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Velcro on rope?
Can we put velcro on our rope? We plan on using a ratchet strap for our rope. Can we put velcro on it in order to aid climbing?
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Re: Velcro on rope?
Are you saying you want the velcro from your robot to attach to the rope, or you want velcro to be a part of your rope?
I would hazard a guess and say yes to the former, and no to the latter. I would not consider velcro to be "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together," as I04 mandates. |
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^ agree.
I'd just try using the strap alone and see how it works. If it slips, try a grippier rope. |
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One of the robot in 3 days used velcro to make the climbing process much easier. However, I think they will adjust the rules to prevent people from doing something like this. I would be wary about using velcro on your rope.
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I believe OP is talking about this: https://youtu.be/m7RNTi1HI3Y?t=259
I was wondering this as well. Basically RI3D 1.0 interpreted the following rule in a pretty optimistic way: Rope must "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of each end which may be whipped, fused, covered in heat shrink or tape, or dipped in a coating material to prevent fraying." Velcro isn't "heat shrink or tape" nor is it a "coating material to prevent fraying". That kinda makes me think that it's not legal. That being said, there's a perfectly decent chance that it COULD be legal. It's just really not very clear imo. |
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The loop portion of Velcro sure looks woven to me. It's non-metallic, fibrous, and flexible. I'll wait for the q&a ruling before we go all-in on the design but it currently looks pretty viable.
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Even the velcro website says that they are woven....Legal in my mind.
http://www.velcro.com/business/produ...-hook-and-loop |
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It looks ridiculously viable. So much so, I'm having trouble thinking any other method is better.
That said, if they rule the loop side of velcro doesn't work, can we just use really fuzzy rope ? :) |
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I've been wondering the same thing. I don't believe its legal to attach the Velcro to the rope, but may be legal to use Velcro as the rope.
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Hanging off the side of the bridge looked viable until it was said otherwise I do see this being made against the rules or for FIRST to do it program wide on the rope provided
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Using loop Velcro as the rope seems like such a viable hack that it wouldn't surprise me at all for the GDC to rule it illegal, just because it breaks the endgame. We will wait and see.
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I am confused. Some people seem to think that putting a loop in a rope and using a hook to attach to it is somehow different than using hundreds of hooks to attach to hundreds of loops using Velcro.
And to suggest that Velcro isn't "twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" is just ridiculous. If not by one of those methods, how do you think it's held together? The only issues I see with Velcro would be any inclusion of adhesive on the Velcro and how you would go about attaching it the end of your rope. Picking the right Velcro to use and being able to "twist, tie, weave, or braid" it to the rest of your rope are the things to watch out for. In my mind, if you disallow the general use of Velcro for climbing, you also disallow putting a hook into a loop to then climb. |
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Remember, if you want to use hook-end vecro as your rop material you can cut a length of it into strips and braid the strips together, therefore making it a perfectly legal rope.
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Re: Velcro on rope?
What does FIRST want to accomplish with the "end game" feature of their game design? Who can say for sure but I can guess that it is exciting finishes to matches.
In what way does an easily implemented solution to the problem damage this goal? FIRST was about as open and they could possibly have been regarding the defintion of "ROPE". I think A) this is perfectly within the rules and B) FIRST will be delighted if 90% of teams are off the ground at the end of matches. Bottom line: I will be extremely surprised if FIRST makes this illegal. Callin' 'em as I sees 'em. Dr. Joe J. |
Re: Velcro on rope?
We've found a lot of success with fraying the end of a rope and rubbing it to make it frizzy and fluffy. Then we put velcro on the roller and it sticks really well. This is a little less questionable than using velcro as the rope.
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Most Velcro has a plastic backing, and at least the hooks (and often the loops) are made of plastic. I think plastic will not be accepted as a "fiber". If your Velcro "rope" has plastic in it throughout the entire length, I do not think it will be accepted. |
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Fiber: "a thread or filament from which a vegetable tissue, mineral substance, or textile is formed." I see no reason why plastic would not meet this definition. Also, if you plan on ruling out plastic, you would also rule out quite a few chord and rope options in addition to Velcro. |
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Velcro only has a plastic backing when it is intended to stick on. This is the kind most robotics folks are more familiar with. Most Velcro doesn't, though, because it is intended to be sewn on.
Ropes made of plastic are pretty common. I'm pretty sure one of the ropes in the picture in the game manual could be plastic even. :D I will be interested to see how they clarify this in the Q&A. They may outlaw Velcro, but I think they will have to add language to the rule to do so. |
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Would it be allowed to have a rope made from a "fuzzy" material that Velcro is able to attach to?
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Make your own rope by braiding in a strand of Velcro. Quote:
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From the first sentence of section 3.8:
"A ROPE is a strong, thick string composed of twisted or braided strands of manila, hemp, flax, or the like...." Personally, I'd never describe a velcro strap as a "string." It may be woven, etc, but I'd not consider it a string. I strongly suspect that the GDC will rule velcro straps to not qualify as any sort of string. |
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The rules state that you can "whip" the final 4" of the rope to prevent it from fraying. If velcro can't be used to whip it then use some fuzzy yarn, I'm pretty certain that you can find something that the hook side will grab well enough.
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Re: Velcro on rope?
My own thoughts:
There does not appear to be any restriction on the construction of the "rope" itself, beyond the maximum width (not diameter) and that it must consist of non-metallic fibers that are "twisted, tied, braided, or woven together". Velcro itself is a piece of webbing woven together with strands to form either the hook or the loop. It is absolutely fibers that are woven together. That said you couldn't take two sticky-backed pieces of Velcro and stick them together, but you could sew them. The rope is considered part of the arena, therefore the robot rules don't apply. There is no rule saying that an arena piece can't be covered in hook tape, or that it can't connect to the carpet. Arguably you could make a "rope" long enough to touch the carpet and actually adhere to it using hook tape. R05 bans the use of hoop and loop for "tractions devices" which are defined as "all parts of the ROBOT that are designed to transmit any propulsive and/or braking forces between the ROBOT and FIELD carpet." So unless your climbing mechanism also interfaces with the field carpet then R05 would not apply to it. R08 specifically states that the rope, once removed from the davit, is no longer part of the field. So you can use a winding mechanism or something else that would be difficult to quickly remove. So barring further clarification by FIRST it seems like a hook and loop fastener "rope" would be perfectly legal. That said don't be surprised if FIRST doesn't clarify this at some point, particularly since it seems like a fairly easy solution that goes against the spirit of a "rope". Please note that the above comments are my personal thoughts and do not reflect any official stance on the part of FIRST or the Chesapeake District. They are, at best, a snapshot of how I would personally interpret the rules as available should I encounter it at a competition as a RI/LRI. |
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Just don't walk the edge of the rule and be surprised if you fall off. Ask the question and be sure. |
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If this isn't in the week 1 rule update, then it'll probably be legal. Wasn't that when they released the climbing rule that ruined it last year?
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when will the first rule update be published?
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Updates are Tuesdays and Fridays until competition season, when they're on Tuesdays only. |
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My guess is that they will add a minimum dimension for the rope, and specify diameter instead of width. Whether or not they ban Velcro will be particularly interesting. |
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Why would they specify diameter? Non round rope is legal.
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I'm honestly shocked it wasn't in Team Update 1. Somebody on the GDC has to have taken five minutes to look at RI3D. If Velcro is legal, it's really quite a lot easier than other methods as long as your winch can actuate a little to get a good wrap on it.
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Just an FYI. I searched Q and A and found there are already 4 questions asking about velcro on the rope. Hopefully we will find out Friday.
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For those lobbying for the all-velcro option, consider this. The Airship Field Tour video (~3:11) says the rope retention straps are made of hook and loop tape. It would be a shame if the "rope" did not deploy because it was snagged in the retention strap.
-Greg |
Re: Velcro on rope?
You need to remember that Ri3D do not meet all rule requirements.
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Re: Velcro on rope?
Q6, Q21, Q44, Q45, and Q53 all ask about velcro and ropes. They are all unanswered.
I think that, with the rules as they are set now, velcro is a legal thing. But I think that that is subject to change as they may just ban it by creating a no-velcro-on-ropes rule. |
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Q10 about the rope materials was just answered 3 hours ago. The GDC stated "We will not provide rulings on specific designs/materials". Hopefully we get a clarification in TU2, and teams dont have to wait until week 1 to see what a robot inspector decides.....
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Re: Velcro on rope?
This reminds me a bit of the fiasco in 2011 when people thought it would be cool to launch minibots up the pole with a spring, until it was banned a few updates in. I think the GDC does not like it when people find an aspect of the game they thought would be difficult trivial, but I am struggling to see how they can fix this one simply.
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Re: Velcro on rope?
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Is there an aspect of Velcro that is not allowable? (e.g., how are the loops attached to the backing?) Find that, and issue an announcement that that is not allowable, etc. OR, add in a rule section/blue box that indicates Velcro as not meeting the spec. That's what they did with the pre-placed gears. Launching minibots was banned in TU#1 (2011). The Noodle Agreement was announced as "in the process of being banned" in TU#1, but the actual implementation of that was released in TU#2 (2015). I believe it was something like TU#16 or TU#17 (or later) that banned stacking robots to start a match back in '07--AFTER that strategy was used to score points, and despite a Q&A on the topic. A fix to 6v0 was released in the update between Week 1 and Week 2 in 2010--and does anybody remember the THURSDAY update in 2014??? The GDC has their ways to put the game towards the way they want it. I suspect that they are having strong internal discussions on two topics: 1) Do we want this in the game? 2) How do we make the answer to #1 fit in the rules/Q&A?. There are a couple of cases in memory where the GDC has changed their answers mid-season, for reasons apparently including not being on the same page. I get the impression they're trying to avoid that... |
Re: Velcro on rope?
I think the difficulty in banning velcro is that it is literally "hook and loops." How do you ban small hooks and loops without banning big ones?
You are right though Eric, I was mis-remembering the 2011 rule change as being TU2, and they usually do hit the really obvious stuff with TU1. 6v0 is one of the most interesting things that happened in FIRST but at the Week 1 regional I attended (FLR) no one really did it. It would have been interesting to see if it would become taboo as the season went on without a rule change or become the dominant gameplay method. The Q & A this year seems more open to answering specific questions. A few years ago I could imagine them obnoxiously punting all velcro-based questions to LRIs with "we do not rule on specific designs" but because they have been delaying the answer to Q6 this year it seems likely it will get a real answer. |
Re: Velcro on rope?
so ive moved around the velcro and planning on more of an approach 71 took with the file card drive train. using a steel wire brush roller and spinning that to grip the rope they cant ban that
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I just hope this doesn't turn into a 2012-118 no-ruling-until-the-first-competition situation
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I've only quickly read it, and haven't had time to fully internalize it, but the new team update only partially answers this question for me.
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate02.pdf |
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I dont see where it answers the velcro question at all.
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Can someone explain to me what "superfusion" means?
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My question is couldn't someone just braid, mesh or tie a rope of less than 1 inch out of yarn that would be strong enough to support a robot, and still use the "hook Portion" of the Velcro on the robots spooling mechanism? I feel like that would be really easy to create, and still have the "Velcro" properties that everyone is trying to achieve.
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More clarification from Frank! http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...need-answering
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I think this was the right decision.
Would you rather an Frc game where 50% of teams can climb or 20%. Although I still think the bring your own rope concept sorta killed the climbing aspect of this game. |
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So my reading of the update is that I can sew a strip of Velcro the whole length of the rope (one inch webbing for us) or the last couple of inches its our choice?
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Yes, Velcro! |
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Please, hook & loop. :)
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Is it just me, or did the additions to rule I04 D and E (about the binder coat exception and the Retaining Feature not extending over 2 inches below the Davit fingers) added in Team Update 5 never get actually added to the Game Manual itself?
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I am not sure that you answered my question or got stuck on semantics of me calling something by a brand name.
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So wed be using webbing to follow along with the rule we can melt the bottom edge to avoid fraying and we would have to be 4 inch up from that to be competition legal?
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When I am mean 4 inches above that would be the start of the hook and loop sewn onto the webbing
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But, my interpretation is the velcro should be able to extend all the way to the end of the rope. Here is why I think that: In the answer to Question 184, they emphasize "may be": "except for the last 4 in. (~10 cm) of any cut end (E) which may be whipped [...]" So, you certainly do not have to whip / fuse the end. If you do not whip, then the entire rope - all the way to the end - just has to meet the definition of rope. And since velcro (at least, certain types of velcro) has been ruled as being rope, I see no reason that said velcro could not extend to the end of said rope. :rolleyes: |
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For those who have not seen it on the other velcro thread, here is a video of 1257's climber concept. The hook side of velcro grabs fibrous rope very easily. This means that the whole rope can be grippy.
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Loop Velcro on Rope
Hi all,
As we all starting on our attempt of climbing the rope, our team has some questions regarding the appropriate materials for our rope. Is a loop Velcro glued/stitched onto the middle of another rope legal? |
Re: Loop Velcro on Rope
Look to the Q & A for the definitive answer. The answer has evolved from week 1 until now.
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