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-   -   Is the Boiler worth it? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153355)

ShammyWhammy 09-01-2017 23:20

Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I can't seem to figure out a reason why you'd wan't to go for the steam over the gears. You gain points in a much more efficient manner with the gears. If you get all the rotors started you get a minimum of 120 points with a qualification point in teleop. With the steam, you get something like 40 points and a ranking point for 120 balls shot in the high goal. With a processing rate of 5/s, that comes out to 24 seconds of just processing and that's not accounting for the chance of you missing and collection time. It just seems extremely inefficient compared to the gears. Is there a maximum on the kPa you can have?

g_sawchuk 09-01-2017 23:26

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
There are two main answers:
-In higher level (and perhaps slightly above average) matches, you don't need all robots on gears. You only want to devote the minimum resources necessary to the gears, and capitalize in other ways for points (balls or hang).
-You get a ranking point for 40kPa. Ranking points are immensely valuable, as I'm sure that you've recognized if you've looked at FIRST STRONGHOLD. This RP might even be achievable in autonomous (if you are a high goaler with a speedy shot) by triggering a hopper and shooting, as the point values are boosted. Regardless of if you don't quite make it, this gets you in close proximity to the needed 40kPa.

tldr; Ranking points are important, slightly above average alliances don't need all three robots on gears.

Additionally, while the kPa visual counter maxes out, their is no maximum to kPa you can earn.

ShammyWhammy 09-01-2017 23:32

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
So then can you earn an additional ranking point if you can manage another 40 kPa?

Richard Wallace 09-01-2017 23:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
The fastest way to get the boiler up will be to dump 50 balls into your robot from a hopper and stream them into the high efficiency goal during auto. Not easy, but fast. I think some teams will do this; i.e., the teams that go to Einstein.

Billfred 09-01-2017 23:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShammyWhammy (Post 1628362)
I can't seem to figure out a reason why you'd wan't to go for the steam over the gears. You gain points in a much more efficient manner with the gears. If you get all the rotors started you get a minimum of 120 points with a qualification point in teleop. With the steam, you get something like 40 points and a ranking point for 120 balls shot in the high goal. With a processing rate of 5/s, that comes out to 24 seconds of just processing and that's not accounting for the chance of you missing and collection time. It just seems extremely inefficient compared to the gears. Is there a maximum on the kPa you can have?

No, there is not a maximum. BUT:

1) What's going to settle the score when both alliances get 12 gears delivered?
2) If your alliance doesn't offload scored fuel, your opponents get it back.
3) If your alliance doesn't offload scored fuel into one of your robots, your opponents effectively get it back.
4) You've got all this room and still 6 weeks!

Unless you've got some ultra-niche strategy, I fail to see how a team can 100% disregard fuel.

g_sawchuk 09-01-2017 23:37

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShammyWhammy (Post 1628367)
So then can you earn an additional ranking point if you can manage another 40 kPa?

No, there is only an RP for when you hit 40 the first time (discussed on other thread).

EricH 09-01-2017 23:38

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

dane.capognaoo 10-01-2017 07:14

The boiler can be important because if you get 40 kPa you get 1 ranking point. It takes 120 balls for high goal to make that 40 kPa. It also takes 360 balls to make it as well. But when in final they are then worth an additional 20 points.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

wjd13 10-01-2017 07:20

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
As said earlier, ranking points are king. The better you seed, the better your playoff alliance will be. If you're very good at getting that 40 kPa, you'll seed very well.

Fields 10-01-2017 09:03

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628372)
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

There is one small but VERY important mistake here.
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear + 1 RP (qualify)
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 23.33 pts/gear (playoff)

Jarren Harkema 10-01-2017 09:23

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
One thing I've realized over the years is that relying on your qualification partners can be risky business. Unless you have a constant stream of information from your scouters throughout the tournament, many teams over estimate their ability. That said, we have been evaluating how our team can hold our own in matches.

It is significantly more feasible for a single robot to max out the pressure on the boiler, only needing one or two cycles depending on the robots fuel capacity and accuracy. A single robot is going to have a very hard placing the 12 gears needed to get the rank point for the rotors on its own. Assuming one gear could be placed in auto, that leaves about 10 second per gear cycle, while still leaving 15 seconds for a climb. A robot is going to have to move quick and avoid all defense. A boiler robot can guarantee the rank point on its own and has more protection while doing so. The tricky part is determining how many rotors need to be spinning to get enough points to guarantee the win as well. Arguably winning is more important than losing but filling the boiler. But being able to solo fill the boiler is also a very valuable alliance partner in playoffs.

DAlitz 10-01-2017 09:24

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Don't forget, to deliver a gear you'll almost always have to traverse the field. Fuel will be available in the hoppers and likely on the ground. Less travel time.

The boilers also have no upper limit. Once you've delivered 12 gears your done with them. If you don't have anyone in your alliance working with fuel you've capped the total number of points possible.

Siri 10-01-2017 09:36

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628372)
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

Saying the average is a 10sec/cycle is a little deceptive. Even if they're not scored in autonomous, if you can get the preload gears on a robot that can peg them eventually, you're only "cycling" 9 gears from retrieval. (1+2+4+6)-1-3=9. This is where the strong dedicated gear robots will shine particularly in quals: the ability to either floor load or accept (via cheesecake or otherwise) the other preload gears means that your other alliance partners only need to run 3 gears total if you're on the upper end of 2013's cycle times.

It is going to suck when you do 3 preload + 6 cycles and your other 2 bots can't manage 3 collectively though. Be ready to bag out early. In fact (if you're playing with this level in mind), that's among the most important uses of fuel: when your coach is looking at the clock ticking down and realizing you're not going to finish that last rotor. If you need points before endgame to pull out the win, running insufficient gears is literally a waste of time.

Daniel_LaFleur 10-01-2017 10:10

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAlitz (Post 1628478)
<Snip>
. Fuel will be available in the hoppers and likely on the ground.
<snip>
.

"likely on the ground'? That's an understatement.

Eric Scheuing 10-01-2017 10:22

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAlitz (Post 1628478)
Once you've delivered 12 gears your done with them. If you don't have anyone in your alliance working with fuel you've capped the total number of points possible.

This is my reasoning for doing boiler. I expect that in higher level play we will see 4/4 rotors spinning in most matches for both teams. That means that the boiler and climbing are going to be what decide the matches.

ldsedam 10-01-2017 14:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
The fuel is the only method of scoring in this game that has no limit. In higher level of play, the rotors will get capped out with some time left. After this, the determining factor is the fuel. Whichever alliance can put in the most fuel into the boiler is how the winner will be decided.

IronicDeadBird 10-01-2017 16:30

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Gears are bursts of points, boilers can get you points in the background while you go around and do other things. Both are worth it, you should ask what you want to prioritize more. In all honesty I look at all the objectives on the field and most of them can be accomplished with minimal moving parts. I imagine some of the best robots out there are going to be insanely simple designs augmented with active mechanisms to make them run more efficiently but that is a different conversation.

This game kinda reminds me of cookie clicker, Star Craft or Age of Empires in regards to resource management. If you only do one or the other you are going to have a ton of down time where you aren't scoring and if you aren't scoring you still need to be doing something.

itsjustjon 10-01-2017 16:36

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I'm confused as to why one entire method of scoring game pieces would be invalid for use?

Scoring in the Boiler gives you one RP in Quals, and that RP can be guaranteed in the autonomous period given kPa is equal to each fuel in the High Efficiency Boiler. That means that you can do both.

That being said, there still can be a case made that the Low Efficiency Goal isn't worth it.

Boltman 10-01-2017 16:37

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Absolutely... RP and difference maker

As for LE goal depends on design...if you can ensure a cycle of 50 dumped..that nets 5+ points per cycle.... if you can do 7or 8 cycles that's a RP that would require both hopper load and super fast floor pickup. The advantage of LE is its semmingly higher probability then HE for many teams. That being said HE is the way to go I think in terms of fuel especially in auto.

BenGuy 10-01-2017 16:45

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShammyWhammy (Post 1628362)
I can't seem to figure out a reason why you'd wan't to go for the steam over the gears. You gain points in a much more efficient manner with the gears. If you get all the rotors started you get a minimum of 120 points with a qualification point in teleop. With the steam, you get something like 40 points and a ranking point for 120 balls shot in the high goal. With a processing rate of 5/s, that comes out to 24 seconds of just processing and that's not accounting for the chance of you missing and collection time. It just seems extremely inefficient compared to the gears. Is there a maximum on the kPa you can have?

Put simply - steam in auton, gears in teleop

Grim Tuesday 10-01-2017 16:53

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
The low goal strikes me as useless in teleop. If your robot can carry 40 balls and you dump them in the low goal you get 4.4 points and bit more than 1/10th of the way to a RP. Spending that cycle time on defense against gears (average gear worth is 15 pts, not counting the RP or point bonus for all spinning). I imagine some good defense could double or triple cycle time for gears, making it more worthwhile use of time than low goal scoring.

frodobaggins05 10-01-2017 19:43

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
No

Mark Westwig 10-01-2017 19:49

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I agree that the gears have a higher face value than fuel, but in higher level matches, all the gears will be placed before the match is over and you don't want your robot sitting around on the field waiting for the ropes to drop.

Rangel 10-01-2017 19:54

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1628812)
The low goal strikes me as useless in teleop. If your robot can carry 40 balls and you dump them in the low goal you get 4.4 points and bit more than 1/10th of the way to a RP. Spending that cycle time on defense against gears (average gear worth is 15 pts, not counting the RP or point bonus for all spinning). I imagine some good defense could double or triple cycle time for gears, making it more worthwhile use of time than low goal scoring.

Not only that, but dumping balls into even a decent shooter robot would be a far better use of balls than dumping them in low goal. Literally the same task but done at different heights and one gives far more desirability and effectiveness in a match.

Grim Tuesday 10-01-2017 20:21

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Westwig (Post 1628926)
I agree that the gears have a higher face value than fuel, but in higher level matches, all the gears will be placed before the match is over and you don't want your robot sitting around on the field waiting for the ropes to drop.

I wouldn't overestimate the realistic number of possible cycles for the average competent team. Going back to 2011 scoring tasks have often been protected by zones or keys. Scoring the gears are not protected tasks, similar to trying to place a 2007 inner tube (e.g . this vintage defense. In recent years, defense has been limited to jostling robots around while they travel around the field. This year brings back "big defense" where you can interfere with robots while they perform scoring tasks. Knock someone out of alignment while they're crossing the field and they'll adjust, maybe you add a second or two to their cycle time. Knock them out of alignment in placing a gear and they'll probably need 5-7 more seconds to realign, unless they (wisely) designed their mechanism to not require major lineup precision.

My point is not that the boiler should be ignored but this: supposing you score all the gears, there are better uses of your time than low goal cycling. I like Rangel's idea of loading up high shooter bots.

Mark Westwig 10-01-2017 20:28

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1628941)
. This year brings back "big defense" where you can interfere with robots while they perform scoring tasks. Knock someone out of alignment while they're crossing the field and they'll adjust, maybe you add a second or two to their cycle time. Knock them out of alignment in placing a gear and they'll probably need 5-7 more seconds to realign, unless they (wisely) designed their mechanism to not require major lineup precision.
.

I completely agree with playing defense while crossing the field, but as shown in the field tour videos (I believe it is the one about the airship), there are shields protecting the gear placement slots, which in my mind makes playing defense while placing gears rather difficult.

Brian Maher 10-01-2017 21:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I think that the top teams at events, both in terms of alliance captains and first picks, will tend to be robots a mastery of gear manipulation as well as one of high goals or climbing.

While gears are the big points in this game (I think everyone agrees here), they are finite and rather defendable. Plus, with how obviously advantageous gear-scoring is, I think robots who do so will be abundant. Teams will be served well by having another scoring method in their toolbox to stand out and give them a strategic edge.

40 kPa of boulders yields nearly the same number of match points as climbing, plus one RP. Last year, bonus RP made a world of difference, and with them being considerably harder to earn this year than last, I think robots who can pull off the high shot will quickly scale the rankings.

However, with shooting this year being harder and way more defendable, I think it's really important to not put all of your eggs in the shooter basket. To be successful, I believe shooters will need to something else really well as well. Defense this year is going to be ferocious. For this reason, I think the fill-the-boiler-in-auto strategy is going to be incredibly powerful. Shooters who don't intend to finish the job in auto better plan around defense in teleop, or they will be easy targets.

Climbing is also rather valuable, and is not defendable. For this reason, I think the most desirable robots during alliance selection (i.e. the early first picks) will be relaible gear/climber bots. Those climb points will be particularly value in elims, where having a climber instead of a shooter doesn't sacrifice an RP.

AndyBare 10-01-2017 21:54

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
For all those discounting the low efficiency scoring method, remember this: after the fuel is scored, it goes to the opposing alliance. They have 3 buckets that can hold roughly 50 fuel each, meaning around 150 fuel max. After this point, they go to overflow. So, if you can move and score fuel faster than the other alliance, the fuel will be forced into returning back to your side of the field via either their loading lane or your overflow loading station.

[Edit] - that being said, I'm not saying it's the way to go, but I do think that it could potentially present a large pressure point on the opposing alliance.

Josh Tatum 10-01-2017 22:14

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Westwig (Post 1628943)
I completely agree with playing defense while crossing the field, but as shown in the field tour videos (I believe it is the one about the airship), there are shields protecting the gear placement slots, which in my mind makes playing defense while placing gears rather difficult.

Not only do the barriers make defense difficult, but drivers will also not be able to see the lift-side of their opponents airships well, This will make trying to defend them much more difficult.

Grim Tuesday 10-01-2017 22:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Westwig (Post 1628943)
I completely agree with playing defense while crossing the field, but as shown in the field tour videos (I believe it is the one about the airship), there are shields protecting the gear placement slots, which in my mind makes playing defense while placing gears rather difficult.

Good point, that's something I missed!

Donut 10-01-2017 22:31

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Maybe I'm crazy but I actually think the low goal can be useful. With the low goal it's all about quantity, if you can dump a hopper where you catch one side and ground pickup most of the other quickly you can get enough balls for 10 point cycles. That's the same point value as gear cycling for the 3rd rotor (requires 4 gears yielding 10 points per gear). It's not a single strategy to pursue like high goals or a fast gear runner, but it would be a good secondary function for robots that have another function as well. A defensive minded bot could score low in a match when the alliance needs just a few more kPa for the bonus, or a gear bot can cycle balls and gears across the field in one pass to maximize scoring per cycle.

High goal scoring can go toe to toe with gear cycling for max points in a match (gears score 220 in teleop in playoffs ignoring the reserve gear for rotor 1, high goal fuel can score 245 in teleop in playoffs based on the 5 fuel per second processing average). It also offers the highest potential autonomous bonus for a single robot (going to assume no one does 3 gear auto solo). With high goal scoring most teams will have to pick between that and a fast gear runner though, since most teams will not be successful in making their bot capable of scoring both ways at a top tier level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1628969)
40 kPa of boulders

Freudian slip there.

Joe Johnson 11-01-2017 13:30

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 

Dr. Joe's 3

"Don't Bother Unless..."

Rules For High Efficiency Goal Shooting:


  1. Fast off the floor and into your hopper
  2. Fast out of hopper and into the shooter
  3. Accurrate shooting into the High Efficiency Goal


Seriously, it is going to be very hard to make the numbers work our from a cost/benefit point of view.

You have to excel at all 3 aspects of this process or your team probably would have been better off making simpler/smaller robot that you finished earlier and got more driver practice and had more time to make those 100s of refinements that add up to huge benefits to your overall performance.

I am quite serious. I would bet that for 90% of teams that are going to try to do high efficiency goal shots, they literally could have increased their average scores significantly more by just organizing their pits better and/or focusing on battery management and putting in place preflight check lists/diagnostic software features (e.g. checking for PWM wires that are unplugged).

Bottom line, High Efficiency Goal Shooting is going to be a boneyard of time suck for so so many teams.

Sorry for the downer post.

Dr. Joe J.

P.S. Our team was high fiving ourselves when a prototype "Fuel Tank" was able to spit out 2.5 balls per second during a test run. It seemed like a crazy fast stream of balls exiting our test hopper. Then I realized it would take 20 seconds of shooting non stop to empty a single hopper's worth of balls into the High Efficiency Goal. And that it would take 3 such hoppers worth to earn that tantalizing extra RP. How many teams are going to actually pull that off. Many will try. Few will succeed...

IKE 11-01-2017 16:45

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
My concern is that there will be decently accurate teams that shoot at about 1 Ball/second processing rate...

Bob Steele 11-01-2017 17:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1628941)
In recent years, defense has been limited to jostling robots around while they travel around the field. This year brings back "big defense" where you can interfere with robots while they perform scoring tasks. Knock someone out of alignment while they're crossing the field and they'll adjust, maybe you add a second or two to their cycle time. Knock them out of alignment in placing a gear and they'll probably need 5-7 more seconds to realign, unless they (wisely) designed their mechanism to not require major lineup precision.

My point is not that the boiler should be ignored but this: supposing you score all the gears, there are better uses of your time than low goal cycling. I like Rangel's idea of loading up high shooter bots.

There is a major difference this year in playing defense and that is defense is played on the opposite end of the floor with very limited visibility behind the airship. There are places in the scoring zones that certain alliances from the other end simply can't see. Of course they may use a camera on their robot but sight lines are very limited. If a team knows which alliance driver position is playing defense.... they can take advantage of this fact. It will be extremely difficult to see the middle gear scoring position from any of the driver stations..... precision defense as was played in previous years when most of the defensive action was right in front of your own operator station is going to be extremely difficult. The offense has the advantage in setting picks for each other and doing their work.

Sightlines.... even a bigger deal this year than last year.

Donut 11-01-2017 18:31

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 1629510)
My concern is that there will be decently accurate teams that shoot at about 1 Ball/second processing rate...

This. FRC hasn't had a game without a game piece limit since 2009, so most recent games have rewarded accuracy (making sure you score the one ball you have) over volume per attempt. A 100% accurate shooter won't matter this year if you can only hold 10 balls or can't get them out fast enough.

If the boiler plays out like Aim High goals did, this game will be entertaining to watch. The Einstein matches from 2006 with teams filling the high goal so fast that balls were falling out of it (then being caught and re-fired) are some of my all time favorite matches to watch.

tr6scott 19-01-2017 13:16

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson (Post 1629335)
lists/diagnostic software features (e.g. checking for PWM wires that are unplugged).

OK, I agree....

How does one write code to detect a pwm is unplugged?

Chris is me 19-01-2017 13:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I believe there is just one reason to use the low efficiency goal and I don't think it has much to do with the points it scores. So it's probably not worth it. It's just too inefficient as a scoring method. 33% accuracy in the high goal is not that much harder than a low goal mechanism. The frustrating thing is that the low goal dump height is not the same height as the hopper load, so you can't easily use the same mechanism to load the low goal as you use to load alliance partners.

Ball mechanisms seem like they take so much more design effort and space compared to the reward. I see it as something you do opportunistically while focusing on gears - you keep that intake running as you make your back and forth cycles, and eventually your hopper will just so happen to be full, so you can get a few points for that. Balls are also something to do on alliances that have gotten three rotors spinning, but clearly won't get the 4th in time.

efoote868 19-01-2017 13:36

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tr6scott (Post 1633518)
OK, I agree....

How does one write code to detect a pwm is unplugged?

Pretty sure that fell under the preflight check list and not the diagnostic software feature :cool:
But it would work with some form of feedback... current sensing circuit shows no current, optical encoder detects no ticks etc. Might be useful in the pits, but hardly useful once the robot is on the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1633521)
I believe there is just one reason to use the low efficiency goal and I don't think it has much to do with the points it scores. So it's probably not worth it. It's just too inefficient as a scoring method. 33% accuracy in the high goal is not that much harder than a low goal mechanism. The frustrating thing is that the low goal dump height is not the same height as the hopper load, so you can't easily use the same mechanism to load the low goal as you use to load alliance partners.

If it allows your robot to cycle 3x faster with no missed shots, it's worth it. Also if your alliance strategy is to overload the opposing alliance with fuel, it's worth it. ;)

Boltman 19-01-2017 13:55

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
One way to look at the Boiler is it worth it?

Its the only scoring method that is available all game... with unlimited game pieces

In gears you have "pay as you go" at 0 (40/60) 2 (40/60)- 4 (40) -6(40+ RP/100)

In climb you have 30 secs to get 50 at endgame

Fuel is the only way to continually score all game ...so its a DIFFERENTIATOR and definitely has worth...

Simple example Both teams with gears in auto/tele at 120, both alliances climb
so far a TIE at 270 who wins? the alliance that scored 1 point with Fuel (1 HE auto, 10 HE tele or 30 LE tele) that is 2 RP.

This alone makes potential boiler capability on an alliance worth it. to win those matches 271 to 270

Chris is me 19-01-2017 14:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1633525)
If it allows your robot to cycle 3x faster with no missed shots, it's worth it. Also if your alliance strategy is to overload the opposing alliance with fuel, it's worth it. ;)

You need to cycle more than 3 times faster for it to be worth it, and you have to consider the cost of giving your opponents access to those balls which could be scored in their own high goal for a net loss.

But that second sentence is what I was alluding to with the "one reason to score in the low goal". If both goals are processing balls at capacity, that's ten balls per second going into the opponent's ball bin. Shouldn't take too long for that bin to overflow and give your own alliance quick access to some more balls to score with.

Skyehawk 19-01-2017 15:03

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628372)
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

There is a misconception that needs to be cleared up here, the marginal benefit of gears is NOT linear per rotor. The correct model is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1632362)
These are also not correct point values for gears. You are stating the average value of gears for each rotor assuming the gear set is completed. The following are the exact values for each gear:
  • First gear: 40 points
  • Second gear: 0 points
  • Third gear: 40 points
  • Fourth, fifth, and sixth gears: 0 points
  • Seventh gear: 40 points
  • Eighth through twelfth gears: 0 points
  • Thirteenth gear: (40 points + 1 RP) or 140 points

I think fuel will become a particularly attractive scoring option if an alliance can score more than seven gears but fewer than thirteen gears (or who can accomplish the feat of scoring all 13 of their gears). It doesn't make sense to sink time into a scoring objective that won't yield any points*.

*edit: assuming that the primary objective is to win the match


There will be a production possibility curve for each team based on a cycle-time modifier. This determines where teams' resources (time) are best spent. I have attached an example with a 1:1 time spent per point for both gears and fuel.


NOTE: The attached graph is only considering teleop playoff point values and may have slight inaccuracies based on how the graph was generated (due to the number of sample points), it also works with the assumption of 108 max points of fuel (including bonuses).

Richard Wallace 19-01-2017 15:05

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Unless there is a robot on your alliance that owns* the boiler (see my earlier post in this thread), stoking will be everyone's part time job. Grab a few balls at the loading station, visit a hopper while it is being dumped, or sweep the floor on along your way -- just get a little FUEL when you can, and score it to the best of your ability. This will be the win/loss margin when alliances are evenly matched on gears and climbing. Could even get you an extra RP, sometimes.
-----------

* Looking at you, teams from Purdue. :)

Peyton Yeung 19-01-2017 15:49

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace (Post 1633582)
Unless there is a robot on your alliance that owns* the boiler (see my earlier post in this thread), stoking will be everyone's part time job. Grab a few balls at the loading station, visit a hopper while it is being dumped, or sweep the floor on along your way -- just get a little FUEL when you can, and score it to the best of your ability. This will be the win/loss margin when alliances are even matched on gears and climbing. Could even get you an extra RP, sometimes.
-----------

* Looking at you, teams from Purdue. :)

We're considering making shirts that say "Boiler is my middle name".
Westside Boiler Invasion
Harrison Boiler Robotics
Maverick Boiler Robotics

efoote868 19-01-2017 16:09

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1633602)
We're considering making shirts that say "Boiler is my middle name".
Westside Boiler Invasion
Harrison Boiler Robotics
Maverick Boiler Robotics

Boiler UP! I might have to get some new Purdue gear this year.

KelleyCook 21-01-2017 10:55

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShammyWhammy (Post 1628362)
With a processing rate of 5/s, that comes out to 24 seconds of just processing and that's not accounting for the chance of you missing and collection time.

Is there a maximum on the kPa you can have?

There is actually a maximum on kPa; Not by rule, but by processing rate.

You can count 75 balls in 15 seconds of autonomous and 675 in teleop.

But this raises another question, is it 5/second for each boiler or combined?

If the answer is combined then for max score you'd only do the high goal with gives a theroetical of 75 * 1 + 675 * 1/3 = 300 kPa (or points) .

If the answer is each then your alliance does both and you theoreticallyy could get an additional 100 kPa for a total of 400 kPa (or points).

bowmanb 21-01-2017 12:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
If we have an opponent that is a hopper loader/high shooter, our first move in tele will be to run around and dump all the hoppers. Ball pit time! It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.

novelCytologist 21-01-2017 12:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
My team says it's worth it, but I can't see how. You'd need an extremely quick shooter and accuracy is critical. Even slightly off, and your robot sucks.

And retrieval time is just too long. It'd be more worth it if balls were worth more points.

However, we also have to consider that if all robots focus on gears, maxing the rotors may end up the norm, and boilers are now the only way to get ahead.

EricH 21-01-2017 13:04

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowmanb (Post 1634427)
It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.

[citation needed]

Sorry, but from what I've seen in the past, if floor loading is available, there'll be a lot of teams that can be extremely lethal with it, especially when there's no capacity limit other than robot size. '09 and '06 come to mind.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 17:12

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowmanb (Post 1634427)
If we have an opponent that is a hopper loader/high shooter, our first move in tele will be to run around and dump all the hoppers. Ball pit time! It will be the extremely rare robot that can process balls from the floor fast enough to be effective.


You are forgetting about collecting fuel from the floor while doing gear cycles...

NShep98 21-01-2017 17:21

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KelleyCook (Post 1634370)
But this raises another question, is it 5/second for each boiler or combined?

Per the field tour video, it is 5 fuel per second for each goal.
Per the manual, however, this is an average value, depending on how tightly packed the goal is, so theoretically it could be processed faster than this.

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 17:24

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634553)
You are forgetting about collecting fuel from the floor while doing gear cycles...

You lose a couple of cycles while shooting the balls you're collecting. If you do such a strat, you can only get maybe two rotors on your own. It's better to either shoot the entire match (and be sure to hit that 40kpa) and then gear rather than pursuing a hybrid strat that may or may not get you both 2/3 rotors turning and 40kpa. Especially if one of your alliance partners can hit 6-8 gears on their own.

Green Potato 21-01-2017 18:38

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
It's important to note that not all matches will be close: if you think a qualification match is going to be a blowout,getting that extra RP will be very valuable.

This also means that the best partners in qualms arn't necessarily the best ones for elims... which is going to be fun.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 19:18

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634563)
You lose a couple of cycles while shooting the balls you're collecting. If you do such a strat, you can only get maybe two rotors on your own. It's better to either shoot the entire match (and be sure to hit that 40kpa) and then gear rather than pursuing a hybrid strat that may or may not get you both 2/3 rotors turning and 40kpa. Especially if one of your alliance partners can hit 6-8 gears on their own.

You may be significantly underestimating the speed at which some teams will release a torrent of balls on the high goal... The time spent shooting for some teams will be less than 5 seconds for 50 balls. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how a match like this will play out when they have a collector that can fill up their hopper once every gear cycle or two.

Edit: And yes, there will be a team somewhere that does everything well. 7 gear cycles, 150 balls scored in the high goal, climb, all by themselves.

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 19:26

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634597)
You may be significantly underestimating the speed at which some teams will release a torrent of balls on the high goal... The time spent shooting for some teams will be less than 5 seconds for 50 balls. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how a match like this will play out when they have a collector that can fill up their hopper once every gear cycle or two.

That's 10 balls/sec. Not sure if achievable, but I'm guessing the average may be more around 5-7 balls/sec.

Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you. You're looking at spending a minute or so on shooting, giving you time to cycle maybe 3-4 gears. That is a lot better than a plain gear cycler, so I will admit for a team that can hit those fast, accurate shooting goals (as Dr. Joe said) it's a viable strat... if you're alone. If you have a couple of gearbots on your alliance, you shouldn't bother cycling back and forth and just collect close to the goal and shoot fast.

Edit: Not sure how timing would work for 7 gear cycles, 150 pts, and climbing. It might happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Siri 21-01-2017 19:44

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634599)
Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you.

If you're good enough to score 7 balls per second, you're good enough not to have most defense (much less any defense at all) waste 10 seconds of your life for every load you shoot. People way over estimate the actual in-match effects of most--and even some rare top tier--defensive play versus powerhouse offensive robots.

Skyehawk 21-01-2017 19:49

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1634599)
That's 10 balls/sec. Not sure if achievable, but I'm guessing the average may be more around 5-7 balls/sec.

Also, add a second or two for alignment. Add 10 seconds if there's any defense at all on you. You're looking at spending a minute or so on shooting, giving you time to cycle maybe 3-4 gears. That is a lot better than a plain gear cycler, so I will admit for a team that can hit those fast, accurate shooting goals (as Dr. Joe said) it's a viable strat... if you're alone. If you have a couple of gearbots on your alliance, you shouldn't bother cycling back and forth and just collect close to the goal and shoot fast.

Edit: Not sure how timing would work for 7 gear cycles, 150 pts, and climbing. It might happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I didn't do any timing or math, I just wanted to put out an extreme example. Something that may be seen with a super-bot paired with 2 bots keeping defense from happening on said super-bot. And a fair bit of luck with game pieces in the right locations/clusters. Also don't forget about teams that may have an insane autonomous (WAVE Robotics in 2015 comes to mind).

pmattin5459 21-01-2017 20:08

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634605)
I didn't do any timing or math, I just wanted to put out an extreme example. Something that may be seen with a super-bot paired with 2 bots keeping defense from happening on said super-bot. And a fair bit of luck with game pieces in the right locations/clusters. Also don't forget about teams that may have an insane autonomous (WAVE Robotics in 2015 comes to mind).

I could see gear+40kpa auton happening, like 2 ball last year. If there were such a super-bot, it would end up 1st seed and pick a gear cycler or a bot like itself, then a defense bot to round out the alliance.

Richard Wallace 21-01-2017 20:26

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1634605)
I didn't do any timing or math, ...

Oh, but you should! It's fun!

RoboRebels5988 23-01-2017 07:29

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
We are a 2nd year, FRC team with very little experience, we are currently thinking our best bet is to focus on a simple mechanism to deliver cogs, rather that a fuel retrieval and shooting system...what would others advise? We appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

GeeTwo 23-01-2017 08:04

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NShep98 (Post 1634560)
Per the field tour video, it is 5 fuel per second for each goal.
Per the manual, however, this is an average value, depending on how tightly packed the goal is, so theoretically it could be processed faster than this.

Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboRebels5988 (Post 1635032)
We are a 2nd year, FRC team with very little experience, we are currently thinking our best bet is to focus on a simple mechanism to deliver cogs, rather that a fuel retrieval and shooting system...what would others advise? We appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

For this you'd be better off looking for threads that talk about gears than one that talks about fuel. Don't be afraid to use the search function! Bottom line: yes, this appears to be a common, and likely relatively effective, solution for low resource/experience teams. This means that in order to stand out as a gearbot, you will want to be able to hang a LOT of GEARS during the match period; two or three probably won't get you picked second except at the smaller district events.

Siri 23-01-2017 09:33

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1635039)
Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

This. If we understand the mechanics correctly, getting less than 5 fuel/second is straightforward (put less fuel in). Getting more depends entirely on how they came up with the "average". Is 5/sec the average processing rate you measure after 20 trials of dumping 150 balls into the high goal from a trash can all at once? Did they estimate the range of what they thought teams' actual rates of putting fuel into the goals would be? How? Did they weight this range? Did they just take the minimum rate (in which the boiler is still the bottleneck), add it to the maximum rate, and divide by two? Did they only use one exact or approximate input rate (that isn't 150 via someone on a ladder) but understand it can be somewhat faster? Did they just put the word average in so no one sat there with a stopwatch? What's your experimental methodology here, folks? It's going to directly inform how much effort some teams put into optimizing their shooters and aspects of their autonomous routines, and even in confusion it's probably already informed higher-level design decisions.
2017 Manual 3.11.4: "A BOILER processes FUEL in to [sic] steam at an average rate of five (5) FUEL per second per GOAL, but actual rate is dependent on the amount and packing of FUEL in the GOALS (i.e. the tighter the packing in a GOAL, the faster the FUEL processing rate)."

Jasmine Florentine, Boiler Field Tour Video: "Our testing has shown a range of a 4-5 fuel per second for each of the goals in the boiler, so 8-10 total fuel per second."
I too cannot reconcile these two statements. How can the range be 4 to 5 and the average be 5? (Do note that there was one mistake in this video that's already been corrected in the description: the dimensions of the high goal opening. But this issue is not mentioned.)

jtrv 23-01-2017 11:06

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace (Post 1628368)
The fastest way to get the boiler up will be to dump 50 balls into your robot from a hopper and stream them into the high efficiency goal during auto. Not easy, but fast. I think some teams will do this; i.e., the teams that go to Einstein.

I think that far more teams will be able to do this than the Einstein teams. I truly believe that 3-10 teams per regional will be able to do this. Maybe not in week 1 or 2, but by champs, I believe it will be common.

In regards to whether or not the boiler is worth it: Yes, in the right situation. Say your alliance has time to score 10 gears. So you score 10 gears, then climb. You've gotten 3 rotors spinning with 0 fuel. But you had 3 rotors spinning at 7 gears - you've completely wasted time scoring 3 gears because those 3 give you a grand total of zero points. Whereas if the opponent alliance had the same gear scoring speed, but stopped at 7 and scored fuel for the remainder of the match, then climbed, that alliance is victorious. And also maybe got an extra RP.

I can't speak for whether or not the boiler is "worth it" in eliminations. But the boiler is an incredibly easy way to get a RP during quals, especially with a strong autonomous.

NShep98 23-01-2017 11:44

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1635039)
Actually, I read this the other way. Assuming that the indexer for this counter is of the "gumball machine" style (as seen in some of the kickoff home videos), it will run more slowly with only a few fuel, because some of the holes will be empty as they feed to the counter.

I'm not sure what it sounded like I said, but I think we are both saying the same thing. Theoretically a rate of >5 balls/second can be achieved, but whether or not this is truly possible, and by what margin, is pretty ambiguous at this point.

GeeTwo 23-01-2017 12:04

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NShep98 (Post 1635105)
I'm not sure what it sounded like I said, but I think we are both saying the same thing. Theoretically a rate of >5 balls/second can be achieved, but whether or not this is truly possible, and by what margin, is pretty ambiguous at this point.

No. To clarify, my understanding is that the indexer is designed to pass 5 fuel per second (on average) from a full boiler, and will pass less as the boiler empties. I have read these things incorrectly from time to time.

PowerfulKitty 23-01-2017 14:09

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
A lot of this has probably already been said, but:

I see a lot of parallels in the scoring setup between Steamworks and Stronghold. I think we will see alliance setups work very similarly. In stronghold, defenses were the 'easier' scoring method, and they initially returned much more points. The problem is there were only so many defenses, and once they were all broken there was nothing left to do. This is the same as gears. Really good shooters struggled in quals last year because they struggled to put up a lot of points. In elims however the match usually hinged on the performance of the alliance's shooter(s) because all defenses on both sides just got broken every match.

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

Skyehawk 23-01-2017 14:24

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty (Post 1635174)
A lot of this has probably already been said, but:

I see a lot of parallels in the scoring setup between Steamworks and Stronghold. I think we will see alliance setups work very similarly. In stronghold, defenses were the 'easier' scoring method, and they initially returned much more points. The problem is there were only so many defenses, and once they were all broken there was nothing left to do. This is the same as gears. Really good shooters struggled in quals last year because they struggled to put up a lot of points. In elims however the match usually hinged on the performance of the alliance's shooter(s) because all defenses on both sides just got broken every match.

Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

I agree. The extra qualification point that can be secured by good fuel shooter is also a bit of insurance during quals. Match schedules can sometimes be brutal, and sometimes they carry teams. That extra RP a team can 'guarantee' themselves is a point that's going to help in the long run preventing the best fuel shooters falling out of the top 10 or so.

What we are seeing this year is a bit of an inverse of 2016. The 'easy RP' is in the fuel, a task many teams may choose to ignore, in 2016 quite a few teams were selected for defense breaking ability. The 'hard RP' is in the gears, similar to breaking the tower (with high shots). 40kPa seems easier than 13 gears at any rate. I think we will see a lot of bots working towards that magical 7th gear and picking up fuel at minimal time-cost within the gear cycles. When the bots' fuel storage is full they will shoot or dump.

Skyehawk 23-01-2017 16:31

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I discovered my Production Possibility Curve did not include the 40 points of steam bonus for elims. Here is the updated figure:

The same assumptions apply, namely 128 max fuel score.

EDIT: check a few posts below for the NOT SCREWED UP (mad at myself) curve.

Raysaran 23-01-2017 16:45

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1635243)
I discovered my Production Possibility Curve did not include the 40 points of steam bonus for elims. Here is the updated figure:

The same assumptions apply, namely 108 max fuel score.

Maybe just a typo, but the bonus for steam in elims is actually 20 points! :)

Skyehawk 23-01-2017 16:54

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
:mad: Dang it!!! UGGH!


fixed.

Caleb Sykes 23-01-2017 19:24

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jtrv (Post 1635085)
I think that far more teams will be able to do this than the Einstein teams. I truly believe that 3-10 teams per regional will be able to do this. Maybe not in week 1 or 2, but by champs, I believe it will be common.

There will not be a single regional in which at least 10 teams score at least 50 high goals in auto.

SMR Vault 23-01-2017 22:40

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1628372)
Also, the gears have a diminishing return. Assuming all in teleop:
Rotor 1 = 1 gear = 40 pts/gear (60 in auto)
Rotor 2 = 2 gears = 20 pts/gear (30 in auto)
Rotor 3 = 4 gears = 10 pts/gear
Rotor 4 = 6 gears = 6.667 pts/gear

Additionally, you have to deliver all but 1 gear, so that's 12 gears to deliver through the match, which may take a little while (average rate is about one every 10 seconds in teleop to get all 4 rotors). Factor in defense of various types, and you'll need to be pretty good at gear transport to get 4 rotors turning.

Oh, and if you deliver 11 gears, you may as well have stopped at 6.

EricH makes a very sound point. If your team plans to go beyond 7 gears, it needs to be absolutely positive that it can score all 13 by the end of the match, otherwise you've wasted incredibly valuable time that you could've used scoring fuel or defending from other bots.

We reviewed some of these strategies, including defensive strategies, in our video update of weeks 1 & 2 of this season, so check that out for additional info and to see how some teams are implementing these strategies!

https://youtu.be/PJhMr0CW83s

tindleroot 24-01-2017 09:18

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty (Post 1635174)
Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel.

A lot of people are saying this. In many cases, it will be true. However, in Steamworks there is a viable strategy for an alliance to win a competition without scoring any fuel. Such a strategy would be extremely difficult to counter if executed properly.

Chris is me 24-01-2017 09:34

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tindleroot (Post 1635509)
A lot of people are saying this. In many cases, it will be true. However, in Steamworks there is a viable strategy for an alliance to win a competition without scoring any fuel. Such a strategy would be extremely difficult to counter if executed properly.

A 5 / 4 / 3 gear split with three hangers is definitely plausible at certain events, with certain alliances. But if both sides get 12 gears, or neither side gets 12 gears, the difference maker essentially becomes the high goal.

I think you *must* have some sort of ability to manipulate gears and some sort of hanging mechanism to be in elims, because if you have somebody on your alliance who can't do one or the other, you're at least 50 points down (100 if it's gears they can't do) and you have to score 150-300 high goals just to make up for that!

Peyton Yeung 24-01-2017 09:35

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty (Post 1635174)
Elims this year will be decided by shooting fuel. I expect both sides in elims will get all or all but one rotor, and the differentiating factor will be which team can shoot more balls.

Let us not forget that some alliances in 2012 won regionals by triple balancing vs out shooting. That last rotor in elims is 140 points.

Skyehawk 24-01-2017 09:42

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
I know I have a bias towards shooting, but at extremely high levels of play there will be alliances that max out the gears (provided FIRST doesn't adjust the number required) after that what's left? Climbing and shooting. If you were going to climb in the last 10 sec that leaves you only with shooting. This year I think we could see scores exceeding 400 in division playoffs. (again assuming no FIRST score adjustment)

kelef 24-01-2017 09:44

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
But consider the fact that you may be on a team where everyone is gear heavy, which is very likely considering the circumstances. Depending on how efficient the others are, two situations may arise. 1. All of the gears get done earlier in the game than expected and if you have no fuel capability you're SOL for the rest of the game. 2. the other robots are more efficient than you and they handle the gears, then you're stuck driving in circles.

Skyehawk 24-01-2017 09:50

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kelef (Post 1635520)
But consider the fact that you may be on a team where everyone is gear heavy, which is very likely considering the circumstances. Depending on how efficient the others are, two situations may arise. 1. All of the gears get done earlier in the game than expected and if you have no fuel capability you're SOL for the rest of the game. 2. the other robots are more efficient than you and they handle the gears, then you're stuck driving in circles.

The second situation happens almost every year, those robots are usually utilized to play defense. As for the first situation, probably some very exciting game play followed by very battlebots-ish gameplay.

Siri 24-01-2017 10:46

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kelef (Post 1635520)
But consider the fact that you may be on a team where everyone is gear heavy, which is very likely considering the circumstances. Depending on how efficient the others are, two situations may arise. 1. All of the gears get done earlier in the game than expected and if you have no fuel capability you're SOL for the rest of the game. 2. the other robots are more efficient than you and they handle the gears, then you're stuck driving in circles.

The first situation will be especially interesting when both alliances are gear-strong. Then you're in a very precarious high-speed chess match deciding how much defense to play when. If you both just concentrate on finishing gears before playing Aerial Assault (aka battle bots)...you'll both be finished gears already. Defense then is certainly not worth defense earlier. So it's a decision of how much work to put into defense up front while risking not finishing the 4th rotor. Or more likely, you're both not going for a 4th rotor (tying at 3rd with 1-3 climbers each), and try to dupe each other out about it while not screwing up.

This is gonna be fun. :)

Parker Brotman 31-01-2017 19:55

Re: Is the Boiler worth it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SMR Vault (Post 1635393)
We reviewed some of these strategies, including defensive strategies, in our video update of weeks 1 & 2 of this season, so check that out for additional info and to see how some teams are implementing these strategies!

https://youtu.be/PJhMr0CW83s

I like the video. It felt very professional and addressed a number of good points. One comment I have though is that contact is, in fact, allowed in the key. You just can't park in the opponent's key for longer than 5 seconds, but there is no limit on how long you have to wait before returning to the opponents key.


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