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G28 Clarification - Air Powered Shooter
My team is discussing strategies for shooting fuel at a high rate. A google search for "Wiffle ball shooter" produces some videos of leaf-blower powered shooter, and we thought this would be a good solution (powered by a legal motor/in a legal fashion) However, there are a couple sticking points. The first, G28:
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The second sticking point is whether using air in this fashion is legal at all. A cursory search of the rules does not explicitly disallow this (as in whether a fan is a pneumatic device :p) Thanks for your input. Please let me know if I missed anything in the rules that pertains to this question. We also intend to ask Q&A for clarification/intent when it opens. |
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Q&A this for sure, but where is the ambiguity? It says don't use air to direct fuel outside of the robot. That is as straightforward as it gets. You are directing fuel, outside of the robot, using air. This isn't a "strict reading of the rules", it's what the rule means. Can't possibly be legal.
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Unless you can figure a way to stop the air from the blower to stop at your frame perimeter while allowing the ball to pass through, I'd say it's not legal.
Definitely a Q&A though. |
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Because the rule allowed for using air on fuel in your bot's volume rather than ban air moving fuel entirely, it is reasonable to assume that the GDC had a reason to make this distinction. I can think of three reasons to use air to move fuel inside your volume
1) A system similar to a drive-up bank tube, to move fuel through a path in your robot, presumably to your shooter. 2) To agitate fuel in hopper to help it find its way to the shooter intake (like a lottery ball machine) 3) To actually shoot the fuel. If this was their intent, they didn't consider the final residual effect of air on the fuel after it left the volume, but perhaps that was an oversight. Hoping they address this in the first update, rather than have to wait for the A to a Q. |
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Assuming that you aren't sustaining a stream of pressurized air as the ball continues out of the robot, I think it's very reasonable to think that this rule allows a ball to be shot from within the volume of the robot using pressurized air. -Phil |
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I don't mean to make this more black and white than it is, but it's not a very ambiguous rule to me. People have an idea in their head what they think the rule is supposed to be for, and then they decide that something else explicitly prohibited by the rule actually isn't, because it doesn't match that notion. The rule says you can't direct (or redirect) balls outside of your robot with air. Can you provide an explanation as to how that isn't what an air cannon is doing? |
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1) Prevent changing the coarse of fuel shot by your opponent via air. 2a) Prevent a leaf blowing strategy to gather all the fuel on the floor to your own end of the field. 2b) Similarly, blowing the 50 fuel coming out of the hopper that you aren't catching in your bot to your end of the field. The question is whether their intent was/will be to prohibit air powered shooters. |
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My reading of the rule stands with many others. If you want to levitate whiffle balls inside the volume of your robot, go for it. You may not, however levitate whiffle balls outside of your volume. I think air cannons will be legal.
Enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBk1c5hfhE I believe the cuts on the ball in the video are different than the FRC game pieces, but somebody should give this a shot - just for fun... or to win. |
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All that said, I think it's clear that the defensive used of forced air is illegal from that rule. As for a shooting mechanism... I won't even pretend to know how it will be ruled. The penalty is pretty rough for it, though, so I wouldn't want to take a chance on it without first getting an iron-clad Q&A response. And as the Q&A doesn't open up for another 2 days, that's too late for me to spend time or energy on pursuing such a design when I have other options that can be prototyped right now for shooting balls. |
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However, just because that's the intention doesn't mean that's what the rule actually says. An air cannon shooter is entirely illegal under this rule, whether that was the intention or not. Maybe FIRST just really, really hates air-based shooters (can't blame them, honestly.) |
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Does anyone want to try to formulate the question so when the Q&A goes live there doesn't need to be 3 non-answers citing "The GDC does not rule on design" ?
Does G28 preclude the use of air to affect the movement of FUEL that is inside the volume of the ROBOT? When will air currents from a robot draw a G28 penalty? |
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I'm having a hard time coming up with good wording, but something to the effect of using air to power the fuels motion offensively, but not defensively. It could be clarified nicely if they have G28 not apply inside your own launchpad. This allows air shooters but not air defense. Building off your second question (but still no easy answer), Where is the threshold between incidental air movement versus forced air movement. |
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If you were to set fuel at the end of the "barrel", there wouldn't be enough air pressure to move it, or one could even demonstrate with paper there is no air current at the end of the barrel. Then you can demonstrate to the head referee that there is no air flowing outside of your robot, so G28 would not apply. |
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You know what I like about the rulebook this year? They have these nice, simple, bolded titles that describe the intent and effect of each rule. In the case of G28 it states "Don't use air to direct/redirect FUEL." That seems pretty clear what the intention of the rule is. We're not to use air to direct/redirect fuel.
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