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-   -   Is the Boiler worth it? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153355)

Donut 10-01-2017 22:31

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Maybe I'm crazy but I actually think the low goal can be useful. With the low goal it's all about quantity, if you can dump a hopper where you catch one side and ground pickup most of the other quickly you can get enough balls for 10 point cycles. That's the same point value as gear cycling for the 3rd rotor (requires 4 gears yielding 10 points per gear). It's not a single strategy to pursue like high goals or a fast gear runner, but it would be a good secondary function for robots that have another function as well. A defensive minded bot could score low in a match when the alliance needs just a few more kPa for the bonus, or a gear bot can cycle balls and gears across the field in one pass to maximize scoring per cycle.

High goal scoring can go toe to toe with gear cycling for max points in a match (gears score 220 in teleop in playoffs ignoring the reserve gear for rotor 1, high goal fuel can score 245 in teleop in playoffs based on the 5 fuel per second processing average). It also offers the highest potential autonomous bonus for a single robot (going to assume no one does 3 gear auto solo). With high goal scoring most teams will have to pick between that and a fast gear runner though, since most teams will not be successful in making their bot capable of scoring both ways at a top tier level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1628969)
40 kPa of boulders

Freudian slip there.

Joe Johnson 11-01-2017 13:30

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 

Dr. Joe's 3

"Don't Bother Unless..."

Rules For High Efficiency Goal Shooting:


  1. Fast off the floor and into your hopper
  2. Fast out of hopper and into the shooter
  3. Accurrate shooting into the High Efficiency Goal


Seriously, it is going to be very hard to make the numbers work our from a cost/benefit point of view.

You have to excel at all 3 aspects of this process or your team probably would have been better off making simpler/smaller robot that you finished earlier and got more driver practice and had more time to make those 100s of refinements that add up to huge benefits to your overall performance.

I am quite serious. I would bet that for 90% of teams that are going to try to do high efficiency goal shots, they literally could have increased their average scores significantly more by just organizing their pits better and/or focusing on battery management and putting in place preflight check lists/diagnostic software features (e.g. checking for PWM wires that are unplugged).

Bottom line, High Efficiency Goal Shooting is going to be a boneyard of time suck for so so many teams.

Sorry for the downer post.

Dr. Joe J.

P.S. Our team was high fiving ourselves when a prototype "Fuel Tank" was able to spit out 2.5 balls per second during a test run. It seemed like a crazy fast stream of balls exiting our test hopper. Then I realized it would take 20 seconds of shooting non stop to empty a single hopper's worth of balls into the High Efficiency Goal. And that it would take 3 such hoppers worth to earn that tantalizing extra RP. How many teams are going to actually pull that off. Many will try. Few will succeed...

IKE 11-01-2017 16:45

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
My concern is that there will be decently accurate teams that shoot at about 1 Ball/second processing rate...

Bob Steele 11-01-2017 17:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1628941)
In recent years, defense has been limited to jostling robots around while they travel around the field. This year brings back "big defense" where you can interfere with robots while they perform scoring tasks. Knock someone out of alignment while they're crossing the field and they'll adjust, maybe you add a second or two to their cycle time. Knock them out of alignment in placing a gear and they'll probably need 5-7 more seconds to realign, unless they (wisely) designed their mechanism to not require major lineup precision.

My point is not that the boiler should be ignored but this: supposing you score all the gears, there are better uses of your time than low goal cycling. I like Rangel's idea of loading up high shooter bots.

There is a major difference this year in playing defense and that is defense is played on the opposite end of the floor with very limited visibility behind the airship. There are places in the scoring zones that certain alliances from the other end simply can't see. Of course they may use a camera on their robot but sight lines are very limited. If a team knows which alliance driver position is playing defense.... they can take advantage of this fact. It will be extremely difficult to see the middle gear scoring position from any of the driver stations..... precision defense as was played in previous years when most of the defensive action was right in front of your own operator station is going to be extremely difficult. The offense has the advantage in setting picks for each other and doing their work.

Sightlines.... even a bigger deal this year than last year.

Donut 11-01-2017 18:31

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 1629510)
My concern is that there will be decently accurate teams that shoot at about 1 Ball/second processing rate...

This. FRC hasn't had a game without a game piece limit since 2009, so most recent games have rewarded accuracy (making sure you score the one ball you have) over volume per attempt. A 100% accurate shooter won't matter this year if you can only hold 10 balls or can't get them out fast enough.

If the boiler plays out like Aim High goals did, this game will be entertaining to watch. The Einstein matches from 2006 with teams filling the high goal so fast that balls were falling out of it (then being caught and re-fired) are some of my all time favorite matches to watch.

tr6scott 19-01-2017 13:16

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson (Post 1629335)
lists/diagnostic software features (e.g. checking for PWM wires that are unplugged).

OK, I agree....

How does one write code to detect a pwm is unplugged?

Chris is me 19-01-2017 13:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I believe there is just one reason to use the low efficiency goal and I don't think it has much to do with the points it scores. So it's probably not worth it. It's just too inefficient as a scoring method. 33% accuracy in the high goal is not that much harder than a low goal mechanism. The frustrating thing is that the low goal dump height is not the same height as the hopper load, so you can't easily use the same mechanism to load the low goal as you use to load alliance partners.

Ball mechanisms seem like they take so much more design effort and space compared to the reward. I see it as something you do opportunistically while focusing on gears - you keep that intake running as you make your back and forth cycles, and eventually your hopper will just so happen to be full, so you can get a few points for that. Balls are also something to do on alliances that have gotten three rotors spinning, but clearly won't get the 4th in time.

efoote868 19-01-2017 13:36

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tr6scott (Post 1633518)
OK, I agree....

How does one write code to detect a pwm is unplugged?

Pretty sure that fell under the preflight check list and not the diagnostic software feature :cool:
But it would work with some form of feedback... current sensing circuit shows no current, optical encoder detects no ticks etc. Might be useful in the pits, but hardly useful once the robot is on the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1633521)
I believe there is just one reason to use the low efficiency goal and I don't think it has much to do with the points it scores. So it's probably not worth it. It's just too inefficient as a scoring method. 33% accuracy in the high goal is not that much harder than a low goal mechanism. The frustrating thing is that the low goal dump height is not the same height as the hopper load, so you can't easily use the same mechanism to load the low goal as you use to load alliance partners.

If it allows your robot to cycle 3x faster with no missed shots, it's worth it. Also if your alliance strategy is to overload the opposing alliance with fuel, it's worth it. ;)

Boltman 19-01-2017 13:55

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
One way to look at the Boiler is it worth it?

Its the only scoring method that is available all game... with unlimited game pieces

In gears you have "pay as you go" at 0 (40/60) 2 (40/60)- 4 (40) -6(40+ RP/100)

In climb you have 30 secs to get 50 at endgame

Fuel is the only way to continually score all game ...so its a DIFFERENTIATOR and definitely has worth...

Simple example Both teams with gears in auto/tele at 120, both alliances climb
so far a TIE at 270 who wins? the alliance that scored 1 point with Fuel (1 HE auto, 10 HE tele or 30 LE tele) that is 2 RP.

This alone makes potential boiler capability on an alliance worth it. to win those matches 271 to 270

Chris is me 19-01-2017 14:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1633525)
If it allows your robot to cycle 3x faster with no missed shots, it's worth it. Also if your alliance strategy is to overload the opposing alliance with fuel, it's worth it. ;)

You need to cycle more than 3 times faster for it to be worth it, and you have to consider the cost of giving your opponents access to those balls which could be scored in their own high goal for a net loss.

But that second sentence is what I was alluding to with the "one reason to score in the low goal". If both goals are processing balls at capacity, that's ten balls per second going into the opponent's ball bin. Shouldn't take too long for that bin to overflow and give your own alliance quick access to some more balls to score with.

Skyehawk 19-01-2017 15:03

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628372)
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

There is a misconception that needs to be cleared up here, the marginal benefit of gears is NOT linear per rotor. The correct model is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1632362)
These are also not correct point values for gears. You are stating the average value of gears for each rotor assuming the gear set is completed. The following are the exact values for each gear:
  • First gear: 40 points
  • Second gear: 0 points
  • Third gear: 40 points
  • Fourth, fifth, and sixth gears: 0 points
  • Seventh gear: 40 points
  • Eighth through twelfth gears: 0 points
  • Thirteenth gear: (40 points + 1 RP) or 140 points

I think fuel will become a particularly attractive scoring option if an alliance can score more than seven gears but fewer than thirteen gears (or who can accomplish the feat of scoring all 13 of their gears). It doesn't make sense to sink time into a scoring objective that won't yield any points*.

*edit: assuming that the primary objective is to win the match


There will be a production possibility curve for each team based on a cycle-time modifier. This determines where teams' resources (time) are best spent. I have attached an example with a 1:1 time spent per point for both gears and fuel.


NOTE: The attached graph is only considering teleop playoff point values and may have slight inaccuracies based on how the graph was generated (due to the number of sample points), it also works with the assumption of 108 max points of fuel (including bonuses).

Richard Wallace 19-01-2017 15:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Unless there is a robot on your alliance that owns* the boiler (see my earlier post in this thread), stoking will be everyone's part time job. Grab a few balls at the loading station, visit a hopper while it is being dumped, or sweep the floor on along your way -- just get a little FUEL when you can, and score it to the best of your ability. This will be the win/loss margin when alliances are evenly matched on gears and climbing. Could even get you an extra RP, sometimes.
-----------

* Looking at you, teams from Purdue. :)

Peyton Yeung 19-01-2017 15:49

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace (Post 1633582)
Unless there is a robot on your alliance that owns* the boiler (see my earlier post in this thread), stoking will be everyone's part time job. Grab a few balls at the loading station, visit a hopper while it is being dumped, or sweep the floor on along your way -- just get a little FUEL when you can, and score it to the best of your ability. This will be the win/loss margin when alliances are even matched on gears and climbing. Could even get you an extra RP, sometimes.
-----------

* Looking at you, teams from Purdue. :)

We're considering making shirts that say "Boiler is my middle name".
Westside Boiler Invasion
Harrison Boiler Robotics
Maverick Boiler Robotics

efoote868 19-01-2017 16:09

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1633602)
We're considering making shirts that say "Boiler is my middle name".
Westside Boiler Invasion
Harrison Boiler Robotics
Maverick Boiler Robotics

Boiler UP! I might have to get some new Purdue gear this year.

KelleyCook 21-01-2017 10:55

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShammyWhammy (Post 1628362)
With a processing rate of 5/s, that comes out to 24 seconds of just processing and that's not accounting for the chance of you missing and collection time.

Is there a maximum on the kPa you can have?

There is actually a maximum on kPa; Not by rule, but by processing rate.

You can count 75 balls in 15 seconds of autonomous and 675 in teleop.

But this raises another question, is it 5/second for each boiler or combined?

If the answer is combined then for max score you'd only do the high goal with gives a theroetical of 75 * 1 + 675 * 1/3 = 300 kPa (or points) .

If the answer is each then your alliance does both and you theoreticallyy could get an additional 100 kPa for a total of 400 kPa (or points).


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