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-   -   Team Update 1 Posted (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153412)

bdaroz 10-01-2017 18:13

Team Update 1 Posted
 
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate01.pdf

Bkeeneykid 10-01-2017 18:23

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
This seems particularly relevant to teams designing how fast their robots can shoot:
Quote:

The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

Foster 10-01-2017 18:25

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Love this:
Quote:

Bumpers Included:
Seriously, R3 says bumpers are included in overall robot size this season. For real.
Quote:

Drawing Omissions:
This year, certain field equipment drawings are excluded because we don’t believe they are relevant to a robot’s interaction with the field, and they may provide a solution to an element of the game challenge.
Interesting concept to hide the details about this for the first 6 weeks. But how do they stop people from looking in the next 7 weeks and making changes?

pwnageNick 10-01-2017 18:27

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2017 Team Update 1
Drawing Omissions: This year, certain field equipment drawings are excluded because we don’t believe they are relevant to a robot’s interaction with the field, and they may provide a solution to an element of the game challenge.

Doesn't the second half of this sentence contradict the first half? If they aren't relevant to robot interaction then how can they provide a solution to an element of the game challenge.

Emphasis mine on the quote. The only way this sentence makes sense is if the "solution to an element of the game challenge" is in relation to human interaction rather then robot interaction, which I find troublesome.

rich2202 10-01-2017 18:27

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Drawing Omissions:
This year, certain field equipment drawings are excluded because we don’t believe they are relevant to a robot’s interaction with the field, and they may provide a solution to an element of the game challenge.
Field drawing providing a solution? Magazine for a shooter? Conveyor lift to load the shooter?

Kevin Sevcik 10-01-2017 18:41

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1628863)
Doesn't the second half of this sentence contradict the first half? If they aren't relevant to robot interaction then how can they provide a solution to an element of the game challenge.

Emphasis mine on the quote. The only way this sentence makes sense is if the "solution to an element of the game challenge" is in relation to human interaction rather then robot interaction, which I find troublesome.

The two boilers are giant fuel hoppers and the GDC has designed a system to remove ALL fuels from these hoppers at a rate of 5 per second. In a controlled enough fashion to accurately count them. I guarantee you there are teams that would LOVE to have details of this design so they can iterate on it and shave weeks off their design time.

Cory 10-01-2017 18:44

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1628873)
The two boilers are giant fuel hoppers and the GDC has designed a system to remove ALL fuels from these hoppers at a rate of 5 per second. In a controlled enough fashion to accurately count them. I guarantee you there are teams that would LOVE to have details of this design so they can iterate on it and shave weeks off their design time.

And then there's the majority of us who just want to make sure we're practicing in as close to real conditions as possible and want to make sure we know how the sorter/counter affects that.

I'm pretty sure this is FIRST signaling they're not confident their design works yet and they don't want a ton of people complaining when they build said design and it isn't robust.

guniv 10-01-2017 18:50

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

H15. A pre-populated GEAR may not be removed from its AXLE.
Violation: RED CARD.
Darn! This was gonna be my Q&A question.

Jon Stratis 10-01-2017 18:53

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1628873)
The two boilers are giant fuel hoppers and the GDC has designed a system to remove ALL fuels from these hoppers at a rate of 5 per second. In a controlled enough fashion to accurately count them. I guarantee you there are teams that would LOVE to have details of this design so they can iterate on it and shave weeks off their design time.


Count me as one of those people that wants to know how FIRST's system works so I can copy it :). Of course, the boilers have a rather large footprint, and there's no guarantee that it can be effectively scaled down within a robot.

pwnageNick 10-01-2017 18:54

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory
And then there's the majority of us who just want to make sure we're practicing in as close to real conditions as possible and want to make sure we know how the sorter/counter affects that.

I'm pretty sure this is FIRST signaling they're not confident their design works yet and they don't want a ton of people complaining when they build said design and it isn't robust.

This sounds about right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
The two boilers are giant fuel hoppers and the GDC has designed a system to remove ALL fuels from these hoppers at a rate of 5 per second. In a controlled enough fashion to accurately count them. I guarantee you there are teams that would LOVE to have details of this design so they can iterate on it and shave weeks off their design time.

If this is what the statement is referring to (which I believe it is) and it is something I would possibly want to build on my robot then it is effecting robot interaction.

Like Cory said, being able to build an accurate representation of the field is what most teams would like to get out of the drawings.

Also, off the top of my head, I can think of 33 from 2006 who had a similar spinning hopper similar to the boiler. Some info on their design is in the 2006 Design book that was published (similar to the ones that came in the kit last year about 2015 for those not around in 2006).

GaryVoshol 10-01-2017 18:57

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by guniv (Post 1628882)
Darn! This was gonna be my Q&A question.

They saved you (and the Q&A people) the trouble. That's a good thing.

Andrew_L 10-01-2017 19:06

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1628885)
If this is what the statement is referring to (which I believe it is) and it is something I would possibly want to build on my robot then it is effecting robot interaction.

If they didn't want it to be used by teams, they shouldn't have posted it on their facebook.

bdaroz 10-01-2017 19:39

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Just a warning: There is a link to the "manual" on the Q&A Site, however it appears as though it is not updated with the team update. (As of this post anyway.)

Jarren Harkema 10-01-2017 19:52

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
The low efficiency boiler, with a cap of only 70 fuel, looks less and less appealing as time goes on.

niklas674 10-01-2017 20:02

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarren Harkema (Post 1628930)
The low efficiency boiler, with a cap of only 70 fuel, looks less and less appealing as time goes on.

Did it ever look appealing?

Jarren Harkema 10-01-2017 20:07

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1628934)
Did it ever look appealing?


Ty Tremblay 10-01-2017 21:05

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_L (Post 1628883)
So now the question lies in how quickly balls are removed from the boiler. I understand that it should be spinning at a minimum rate of 5 balls per second at all times during the match, but it also speeds up to up to 15 balls / second - at what point does that happen and for how long?

Pretty sure they mean it gets more efficient as more balls enter since less balls are bouncing around inside and more balls are there to find their way into the slots.

Andrew_L 10-01-2017 21:19

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1628954)
Pretty sure they mean it gets more efficient as more balls enter since less balls are bouncing around inside and more balls are there to find their way into the slots.

Gotcha that makes sense.

RoboTigers1796 10-01-2017 21:25

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Are there any VR compatible images of the field this year? The ones last year offered such a great experience for those of us who don't have the opportunity to see a real field until competition.
It really helped us get a feel for what the field looks like and some of the restrictions we will face when we get there (vision from driver station, little things we can't make out from tour video, drawings, and CAD, etc) / its just cool to virtually stand on the new FRC field.

jee7s 10-01-2017 21:33

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1628934)
Did it ever look appealing?

Re: Low efficiency goal.

It sure is appealing to teams who aren't confident in a high goal shooter. I'd take a reliable low goal dump truck over an un-reliable high goal shooter any day.

Oh, and 70 fuel capacity, at 5 fuel emptied per second means 14 seconds to empty the low goal and get 7 points with 7/9 of the next point scored. So, if you refilled it the moment it emptied, that means you get 8 trips in the match and a total of 62 points. Well coordinated low goal dumpers can still get an RP. And, with a good high goal shooter, they can also overwhelm the bins pretty fast too.

StAxis 10-01-2017 21:45

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
FIRST not publishing the airship makes no sense. Practicing robot to human player timing is important, especially to reliably execute autonomous modes. Plenty of teams will be building their own airships, some unsafely, because they do not have proper drawings.

This doesn't prevent top teams who have the ability to build an airship from succeeding in achieving a "solution" to the game, but it does put young, inexperienced teams at a disadvantage and a risk.

alectronic 10-01-2017 21:47

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1628979)
FIRST not publishing the airship makes no sense. Practicing robot to human player timing is important, especially to reliably execute autonomous modes. Plenty of teams will be building their own airships, some unsafely, because they do not have proper drawings.


How about liability of a team not making one properly and first somehow being on the hook? does that make no sense?

StAxis 10-01-2017 21:59

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alectronic (Post 1628980)
How about liability of a team not making one properly and first somehow being on the hook? does that make no sense?

I don't know if FIRST would be in any way legally responsible if a kid got hurt. Very likely not, but I'll leave that to the lawyers. If it does happen though there's a strong possibility it could be prevented by safe drawings being released.

Kevin Sevcik 10-01-2017 22:04

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jee7s (Post 1628971)
Re: Low efficiency goal.

It sure is appealing to teams who aren't confident in a high goal shooter. I'd take a reliable low goal dump truck over an un-reliable high goal shooter any day.

Oh, and 70 fuel capacity, at 5 fuel emptied per second means 14 seconds to empty the low goal and get 7 points with 7/9 of the next point scored. So, if you refilled it the moment it emptied, that means you get 8 trips in the match and a total of 62 points. Well coordinated low goal dumpers can still get an RP. And, with a good high goal shooter, they can also overwhelm the bins pretty fast too.

Good coordination between a high shooter and low dumper is going to make for a lot of amusement with the 2 opposing HPs having to handle a return bin every 5 seconds or so. High levels of play are going to involve a lot of running for the HPs in the loading lane. I think if your opponent manages to switch over to fueling before you do, it'll be easy to get way behind way fast.

JABianchi 10-01-2017 22:21

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
It will beautiful to watch the team(s) who have a constant stream of high goal shots for almost the ENTIRE match (as they are parked in front of a stressed out overflow loading station or driving around their launchpad collecting the hundreds of unusable fuel being redistributed back by their opponent!):D

niklas674 10-01-2017 23:05

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JABianchi (Post 1628997)
It will beautiful to watch the team(s) who have a constant stream of high goal shots for almost the ENTIRE match (as they are parked in front of a stressed out overflow loading station or driving around their launchpad collecting the hundreds of unusable fuel being redistributed back by their opponent!):D

I suspect that after an alliance gets the ranking point for the boiler, the shooting will stop and efforts will be focused to getting the gears scored.

JABianchi 10-01-2017 23:22

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1629026)
I suspect that after an alliance gets the ranking point for the boiler, the shooting will stop and efforts will be focused to getting the gears scored.

In reality, you're likely right, but it's nice to dream :D

If its possible for a team to have a continuous stream of fuel going into the High Efficiency Boiler for 135 seconds of teleop (x 5 fuel processed per second) (x 1/3 points per fuel) that would be 225 points. Let's also assume this robot also gets a 60 point AUTO, accounting for 285 SOLO points.

You wouldn't need to have powerhouse alliance members to get frighteningly high scores. The other 2 robots could get a couple rotors moving (80-100 pts) and help keep the fuel overflowing.

At the very least, this strategy would put a lot stress on a team full of gearbots.

Poseidon5817 10-01-2017 23:25

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1628987)
I don't know if FIRST would be in any way legally responsible if a kid got hurt. Very likely not, but I'll leave that to the lawyers. If it does happen though there's a strong possibility it could be prevented by safe drawings being released.

I think he was trying to say that if a team didn't follow the drawings properly, or the drawings did have a mistake, FIRST could be held liable. If they leave it to the teams to figure out, they have much less liability.

niklas674 10-01-2017 23:35

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JABianchi (Post 1629036)
In reality, you're likely right, but it's nice to dream :D

If its possible for a team to have a continuous stream of fuel going into the High Efficiency Boiler for 135 seconds of teleop (x 5 fuel processed per second) (x 1/3 points per fuel) that would be 225 points. Let's also assume this robot also gets a 60 point AUTO, accounting for 285 SOLO points.

You wouldn't need to have powerhouse alliance members to get frighteningly high scores. The other 2 robots could get a couple rotors moving (80-100 pts) and help keep the fuel overflowing.

At the very least, this strategy would put a lot stress on a team full of gearbots.

i think a shooting auto would be a better option compared to a gear auto. The large dent that a team can put in the kPa will affect the rest of the match as well as probably allow for an alliance to get 4 rp much easier.

Nathan Streeter 11-01-2017 09:58

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_L (Post 1628883)
So now the question lies in how quickly balls are removed from the boiler. I understand that it should be spinning at a minimum rate of 5 balls per second at all times during the match, but it also speeds up to up to 15 balls / second - at what point does that happen and for how long?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1628954)
Pretty sure they mean it gets more efficient as more balls enter since less balls are bouncing around inside and more balls are there to find their way into the slots.

Where's the 15 balls/second speed given? As far as I can tell, neither the 5 or 15 balls/second is given in the manual (so I'm hesitant to really count on either)... The only places I heard the 5 balls/second speed given were in the live broadcast and in the Boiler Field Tour video (which says 4-5 balls/second).

ATannahill 11-01-2017 10:11

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter (Post 1629175)
Where's the 15 balls/second speed given? As far as I can tell, neither the 5 or 15 balls/second is given in the manual (so I'm hesitant to really count on either)... The only places I heard the 5 balls/second speed given were in the live broadcast and in the Boiler Field Tour video (which says 4-5 balls/second).

Page 34 of the manual gives an average of 5 fuel per second.

Greg Hainsworth 11-01-2017 10:57

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Slightly off topic but relevant to receiving updates for 2017

Last year I received notices of game updates through an app on my phone. This year, I recommended to team members to get this app on their phones too since it is much more convenient to get a notification than to go to the website and search for the updates.

Searching the app store, no one found the app listed anymore. And my app didn't get a notification of this game update. Seems to not be functioning for this season.

what are the rest of you using to get these updates automatically? any suggestions?

bdaroz 11-01-2017 11:05

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Hainsworth (Post 1629209)
what are the rest of you using to get these updates automatically? any suggestions?

Twitter. Following @frcteams. It's sometimes a bit spammy for my taste, but the timely notices make up for it.

(And I should note, I have an extremely low tolerance for SPAM, YMMV.)

... And they do respond to tweets too!

Nathan Streeter 11-01-2017 12:21

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ATannahill (Post 1629185)
Page 34 of the manual gives an average of 5 fuel per second.

Thanks! Not sure how I missed it in my reading or in my search. Any idea where the 15 fuel/second comes from?

rich2202 11-01-2017 13:46

Re: Team Update 1 Posted
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter (Post 1629287)
Any idea where the 15 fuel/second comes from?

There was something about processing up to 8 Fuel/Second in a full hopper. So, if the High and Low hopper were full, it could process about 15 fuel/second combined.


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