of a piece of webbing as an example.

KevinG 11-01-2017 08:52

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629135)
This is not something I would expect to change. The manual even shows a tiny grainy picture of a piece of webbing as an example.

Good point.

carpedav000 11-01-2017 08:57

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629067)
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

This applies for non round rope as well. 1" max. diameter for round rope, 1" max. width for webbing.

Chris is me 11-01-2017 09:23

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I'm honestly shocked it wasn't in Team Update 1. Somebody on the GDC has to have taken five minutes to look at RI3D. If Velcro is legal, it's really quite a lot easier than other methods as long as your winch can actuate a little to get a good wrap on it.

KevinG 11-01-2017 09:25

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1629157)
I'm honestly shocked it wasn't in Team Update 1. Somebody on the GDC has to have taken five minutes to look at RI3D. If Velcro is legal, it's really quite a lot easier than other methods as long as your winch can actuate a little to get a good wrap on it.

It absolutely would be the method we would use.

Bruceb 11-01-2017 16:45

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Just an FYI. I searched Q and A and found there are already 4 questions asking about velcro on the rope. Hopefully we will find out Friday.

Mark McLeod 12-01-2017 09:08

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629067)
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

It just has to fit through a 1" channel in the Davit.

Lil' Lavery 12-01-2017 09:33

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1629067)
Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.

FWIW, non-round objects can have a diameter as well. Diameter can apply to any convex polygon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1629157)
I'm honestly shocked it wasn't in Team Update 1. Somebody on the GDC has to have taken five minutes to look at RI3D. If Velcro is legal, it's really quite a lot easier than other methods as long as your winch can actuate a little to get a good wrap on it.

I'd hazard a guess that they're trying to make sure the entire GDC is on the same page with this, and are consulting each other to figure out the best way to respond (or update the rule). Thus not only the omission from Team Update 1, but also why the Q&A questions on the issue haven't been answered yet.

PayneTrain 12-01-2017 09:56

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1629838)
FWIW, non-round objects can have a diameter as well. Diameter can apply to any convex polygon.



I'd hazard a guess that they're trying to make sure the entire GDC is on the same page with this, and are consulting each other to figure out the best way to respond (or update the rule). Thus not only the omission from Team Update 1, but also why the Q&A questions on the issue haven't been answered yet.

Yeah, I would expect them to sit on the issue until TU2 comes out on Friday.

Bitwise 12-01-2017 13:09

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
For those lobbying for the all-velcro option, consider this. The Airship Field Tour video (~3:11) says the rope retention straps are made of hook and loop tape. It would be a shame if the "rope" did not deploy because it was snagged in the retention strap.

-Greg

Shavan M. 12-01-2017 16:36

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
You need to remember that Ri3D do not meet all rule requirements.

arichman1257 12-01-2017 22:21

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Q6, Q21, Q44, Q45, and Q53 all ask about velcro and ropes. They are all unanswered.
I think that, with the rules as they are set now, velcro is a legal thing. But I think that that is subject to change as they may just ban it by creating a no-velcro-on-ropes rule.

Lil' Lavery 12-01-2017 22:28

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arichman1257 (Post 1630302)
Q6, Q21, Q44, Q45, and Q53 all ask about velcro and ropes. They are all unanswered.
I think that, with the rules as they are set now, velcro is a legal thing. But I think that that is subject to change as they may just ban it by creating a no-velcro-on-ropes rule.

Q22 is a "general case" of the velcro-on-rope question. Unless they put out an update that specifically bans velcro as a I04 compliant material, it appears velcro on rope is legal so long as your twist, tie, weave, or braid the velcro into your rope.

engunneer 12-01-2017 23:56

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1630308)
Q22 is a "general case" of the velcro-on-rope question. Unless they put out an update that specifically bans velcro as a I04 compliant material, it appears velcro on rope is legal so long as your twist, tie, weave, or braid the velcro into your rope.

and there are no materials that are not flexible fibers. (no glue!)

Roboshant 13-01-2017 00:04

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Q10 about the rope materials was just answered 3 hours ago. The GDC stated "We will not provide rulings on specific designs/materials". Hopefully we get a clarification in TU2, and teams dont have to wait until week 1 to see what a robot inspector decides.....

Grim Tuesday 13-01-2017 01:03

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
This reminds me a bit of the fiasco in 2011 when people thought it would be cool to launch minibots up the pole with a spring, until it was banned a few updates in. I think the GDC does not like it when people find an aspect of the game they thought would be difficult trivial, but I am struggling to see how they can fix this one simply.

EricH 13-01-2017 01:25

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1630373)
This reminds me a bit of the fiasco in 2011 when people thought it would be cool to launch minibots up the pole with a spring, until it was banned a few updates in. I think the GDC does not like it when people find an aspect of the game they thought would be difficult trivial, but I am struggling to see how they can fix this one simply.

I think that it's relatively simple.

Is there an aspect of Velcro that is not allowable? (e.g., how are the loops attached to the backing?) Find that, and issue an announcement that that is not allowable, etc.

OR, add in a rule section/blue box that indicates Velcro as not meeting the spec. That's what they did with the pre-placed gears.



Launching minibots was banned in TU#1 (2011). The Noodle Agreement was announced as "in the process of being banned" in TU#1, but the actual implementation of that was released in TU#2 (2015). I believe it was something like TU#16 or TU#17 (or later) that banned stacking robots to start a match back in '07--AFTER that strategy was used to score points, and despite a Q&A on the topic. A fix to 6v0 was released in the update between Week 1 and Week 2 in 2010--and does anybody remember the THURSDAY update in 2014???

The GDC has their ways to put the game towards the way they want it. I suspect that they are having strong internal discussions on two topics: 1) Do we want this in the game? 2) How do we make the answer to #1 fit in the rules/Q&A?. There are a couple of cases in memory where the GDC has changed their answers mid-season, for reasons apparently including not being on the same page. I get the impression they're trying to avoid that...

Grim Tuesday 13-01-2017 01:31

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I think the difficulty in banning velcro is that it is literally "hook and loops." How do you ban small hooks and loops without banning big ones?

You are right though Eric, I was mis-remembering the 2011 rule change as being TU2, and they usually do hit the really obvious stuff with TU1. 6v0 is one of the most interesting things that happened in FIRST but at the Week 1 regional I attended (FLR) no one really did it. It would have been interesting to see if it would become taboo as the season went on without a rule change or become the dominant gameplay method. The Q & A this year seems more open to answering specific questions. A few years ago I could imagine them obnoxiously punting all velcro-based questions to LRIs with "we do not rule on specific designs" but because they have been delaying the answer to Q6 this year it seems likely it will get a real answer.

RoboAlum 13-01-2017 01:54

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
so ive moved around the velcro and planning on more of an approach 71 took with the file card drive train. using a steel wire brush roller and spinning that to grip the rope they cant ban that

rich2202 13-01-2017 08:13

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1630308)
Q22 is a "general case" of the velcro-on-rope question. ...

Quote:

Q22 Multiple Rope Materials?

Are ropes allowed to be composed of multiple different materials (each of which comply with I04)? If composed of multiple materials, must those materials be twisted/woven/stitched/braided together to satisfy I04-D, or may they be attached together by other methods? If composed of multiple materials, must each material span the entire length of the rope?
asked 2 days ago by FRC 1712 ROPE

Answer
Yes, there are no rules which require a ROPE to be composed of uniform material. Yes, a ROPE must be twisted, tied, woven, or braided, per I04-D. There is no requirement that any component material of a ROPE span the entire length of the ROPE.

emphasis added
Seems like they are making it really easy to add velcro to the end of the rope.

RoboAlum 13-01-2017 08:35

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1630417)
Seems like they are making it really easy to add velcro to the end of the rope.

Well now there is really no reason why a team in eliminations shouldn't be able to climb that being said, I predict to win an event you will need three climbing robots.

Siri 13-01-2017 09:29

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1630373)
This reminds me a bit of the fiasco in 2011 when people thought it would be cool to launch minibots up the pole with a spring, until it was banned a few updates in. I think the GDC does not like it when people find an aspect of the game they thought would be difficult trivial, but I am struggling to see how they can fix this one simply.

I'm having flashbacks to the welding (and somewhat to the VEX parts) fiasco of that year in particular. I suspect the GDC sees velcro as potentially shaping up to be a welding style "but if you're banning this, aren't you banning this? How can you outlaw this and not this? But wait, you said--" problem. They've learned to tread carefully with Q&As like 22 above.

BigJ 13-01-2017 09:35

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I just hope this doesn't turn into a 2012-118 no-ruling-until-the-first-competition situation

Clayton Yocom 13-01-2017 13:35

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I've only quickly read it, and haven't had time to fully internalize it, but the new team update only partially answers this question for me.

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate02.pdf

Bruceb 13-01-2017 13:42

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I dont see where it answers the velcro question at all.

Grim Tuesday 13-01-2017 13:46

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Can someone explain to me what "superfusion" means?

engunneer 13-01-2017 13:47

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1630586)
Can someone explain to me what "superfusion" means?

doing something to the rope to fuse the end (to prevent fraying) AND another reason which gives an advantage (fusing in a loop, or other things that help you more then just preventing fraying)

Hitchhiker 42 13-01-2017 13:50

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Clayton Yocom (Post 1630575)
I've only quickly read it, and haven't had time to fully internalize it, but the new team update only partially answers this question for me.

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate02.pdf

A little typo on the website:
Quote:

(V1, updated Jan 13, 2017)
I'm assuming that should be V2, based on the other dates and versions listed here: http://www.firstinspires.org/resourc...nual-qa-system

Ogehsim 13-01-2017 13:56

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1630586)
Can someone explain to me what "superfusion" means?

Quote:

For example, consider the limitation of the purpose of whipping or fusing to prevent fraying in I04-D and that FIRST Robotics Community members are innovative and may discover a way to fuse the end of the ROPE in a way that can be leveraged for competitive advantage. This “superfusion” extends the fusing’s purpose beyond only preventing fraying.
superfusion = a method of whipping/fusing/etc the end of the rope that provides some competitive advantage other than preventing fraying

lukekaiser 13-01-2017 14:24

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
My question is couldn't someone just braid, mesh or tie a rope of less than 1 inch out of yarn that would be strong enough to support a robot, and still use the "hook Portion" of the Velcro on the robots spooling mechanism? I feel like that would be really easy to create, and still have the "Velcro" properties that everyone is trying to achieve.

Lil' Lavery 13-01-2017 14:32

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lukekaiser (Post 1630632)
My question is couldn't someone just braid, mesh or tie a rope of less than 1 inch out of yarn that would be strong enough to support a robot, and still use the "hook Portion" of the Velcro on the robots spooling mechanism? I feel like that would be really easy to create, and still have the "Velcro" properties that everyone is trying to achieve.

There is currently nothing in the rules or Q&A that is preventing that.

Siri 13-01-2017 14:39

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1630597)
A little typo on the website:


I'm assuming that should be V2, based on the other dates and versions listed here: http://www.firstinspires.org/resourc...nual-qa-system

Section 9 Inspection? I think they're still on V1. They are crazy software people who start with V0, and TU1 didn't change Section 9 (so only one update in TU2, so V0-->V1).

KevinG 13-01-2017 18:15

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogehsim (Post 1630603)
superfusion = a method of whipping/fusing/etc the end of the rope that provides some competitive advantage other than preventing fraying

Like melting the end of a nylon rope into a hook.

mman1506 13-01-2017 18:16

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
More clarification from Frank! http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...need-answering

Sperkowsky 13-01-2017 18:26

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I think this was the right decision.

Would you rather an Frc game where 50% of teams can climb or 20%.

Although I still think the bring your own rope concept sorta killed the climbing aspect of this game.

ckpash88 30-01-2017 09:22

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
So my reading of the update is that I can sew a strip of Velcro the whole length of the rope (one inch webbing for us) or the last couple of inches its our choice?

RoboChair 30-01-2017 13:39

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckpash88 (Post 1638054)
So my reading of the update is that I can sew a strip of Velcro the whole length of the rope (one inch webbing for us) or the last couple of inches its our choice?

Velcro?

Yes, Velcro!

Mark McLeod 30-01-2017 13:49

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Please, hook & loop. :)

Hallry 30-01-2017 14:10

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Is it just me, or did the additions to rule I04 D and E (about the binder coat exception and the Retaining Feature not extending over 2 inches below the Davit fingers) added in Team Update 5 never get actually added to the Game Manual itself?

ckpash88 31-01-2017 11:08

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
I am not sure that you answered my question or got stuck on semantics of me calling something by a brand name.

RoboChair 31-01-2017 11:41

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckpash88 (Post 1638607)
I am not sure that you answered my question or got stuck on semantics of me calling something by a brand name.

My post was not very serious. I was referencing the chute door meme in 2015. You can put your velcro anywhere you want below the davit basically(edit:Except the bottom 4 inches). It could even be multiple pieces.

Hallry 31-01-2017 12:20

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1638625)
My post was not very serious. I was referencing the chute door meme in 2015. You can put your velcro anywhere you want below the davit basically. It could even be multiple pieces.

Except for the bottom 4 inches of the rope.

bobbysq 31-01-2017 13:12

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1638644)

Wouldn't that only be if you claim that it's to prevent fraying?

Hallry 31-01-2017 13:19

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1638659)
Wouldn't that only be if you claim that it's to prevent fraying?

I don't believe so, according to I04-D:

Quote:

consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers sewn, twisted, tied, woven, knitted, crocheted, intertwined, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of any cut end (E) which may be whipped (with material that is flexible and non-metallic) or fused only to prevent fraying.

ckpash88 31-01-2017 14:00

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
So wed be using webbing to follow along with the rule we can melt the bottom edge to avoid fraying and we would have to be 4 inch up from that to be competition legal?

ckpash88 31-01-2017 14:01

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
When I am mean 4 inches above that would be the start of the hook and loop sewn onto the webbing

RoboChair 31-01-2017 14:41

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckpash88 (Post 1638681)
When I am mean 4 inches above that would be the start of the hook and loop sewn onto the webbing

Yes, that appears to conform to the rules any way you choose to read them.

SoccerTaco 31-01-2017 17:02

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1638659)
Wouldn't that only be if you claim that it's to prevent fraying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1638664)
I don't believe so, according to I04-D:

Quote:

consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers sewn, twisted, tied, woven, knitted, crocheted, intertwined, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of any cut end (E) which may be whipped (with material that is flexible and non-metallic) or fused only to prevent fraying.
It is vague. If we were planning to have velcro on the rope I would probably seek clarification or just avoid that last 4 inches just to be safe.

But, my interpretation is the velcro should be able to extend all the way to the end of the rope. Here is why I think that:

In the answer to Question 184, they emphasize "may be":
"except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of any cut end (E) which may be whipped [...]"

So, you certainly do not have to whip / fuse the end.

If you do not whip, then the entire rope - all the way to the end - just has to meet the definition of rope. And since velcro (at least, certain types of velcro) has been ruled as being rope, I see no reason that said velcro could not extend to the end of said rope. :rolleyes:

arichman1257 31-01-2017 17:22

Re: Velcro on rope?
 
For those who have not seen it on the other velcro thread, here is a video of 1257's climber concept. The hook side of velcro grabs fibrous rope very easily. This means that the whole rope can be grippy.

tnguyen 31-01-2017 20:32

Loop Velcro on Rope
 
Hi all,

As we all starting on our attempt of climbing the rope, our team has some questions regarding the appropriate materials for our rope.

Is a loop Velcro glued/stitched onto the middle of another rope legal?

Tuba4 31-01-2017 20:40

Re: Loop Velcro on Rope
 
Look to the Q & A for the definitive answer. The answer has evolved from week 1 until now.


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