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-   -   Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153450)

I_AM_Clayton 11-01-2017 11:45

Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Edited:
(poll) I'd simply like your personal opinion on which drive train you believe will be the most competitive in Steamworks.

Chris is me 11-01-2017 11:51

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
It is never "what's best", it is always "what's best for your team". The theoretical best drivetrain is just a fun thought experiment.

For the vast majority of teams, it will once again be a tank drive. A drop-center if the wheelbase is longer than it is wide (or squareish); a 4WD is fine if it's wide enough.

Some of the alignment in this game could be made a little easier with a well implemented strafing drivetrain, but I don't think the advantage is so big that the lost practice and build time required to develop this drivetrain would be fully offset.

I_AM_Clayton 11-01-2017 11:55

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1629248)
It is never "what's best", it is always "what's best for your team". The theoretical best drivetrain is just a fun thought experiment.

I'm not asking "what's best for your team when it comes to experience or time", I'm asking which drivetrain you personally believe will be most competitive when placed on the field. I attached a poll.

Joe Johnson 11-01-2017 12:53

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1629248)
<snip> a 4WD is fine if it's wide enough.

<snip>


OR if two of the wheels are not super grippy (e.g. omniwheels or just hard plastic wheels)

For that matter, I'm not sure that a simple 2WD with center wheel drives and casters front and back wouldn't be just fine this year. Don't let a ball get you high centered but that is true for pretty much any drive. High centering is never a good thing even if your robot can recover...

FWIW.

Dr. Joe J.

MARS_James 11-01-2017 12:58

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
What if my teams drive train isn't an option?

Taylor 11-01-2017 13:03

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1629316)
What if my teams drive train isn't an option?

ah, you're doing a Strandbeest, too?

EricLeifermann 11-01-2017 13:06

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1629318)
ah, you're doing a Strandbeest, too?

Hovercraft

C.Lesco 11-01-2017 13:09

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Honestly I am so behind Holonomic/omnidrive its not even funny. I think the best teams at worlds will have holo/omni as it will be able to zoom around and pick up balls the fastest. I believe that in the worlds final matches control of the balls will be the key factor as each alliance will be able to complete gears no problem (unless maybe there is a world scoring re-balancing like there was last year with the increased tower strength).

I'm interested if someone wants to argue my points, always fun to hear a new side.

Isonine 11-01-2017 13:52

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by C.Lesco (Post 1629321)
Honestly I am so behind Holonomic/omnidrive its not even funny. I think the best teams at worlds will have holo/omni as it will be able to zoom around and pick up balls the fastest. I believe that in the worlds final matches control of the balls will be the key factor as each alliance will be able to complete gears no problem (unless maybe there is a world scoring re-balancing like there was last year with the increased tower strength).

I'm interested if someone wants to argue my points, always fun to hear a new side.

And the worlds best teams will be blocking teams from getting gears. If you have holonomic you're just going to get pushed across the field.

Mike Schreiber 11-01-2017 14:03

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1629316)
What if my teams drive train isn't an option?

You mean like 8WD?

kyle_hamblett 11-01-2017 14:09

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Considering the "open field" nature of this game, tank will definitely be most effective. It also seems that historically speaking, tank has been the most successful style of drive train year after year.

Sperkowsky 11-01-2017 14:14

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
In my opinion a well executed swerve drive will be king this year.

After that we have tank.

H Drive and Mecanum Drive trains wont be bad until eliminations where they will be completely wrecked by defenders. Good luck trying to align for anything with a robot pushing yours around.

Andrew Schreiber 11-01-2017 14:22

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_hamblett (Post 1629381)
Considering the "open field" nature of this game, tank will definitely be most effective. It also seems that historically speaking, tank has been the most successful style of drive train year after year.

Well know you're mixing words.

Effective and Successful are not the same thing in this context and can't be used interchangeably.

Please clarify - when you say tank will be the most successful do you mean that you expect more winning robots to be tank drive? Or do you mean they will be more effective at achieving game objectives than any other style of drive train?

marshall 11-01-2017 14:27

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1629391)
Well know you're mixing words.

Effective and Successful are not the same thing in this context and can't be used interchangeably.

Please clarify - when you say tank will be the most successful do you mean that you expect more winning robots to be tank drive? Or do you mean they will be more effective at achieving game objectives than any other style of drive train?

As an example, Kyle's post was effective in enabling Andrew to successfully point out the difference between "effective" and "successful".

6401mark 11-01-2017 14:54

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
I don't see any need for tank treads because there is nothing to drive over, and being able to strafe seems unnecessary as well. We will use the KOP drive base, but honestly I think it's good enough for this year

bobbysq 11-01-2017 15:00

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1629319)
Hovercraft

We were planning on using BristleDrive. You attach off balance loads to 6 CIMs and attach floor brushes to the bottom of your robot.

Karibou 11-01-2017 15:06

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1629386)
H Drive and Mecanum Drive trains wont be bad until eliminations where they will be completely wrecked by defenders. Good luck trying to align for anything with a robot pushing yours around.

Wouldn't that happen to a swerve drive too?

EricLeifermann 11-01-2017 15:12

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1629386)

H Drive and Mecanum Drive trains wont be bad until eliminations where they will be completely wrecked by defenders. Good luck trying to align for anything with a robot pushing yours around.

Enjoy all those penalties for hitting people in their protected zones....

gerthworm 11-01-2017 15:22

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 1629430)
Wouldn't that happen to a swerve drive too?

For a well designed swerve drive, it should have similar traction to a tank drive, but you can point that traction in any direction you want. Combined with the high off-axis coefficient of friction of non-omni wheels, it's much harder to push a swerve drive around.


For a poorly designed swerve drive, high unexpected lateral loads will simply break it.

IronicDeadBird 11-01-2017 15:24

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
I think I'm stuck with simple drivetrains this year. Space on the robot feels more valuable, field doesn't have much in terms of obstacles.
Dunno maybe 6 - 8 wheel tanks, possibly skid steer...

Darkseer54 11-01-2017 16:04

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1629434)
Enjoy all those penalties for hitting people in their protected zones....

The only protected zone is the receiving zone...

Ekcrbe 11-01-2017 16:07

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
You can always say that a well-executed swerve drive by a team that knows both how to build it and how to get the most out of it with programming could be the most effective. That being said, the most effective drivetrain is often the one your team can drive the best and gets you where you want to go despite your opposition. The drivetrain you can drive best is the one you can practice with the most, and getting where you want to go usually means having good traction, either to run through defense or to play it.

[aside]
Yes, we can debate about whether mecanum/holonomic allows you to juke out your defenders, making traction irrelevant, but suffice it to say that finding this level of skill and control in a driver and robot, if it exists, is rare.
[/aside]

There are a select few teams that have the capacity to build a complex drivetrain fast and train their drivers to a high degree of skill with it, but for everyone else, stick to a 4/6/8-wheel skid steer and it will be the most effective for you. To fulfill Andrew's definitions, a skid steer will be the most effective drivetrain choice for most teams, and as such it will be the most successful drivetrain on aggregate across FRC.

EricLeifermann 11-01-2017 16:13

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkseer54 (Post 1629472)
The only protected zone is the receiving zone...

True, but he didn't say where he was going to hit them. And if I'm in my key up against the boiler and they're hitting me they are more likely to get a 5 second penalty rule.

Smart defense is going to be played in the middle of the field, where there is close to 0 chance of getting a penalty. In the middle of the field, it doesn't matter what your drive is if you know how to drive smart.

That said there are only a few drives I would do this year and standard west-coast is at the top of that list.

Poseidon5817 11-01-2017 16:52

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
A well-executed swerve will be the most effective this year. With an open field layout, but some areas where maneuvering is essential, not to mention its ability to resist being pushed by rotating the wheels against defense, it should be great. Steamworks is essentially swerve heaven.

That being said, many teams will be trying swerve for the first time this year, and from experience, that scares me. To new teams doing swerve: please use the resources available to you to succeed at its design and programming: I don't want to see any other teams sitting still in most of their matches or twitching and burning holes in the carpet, like we and other teams have done. Also, feel free to shoot me a PM if you need any other help.

Xanawatt 12-01-2017 15:30

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Can you start to make this an annual post like the score predictions post? I would love to see the change over time.

efoote868 12-01-2017 15:47

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1629516)
A well-executed swerve will be the most effective this year.

Most teams attempting swerve will not be well-executed.

I would be surpised if something other than 6 wheel drives to be the majority of drive trains. And since most perennial powerhouses are vehemently opposed to purely holonomic drive trains (mecanum, kiwi, omni), that leaves tank and swerve, with a smidgen of butterfly.

I'm guessing > 75% of robots on Einsteins will have 6 wheel drive.

I_AM_Clayton 13-01-2017 00:09

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanawatt (Post 1630118)
Can you start to make this an annual post like the score predictions post? I would love to see the change over time.

Will do! As long as I remember/time is available.

PayneTrain 13-01-2017 06:23

Re: Honest opinion on 2017 drivetrains
 
I am very interested to see if a team will be going after a drive style seen on 9973 at 2013 MTTD or 33's 2014 drive and I will be monitoring for their performance.


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