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-   -   G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153296)

efoote868 09-01-2017 16:06

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Does anyone want to try to formulate the question so when the Q&A goes live there doesn't need to be 3 non-answers citing "The GDC does not rule on design" ?

Does G28 preclude the use of air to affect the movement of FUEL that is inside the volume of the ROBOT?
When will air currents from a robot draw a G28 penalty?

engunneer 09-01-2017 16:15

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1628093)
Does anyone want to try to formulate the question so when the Q&A goes live there doesn't need to be 3 non-answers citing "The GDC does not rule on design" ?

Does G28 preclude the use of air to affect the movement of FUEL that is inside the volume of the ROBOT?
When will air currents from a robot draw a G28 penalty?

Can already answer the first version. G28 does not preclude that use.

I'm having a hard time coming up with good wording, but something to the effect of using air to power the fuels motion offensively, but not defensively.

It could be clarified nicely if they have G28 not apply inside your own launchpad. This allows air shooters but not air defense.

Building off your second question (but still no easy answer), Where is the threshold between incidental air movement versus forced air movement.

efoote868 09-01-2017 16:31

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1628100)
Can already answer the first version. G28 does not preclude that use.

I'm having a hard time coming up with good wording, but something to the effect of using air to power the fuels motion offensively, but not defensively.

It could be clarified nicely if they have G28 not apply inside your own launchpad. This allows air shooters but not air defense.

Building off your second question (but still no easy answer), Where is the threshold between incidental air movement versus forced air movement.

I wonder if you were to design an air powered shooter with the end of the barrel working with a principle similar to a silencer... the air pressure would disperse well before the end of the barrel.

If you were to set fuel at the end of the "barrel", there wouldn't be enough air pressure to move it, or one could even demonstrate with paper there is no air current at the end of the barrel. Then you can demonstrate to the head referee that there is no air flowing outside of your robot, so G28 would not apply.

Jon Stratis 09-01-2017 16:46

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1628089)
continuing with your point of interest. Inspection is the determination that a presented design does not break any rules. We are inspecting that the robot meets all the R rules, and is not likely to break any G rules by design (G04 is the simplest example of one that we look for specifically on the inspection checklist). My point was that if it used for a shooting mechanism, but the shooter had no fuel, would forced air be leaving the volume of the robot? If so, it's illegal. Over extension limited by software is usually fine, but we still notify the head ref that a robot is capable of breaking a rule on the field, and should be watched. That's the best case i can think of for an air shooter. Legal for shooting, but not legal for defense, and the ref will be notified to keep an eye out.

Look at the past checklists again. We do not inspect for game rules, nothing on the inspection checklist has a G number next to it. We won't inspect for G04 this year, either. We will, however, inspect for R03. R03 is the Robot rules equivalent for G04. Many times in the past there has been this "doubling up" on the rules between robot and game rules for precisely this reason.

engunneer 09-01-2017 16:48

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1628112)
I wonder if you were to design an air powered shooter with the end of the barrel working with a principle similar to a silencer... the air pressure would disperse well before the end of the barrel.

If you were to set fuel at the end of the "barrel", there wouldn't be enough air pressure to move it, or one could even demonstrate with paper there is no air current at the end of the barrel. Then you can demonstrate to the head referee that there is no air flowing outside of your robot, so G28 would not apply.

That's quite an engineering challenge, but if you were to accomplish and demonstrate that, it would pass inspection as far as i can tell from the known rules.

Lil' Lavery 09-01-2017 16:58

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
You know what I like about the rulebook this year? They have these nice, simple, bolded titles that describe the intent and effect of each rule. In the case of G28 it states "Don't use air to direct/redirect FUEL." That seems pretty clear what the intention of the rule is. We're not to use air to direct/redirect fuel.

FrankJ 09-01-2017 17:05

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1628147)
You know what I like about the rulebook this year? They have these nice, simple, bolded titles that describe the intent and effect of each rule. In the case of G28 it states "Don't use air to direct/redirect FUEL." That seems pretty clear what the intention of the rule is. We're not to use air to direct/redirect fuel.

The full rule is
Quote:

Don’t use air to direct/redirect FUEL. ROBOTS may not use forced air to affect the movement of FUEL that is outside the volume of the ROBOT.
This rule does not apply to inside the volume of the robot. Using an air cannon that has enough power to continue to accelerate a ball outside the volume is a bit grey. As a RI I would allow absent further clarification. Your RI might differ. It is a bit grey. Using the air cannon as a defensive tool or to herd balls outside the robot volume is clearly against the rules.

engunneer 09-01-2017 17:07

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1628147)
You know what I like about the rulebook this year? They have these nice, simple, bolded titles that describe the intent and effect of each rule. In the case of G28 it states "Don't use air to direct/redirect FUEL." That seems pretty clear what the intention of the rule is. We're not to use air to direct/redirect fuel.

I agree, except they do specify that it applies outside the robot volume only. I think that leaves the only interpretation that air shooters that do not prevent the forced air from leaving the robot volume are not legal. You can use forced air for moving fuel around within your robot, as long as that forced air does not direct or redirect any fuel outside the robot volume.

Lil' Lavery 09-01-2017 17:17

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1628156)
The full rule is


This rule does not apply to inside the volume of the robot. Using an air cannon that has enough power to continue to accelerate a ball outside the volume is a bit grey. As a RI I would allow absent further clarification. Your RI might differ. It is a bit grey. Using the air cannon as a defensive tool or to herd balls outside the robot volume is clearly against the rules.

Exactly, that's the full rule. The second sentence does not exclude and overrule the first. The clause stating that you may not use air outside the frame perimeter does not permit the use of air within the frame perimeter, is simply excludes using it outside the frame perimeter.

Jon Stratis 09-01-2017 17:25

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1628156)
This rule does not apply to inside the volume of the robot. Using an air cannon that has enough power to continue to accelerate a ball outside the volume is a bit grey. As a RI I would allow absent further clarification. Your RI might differ. It is a bit grey. Using the air cannon as a defensive tool or to herd balls outside the robot volume is clearly against the rules.

All RI's should allow it. It's the ref's that may have a problem with it. It's not illegal to have a device on your robot that moves significant quantities of air, there is no robot rule against it. Such a devices use on the field (which is what the refs are for), may be depending on the circumstances.

jvriezen 09-01-2017 18:59

Re: G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1628089)
continuing with your point of interest. Inspection is the determination that a presented design does not break any rules. We are inspecting that the robot meets all the R rules, and is not likely to break any G rules by design (G04 is the simplest example of one that we look for specifically on the inspection checklist). My point was that if it used for a shooting mechanism, but the shooter had no fuel, would forced air be leaving the volume of the robot? If so, it's illegal. Overextension limited by software is usually fine, but we still notify the head ref that a robot is capable of breaking a rule on the field, and should be watched. That's the best case i can think of for an air shooter. Legal for shooting, but not legal for defense, and the ref will be notified to keep an eye out.

Just to clarify, the rule does not prohibit directing forced air outside the volume of the robot, it only (literally) prohibits using forced air to affect fuel outside your robot. You could clearly have an otherwise useless blower directed straight up, running full time and only be subject to a penalty if fuel happens to be passing over it and gets affected.


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