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-   -   Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153286)

Robojacks4674 09-01-2017 10:44

Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
I'm actually curious, since the following pieces of information are contradictory...

Quote:

4.1 [Periods]


...The first period, called AUTO, is the first fifteen (15) seconds of
a MATCH in which ROBOTS operate without any DRIVE TEAM control or input.

Quote:




This shows that the pilot IS indeed, technically a member of the drive team.



Quote:



"To start ROTOR 1, the PILOT places the GEAR..."
This clarifies that to start a rotor, the pilot must place the gear (such information was gathered in Figure 3-12)


Quote:



This, combined with the other presented information, shows that, in order to get the additional 20 points for a rotor to spin, the pilot must place a gear, therefore, a member of the drive team is technically interacting with field elements during autonomous.

Hallry 09-01-2017 10:47

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robojacks4674 (Post 1627810)
This, combined with the other presented information, shows that, in order to get the additional 20 points for a rotor to spin, the pilot must place a gear, therefore, a member of the drive team is technically interacting with field elements during autonomous.

Correct, but Section 4.1 only says that "Robots operate without any Drive Team control or input", not that Drive Team members (specifically here, Pilots) can't score without controlling the robot.

Bryce Clegg 09-01-2017 10:50

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
The drivers would be interacting with robots by controlling it during auto, which is prohibited, while a pilot would be interacting with game pieces. Also, since placing the gears is necessary for auto gameplay, that means the pilot is in the right. Using that, I guess that also means human players can interact with the feeder stations and game pieces during auto.

Robojacks4674 09-01-2017 10:55

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1627813)
Correct, but Section 4.1 only says that "Robots operate without any Drive Team control or input", not that Drive Team members (specifically here, Pilots) can't score without controlling the robot.


What about the grey area with the rule about when the pilot can interact with a received cog (I believe it is G23, I am in class right now and can't make a rule snippet)


EDIT: Rule G26

JamesBrown 09-01-2017 11:03

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Clegg (Post 1627820)
Using that, I guess that also means human players can interact with the feeder stations and game pieces during auto.

See H08, they can move things around, but game pieces can't enter the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H08;
GAME PIECES through LOADING STATIONS only. ALLIANCES may only deliberately cause GAME PIECES to leave an ALLIANCE STATION or LOADING LANE
A. during TELEOP,
B. by a HUMAN PLAYER or DRIVER, and
C. through a LOADING STATION slot.
Violation: FOUL per GAME PIECE. If strategic, RED CARD.


Robojacks4674 09-01-2017 11:10

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBrown (Post 1627834)
See H08, they can move things around, but game pieces can't enter the field.

But, TELEOP and AUTO are different. Therefore, still prohibited.

Quote:

Each MATCH is divided in to two periods. The first period, called AUTO, is the first fifteen (15) seconds of
a MATCH in which ROBOTS operate without any DRIVE TEAM control or input. During this period,
ROBOTS attempt to deliver preloaded GAME PIECES (and PILOTS race to install delivered GEARS),
retrieve additional GAME PIECES, and cross their BASE LINE before the start of the next period.
TELEOP is the second period in a MATCH and is two minutes and fifteen seconds (2:15) long. During
this period, DRIVERS may operate ROBOTS remotely to retrieve and deliver GAME PIECES, defend
against their opponents, and climb their ROPES to prepare for the impending departure of their AIRSHIP
after the MATCH.

TELEOP and AUTO are different periods, and also the PILOT is neither a HUMAN PLAYER nor DRIVER, just a member of the DRIVE TEAM, similar to the DRIVE COACH, who cannot interact.

mypie4050 09-01-2017 11:50

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robojacks4674 (Post 1627810)
This, combined with the other presented information, shows that, in order to get the additional 20 points for a rotor to spin, the pilot must place a gear, therefore, a member of the drive team is technically interacting with field elements during autonomous.

Note that the manual says that drivers are not permitted to interact with robots, not field elements. It is obvious that pilots would need to interact with the gears to get a rotor turning in AUTO, so what you are referencing is not a contradiction, more just a misinterpretation of what a member of the drive team is permitted to do.

Robojacks4674 09-01-2017 12:02

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mypie4050 (Post 1627867)
Note that the manual says that drivers are not permitted to interact with robots, not field elements. It is obvious that pilots would need to interact with the gears to get a rotor turning in AUTO, so what you are referencing is not a contradiction, more just a misinterpretation of what a member of the drive team is permitted to do.


Even then, the other posts. there is still some grey area.

Hallry 09-01-2017 12:08

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robojacks4674 (Post 1627829)
What about the grey area with the rule about when the pilot can interact with a received cog (I believe it is G23, I am in class right now and can't make a rule snippet)


EDIT: Rule G26

G26 states simply "Any GEAR transferred to a PILOT during the MATCH must be done so via a LIFT." Again, the PILOT is not controlling a robot, and it does not say that a PILOT cannot use a LIFT during autonomous (and in fact they have to in order to score the autonomous rotor points), so I don't see any gray area for confusion.

jee7s 09-01-2017 12:09

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
The maximum of the grey area would be if the PILOT pulls the GEAR from the ROBOT using the LIFT during AUTO. Surely, if the ROBOT places the GEAR, and removes all contact between the ROBOT and the GEAR so the GEAR is only contacted by the LIFT and then the LIFT is manipulated by a PILOT then there is no DRIVE TEAM to ROBOT interaction.

At most the manual may prohibit the PILOT from operating the LIFT to remove a GEAR from a ROBOT. But, if the ROBOT is not in contact with a GEAR on the LIFT then the PILOT is free to operate the LIFT.

Caps for rule book emphasis/consistency.

This is the strictest interpretation I could envision. The intent of the rule is to not allow human input to control the robot. So, practically speaking, GDC will probably allow the pilot to operate the lift to remove a gear from the robot so long as the pilot doesn't supply a control signal to the robot in the process.

Robojacks4674 09-01-2017 12:14

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jee7s (Post 1627891)
The maximum of the grey area would be if the PILOT pulls the GEAR from the ROBOT using the LIFT during AUTO. Surely, if the ROBOT places the GEAR, and removes all contact between the ROBOT and the GEAR so the GEAR is only contacted by the LIFT and then the LIFT is manipulated by a PILOT then there is no DRIVE TEAM to ROBOT interaction.

At most the manual may prohibit the PILOT from operating the LIFT to remove a GEAR from a ROBOT. But, if the ROBOT is not in contact with a GEAR on the LIFT then the PILOT is free to operate the LIFT.

Caps for rule book emphasis/consistency.

Indeed. Sorry to everyone else for my lack of clarification but this is where I was leading. There was another post on Saturday about a potential issue with when a pilot can operate a lift, and if the robot is still in contact, would that be considered robot to human interaction.

That was the only other thing I was confused with, and perhaps in the weekly team updates, some of the language will be cleared up.

Chris is me 09-01-2017 12:24

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
I honestly dont' get the ambiguity here. Of course they can. This is obvious because otherwise scoring gears in autonomous would be impossible, but the wording of the rules supports that too.

The DRIVE TEAM is not prohibited from "interacting" in a general, broad sense. The full rule text is "ROBOTS operate without any DRIVE TEAM control or input". The PILOT is not operating the ROBOT, obviously. They are neither controlling nor inputting commands to the robot. Control or input

H08 doesn't come into play at all either, because the game pieces in question are in the field of play. They are not in the ALLIANCE STATION.

I actually can't find the word "Interacting" in the rules anywhere in this context. That isn't the wording of the rule. The rule is "ROBOT operates ... control or input". This isn't ambiguous. There's nothing to see here.

The PILOT is not prohibited from doing anything in autonomous excluding what they are prohibited from doing the entire match and using the reserve gear.

jee7s 09-01-2017 12:54

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
There is an ambiguity, though not related to the OP.

Picture a robot that preloads a gear and 10 fuel, delivers the gear to the boiler facing side of the airship, then backs up to deliver fuel to the boiler. Suppose the reversing to the boiler is initiated by a state change on a contact switch indicating the gear is present. When the gear is removed, the robot backs up.

In that scenario, is the removal of the gear providing a control signal to the robot? Q&A shall decide, I suppose.

jspatz1 09-01-2017 14:15

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
4.1 states "... and PILOTS race to install delivered GEARS" during auto.

engunneer 09-01-2017 14:24

Re: Can the Pilot do anything during autonomous?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jee7s (Post 1627926)
There is an ambiguity, though not related to the OP.

Picture a robot that preloads a gear and 10 fuel, delivers the gear to the boiler facing side of the airship, then backs up to deliver fuel to the boiler. Suppose the reversing to the boiler is initiated by a state change on a contact switch indicating the gear is present. When the gear is removed, the robot backs up.

In that scenario, is the removal of the gear providing a control signal to the robot? Q&A shall decide, I suppose.

if our gear delivery required it to be lifted out, we would do this. It is not a crazy idea. The question certainly needs an answer from the GDC.

I would also argue that the program could be such that the state change of the gear being removed from the sensor is not necessarily a control input, but still may be an indirect input. The argument would go as such.
  1. The program is periodically checking for the presence of the gear
  2. if the program detects that there is no gear, the autonomous program continues along a different logic path (driving away vs not driving)
  3. the robot has no way of knowing how or why the gear is not there

it's not a good argument, but it is an argument. I think it could still be ruled as indirect control which is still not allowed. in that case, we'd just have to go off time and hope.


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