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-   -   Is the Boiler worth it? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153355)

bowmanb 21-01-2017 12:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
If we have an opponent that is a hopper loader/high shooter, our first move in tele will be to run around and dump all the hoppers. Ball pit time! It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.

novelCytologist 21-01-2017 12:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
My team says it's worth it, but I can't see how. You'd need an extremely quick shooter and accuracy is critical. Even slightly off, and your robot sucks.

And retrieval time is just too long. It'd be more worth it if balls were worth more points.

However, we also have to consider that if all robots focus on gears, maxing the rotors may end up the norm, and boilers are now the only way to get ahead.

EricH 21-01-2017 13:04

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowmanb (Post 1634427)
It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.

[citation needed]

Sorry, but from what I've seen in the past, if floor loading is available, there'll be a lot of teams that can be extremely lethal with it, especially when there's no capacity limit other than robot size. '09 and '06 come to mind.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 17:12

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowmanb (Post 1634427)
If we have an opponent that is a hopper loader/high shooter, our first move in tele will be to run around and dump all the hoppers. Ball pit time! It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.


You are forgetting about collecting fuel from the floor while doing gear cycles...

NShep98 21-01-2017 17:21

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KelleyCook (Post 1634370)
But this raises another question, is it 5/second for each boiler or combined?

Per the field tour video, it is 5 fuel per second for each goal.
Per the manual, however, this is an average value, depending on how tightly packed the goal is, so theoretically it could be processed faster than this.

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 17:24

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634553)
You are forgetting about collecting fuel from the floor while doing gear cycles...

You lose a couple of cycles while shooting the balls you're collecting. If you do such a strat, you can only get maybe two rotors on your own. It's better to either shoot the entire match (and be sure to hit that 40kpa) and then gear rather than pursuing a hybrid strat that may or may not get you both 2/3 rotors turning and 40kpa. Especially if one of your alliance partners can hit 6-8 gears on their own.

Green Potato 21-01-2017 18:38

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
It's important to note that not all matches will be close: if you think a qualification match is going to be a blowout,getting that extra RP will be very valuable.

This also means that the best partners in qualms arn't necessarily the best ones for elims... which is going to be fun.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 19:18

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634563)
You lose a couple of cycles while shooting the balls you're collecting. If you do such a strat, you can only get maybe two rotors on your own. It's better to either shoot the entire match (and be sure to hit that 40kpa) and then gear rather than pursuing a hybrid strat that may or may not get you both 2/3 rotors turning and 40kpa. Especially if one of your alliance partners can hit 6-8 gears on their own.

You may be significantly underestimating the speed at which some teams will release a torrent of balls on the high goal... The time spent shooting for some teams will be less than 5 seconds for 50 balls. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how a match like this will play out when they have a collector that can fill up their hopper once every gear cycle or two.

Edit: And yes, there will be a team somewhere that does everything well. 7 gear cycles, 150 balls scored in the high goal, climb, all by themselves.

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 19:26

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634597)
You may be significantly underestimating the speed at which some teams will release a torrent of balls on the high goal... The time spent shooting for some teams will be less than 5 seconds for 50 balls. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how a match like this will play out when they have a collector that can fill up their hopper once every gear cycle or two.

That's 10 balls/sec. Not sure if achievable, but I'm guessing the average may be more around 5-7 balls/sec.

Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you. You're looking at spending a minute or so on shooting, giving you time to cycle maybe 3-4 gears. That is a lot better than a plain gear cycler, so I will admit for a team that can hit those fast, accurate shooting goals (as Dr. Joe said) it's a viable strat... if you're alone. If you have a couple of gearbots on your alliance, you shouldn't bother cycling back and forth and just collect close to the goal and shoot fast.

Edit: Not sure how timing would work for 7 gear cycles, 150 pts, and climbing. It might happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Siri 21-01-2017 19:44

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634599)
Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you.

If you're good enough to score 7 balls per second, you're good enough not to have most defense (much less any defense at all) waste 10 seconds of your life for every load you shoot. People way over estimate the actual in-match effects of most--and even some rare top tier--defensive play versus powerhouse offensive robots.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 19:49

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634599)
That's 10 balls/sec. Not sure if achievable, but I'm guessing the average may be more around 5-7 balls/sec.

Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you. You're looking at spending a minute or so on shooting, giving you time to cycle maybe 3-4 gears. That is a lot better than a plain gear cycler, so I will admit for a team that can hit those fast, accurate shooting goals (as Dr. Joe said) it's a viable strat... if you're alone. If you have a couple of gearbots on your alliance, you shouldn't bother cycling back and forth and just collect close to the goal and shoot fast.

Edit: Not sure how timing would work for 7 gear cycles, 150 pts, and climbing. It might happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I didn't do any timing or math, I just wanted to put out an extreme example. Something that may be seen with a super-bot paired with 2 bots keeping defense from happening on said super-bot. And a fair bit of luck with game pieces in the right locations/clusters. Also don't forget about teams that may have an insane autonomous (WAVE Robotics in 2015 comes to mind).

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 20:08

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634605)
I didn't do any timing or math, I just wanted to put out an extreme example. Something that may be seen with a super-bot paired with 2 bots keeping defense from happening on said super-bot. And a fair bit of luck with game pieces in the right locations/clusters. Also don't forget about teams that may have an insane autonomous (WAVE Robotics in 2015 comes to mind).

I could see gear+40kpa auton happening, like 2 ball last year. If there were such a super-bot, it would end up 1st seed and pick a gear cycler or a bot like itself, then a defense bot to round out the alliance.

Richard Wallace 21-01-2017 20:26

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634605)
I didn't do any timing or math, ...

Oh, but you should! It's fun!

RoboRebels5988 23-01-2017 07:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
We are a 2nd year, FRC team with very little experience, we are currently thinking our best bet is to focus on a simple mechanism to deliver cogs, rather that a fuel retrieval and shooting system...what would others advise? We appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

GeeTwo 23-01-2017 08:04

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NShep98 (Post 1634560)
Per the field tour video, it is 5 fuel per second for each goal.
Per the manual, however, this is an average value, depending on how tightly packed the goal is, so theoretically it could be processed faster than this.

Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboRebels5988 (Post 1635032)
We are a 2nd year, FRC team with very little experience, we are currently thinking our best bet is to focus on a simple mechanism to deliver cogs, rather that a fuel retrieval and shooting system...what would others advise? We appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

For this you'd be better off looking for threads that talk about gears than one that talks about fuel. Don't be afraid to use the search function! Bottom line: yes, this appears to be a common, and likely relatively effective, solution for low resource/experience teams. This means that in order to stand out as a gearbot, you will want to be able to hang a LOT of GEARS during the match period; two or three probably won't get you picked second except at the smaller district events.


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