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-   -   Rapid fuel feeding into shooter (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153576)

Brandon_L 13-01-2017 13:17

Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
It seems we're all aiming for speed on our shooters, trying to max out balls per second, but I haven't seen a thread yet on how to feed these shooters at a matching rate. Just thought I'd open a discussion, as I think this has the possibility of being the most overlooked component this season. (This is sort of a compliment thread to Realistic high goal scoring rate)

We've seen the blender method used in some robot in 3 days videos, and it does work but it takes too much time to get the balls to the shooter in my opinion.

I'm a fan of the Zou Keeper single file line fed into the shooter, but this presents obvious space usage issues (limiting how many balls you can hold) and human loading issues

Perhaps some combination could work - A blender that lines the balls into a single file chute as you drive across the field so you have a stock of balls ready to go at the boiler, but you could only have so many balls ready to go and you're stuck again with the feed rate of the blender.

TL;DR How is everyone planning to get their fuel from a jumbled mess to the shooter in a timely fashion?

s_forbes 13-01-2017 13:21

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
You call that a blender? THIS is a blender!

caleby 13-01-2017 13:30

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BndIuKTXsI

JohnFogarty 13-01-2017 14:01

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Those wheel agitators are nuts hahaaa

Cothron Theiss 13-01-2017 14:01

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1630569)
You call that a blender? THIS is a blender!

Wow! All those videos look seriously impressive. I do find it interesting that you were able to shoot so many shots in such a short span of time that they knocked each other out of the way as they slowed at the apex of the arc. Do you mind sharing some of the specs on motor, gearing, and wheel?

In regards to other methods of feeding Fuel, an auger similar to those in Icee machines might be an excellent solution. I've seen several people try homemade versions of an Archimedes screw, but I think that the solid shaft and the rather uniform (albeit spiral) travel of the Fuel in the hopper makes for a more difficult integration than the combination of agitation and propulsion the augers offer.


s_forbes 13-01-2017 16:05

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1630612)
Do you mind sharing some of the specs on motor, gearing, and wheel?

The shooter wheel is a 6" AM wheel, geared down roughly 4:1 from a CIM (It goes way too slow, but that was the quick easy way to build it at the time). The backing material for the shooter is a slightly flexible corrugated composite hi-tech material (cardboard). The recycling can is just a recycling can with a hole in it. Stick some shelf liner on the end of a drill (high speed preferable) and watch the balls fly out!

Chris is me 13-01-2017 16:08

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
What's wrong with the ol' flat polycord elevator we all know and love? Are you specifically looking for "many-to-one" solutions?

The fastest accurate high capacity shooter I can remember is 217's 2009 robot, still one of my all time favorites. Not saying a powered helix is the right call for this game, but it's a hell of a mechanism.

Cothron Theiss 13-01-2017 19:46

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1630706)
The shooter wheel is a 6" AM wheel, geared down roughly 4:1 from a CIM (It goes way too slow, but that was the quick easy way to build it at the time). The backing material for the shooter is a slightly flexible corrugated composite hi-tech material (cardboard). The recycling can is just a recycling can with a hole in it. Stick some shelf liner on the end of a drill (high speed preferable) and watch the balls fly out!

Thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1630714)
What's wrong with the ol' flat polycord elevator we all know and love? Are you specifically looking for "many-to-one" solutions?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by using a polycord elevator for getting Fuel out of a large hopper and into the shooter mechanism. Granted, I wasn't around in 2009 or 2012, so I've only seen polycord as a popular intake component for Stronghold.

Lil' Lavery 13-01-2017 19:53

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
If you don't rob momentum from the fuel, gravity can feed them at a pretty quick rate. ;)

smistthegreat 13-01-2017 20:14

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1630843)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by using a polycord elevator for getting Fuel out of a large hopper and into the shooter mechanism. Granted, I wasn't around in 2009 or 2012, so I've only seen polycord as a popular intake component for Stronghold.

254 is a good example of this. There were a lot of successful robots in 2009 that had a general design of something like "Wide intake, large hopper, polycord elevator, fast shooter."

Lil' Lavery 13-01-2017 20:28

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
When it comes to quick feed conveyors, 469 is 2006 is what I think of.

Brandon_L 13-01-2017 21:03

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1630714)
Are you specifically looking for "many-to-one" solutions?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1630850)
If you don't rob momentum from the fuel, gravity can feed them at a pretty quick rate. ;)

Gravity is pretty great if they're already single file, which is the issue I'm bringing up. Otherwise my guess is it would jam. I guess I should be more specific:

You could do a helix at the cost of volume, and have the balls single file and easily feed into a shooter. Alternatively, if you just have a bucket o' balls, whats the fastest way to get them single file into the shooter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1630569)
You call that a blender? THIS is a blender!

This has potential

Billfred 22-01-2017 11:29

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
5402 is a disciple of the Stephen Kowski School of How To Play Lunacy. No unnecessary choke points (though we will add a little width into the central storage area for extra capacity), sort 'em out early, flow through and get 'em out.

Our game strategy is distilling to "deliver a gear, and get what you're going to get at the boiler quickly". This is probably not the game that is going to win Einstein, but we're rebuilding from missing state last year and we think this will get us back on track. (And look cool as all hell in the process.)

Tio 23-01-2017 11:40

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
what fabric are you using?

s_forbes 23-01-2017 13:30

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tio (Post 1635102)
what fabric are you using?

If you are asking about the prototype videos that we posted, we are using a sticky shelf lining material from Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Duck-12-x...Liner/16486841 It has good grip on the balls, but if you use it like we did in those blender prototypes it wears out extremely quickly. Once it wears out it doesn't kick the balls out of the bin nearly as fast.

Conor Ryan 24-01-2017 11:29

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
25 in 2006 had a brilliant shooter and straight up dominated Aim High. Essentially they had a flywheel and a mill to feed the ball. Flywheel on a live axle, and then a mill that went around the flywheel on a dead axle, both were powered by different motors. The mill allowed them to control the out put of the balls effectively, and run it backwards if anything jammed. Take a look at any of their match videos.

We are currently working on a prototype that will shoot 3 balls wide with a mill that goes around it. Looking forward to the results.

Skyehawk 24-01-2017 11:59

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan (Post 1635572)
25 in 2006 had a brilliant shooter and straight up dominated Aim High. Essentially they had a flywheel and a mill to feed the ball. Flywheel on a live axle, and then a mill that went around the flywheel on a dead axle, both were powered by different motors. The mill allowed them to control the out put of the balls effectively, and run it backwards if anything jammed. Take a look at any of their match videos.

We are currently working on a prototype that will shoot 3 balls wide with a mill that goes around it. Looking forward to the results.

I am a firm believer in the wide shooters. Some really basic prototyping (i.e. a plywood box and some broom handles with poly cord as actuators, all run on cordless drills) proved an efficient way to unleash the hoard, and that was just guessing where the actuators should be and relying on gravity. From the testing that I witnessed we sent 42 balls out in 3.7 seconds, not bad IMO.

JohnFogarty 24-01-2017 13:02

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyehawk (Post 1635588)
From the testing that I witnessed we sent 42 balls out in 3.7 seconds, not bad IMO.

How many made it into the goal?

Skyehawk 24-01-2017 13:21

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
This was a hopper test, no shooter on it...

BrendanB 24-01-2017 13:36

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1635151)
If you are asking about the prototype videos that we posted, we are using a sticky shelf lining material from Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Duck-12-x...Liner/16486841 It has good grip on the balls, but if you use it like we did in those blender prototypes it wears out extremely quickly. Once it wears out it doesn't kick the balls out of the bin nearly as fast.

Have you guys tried some of the flat polycord belting from McMaster as a replacement? Might have a longer robot life compared to drawer liners.

maxnz 24-01-2017 13:41

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
I've been pondering this over the last couple weeks, so this is what I've thought of. We're building and testing it this week. Basically the balls roll in one direction and fall down into a chute that takes them to the shooter. They are able to fall into the chute whenever they want, which helps prevent jamming.

s_forbes 24-01-2017 13:43

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1635665)
Have you guys tried some of the flat polycord belting from McMaster as a replacement? Might have a longer robot life compared to drawer liners.

We haven't tried that, but that's a great suggestion for a flap material. (link to mcmaster product)

We ditched this mixer concept for a different one, so you won't see a high powered trashcan blender on our robot this year.

Cothron Theiss 24-01-2017 14:00

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxnz (Post 1635670)
I've been pondering this over the last couple weeks, so this is what I've thought of. We're building and testing it this week. Basically the balls roll in one direction and fall down into a chute that takes them to the shooter. They are able to fall into the chute whenever they want, which helps prevent jamming.

You only included the assembly file in your GrabCAD. Without all of the parts files, we can't view the assembly. I suggest you look for a button in SolidWorks called "Pack and Go." It'll create a compressed folder of all the parts you need form the assembly.

Lireal 24-01-2017 14:08

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1635684)
You only included the assembly file in your GrabCAD. Without all of the parts files, we can't view the assembly. I suggest you look for a button in SolidWorks called "Pack and Go." It'll create a compressed folder of all the parts you need form the assembly.

I could view it. Just click on the ASM name and you can see it in browser.

Skyehawk 24-01-2017 14:15

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxnz (Post 1635670)
I've been pondering this over the last couple weeks, so this is what I've thought of. We're building and testing it this week. Basically the balls roll in one direction and fall down into a chute that takes them to the shooter. They are able to fall into the chute whenever they want, which helps prevent jamming.

When that hopper and feeder are static it will probably jam. It most likely needs some form of an agitator, which could be as simple as shaking the whole robot with the drivetrain. I only say this because of the several different arrangements of hopper concepts we tried there was almost always a configuration in which the balls 'self-locked' over the exit of the hopper. Not to say there isn't a passive design that works, we just didn't come across it.

IronMustang9 24-01-2017 14:42

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Maxnz-Looks like a cool design. In your drawing I see an inner radius of a circle roughly 6.5 from the center of the 2 7/8" banebot wheel, which looks to be intended for contact with the 5" dia. balls, but the outer circle is roughly 9.5" radius from the wheel center. This would not make contact with the ball that I can see so I am just curious as to the purpose of this outer radius in the design?

Thanks!

Nessie 24-01-2017 16:01

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxnz (Post 1635670)
I've been pondering this over the last couple weeks, so this is what I've thought of. We're building and testing it this week. Basically the balls roll in one direction and fall down into a chute that takes them to the shooter. They are able to fall into the chute whenever they want, which helps prevent jamming.

We prototyped something similar to this and found the balls would "bridge" against the back wall above the trough. You may need to look in to an agitator of some kind. Oscillating the back wall with a cam might be enough to break up the jams.

Brandon_L 26-01-2017 15:05

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
For those not shooting x balls wide, has anyone tried a polycord conveyor that funnels the balls from many wide to one wide?

Something like just a regular wide conveyor but with guides in it like so:
/ \

Do you think this has the possibility of jamming?

Skyehawk 26-01-2017 15:16

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1636723)
For those not shooting x balls wide, has anyone tried a polycord conveyor that funnels the balls from many wide to one wide?

Something like just a regular wide conveyor but with guides in it like so:
/ \

Do you think this has the possibility of jamming?

I think it has the possibility of jamming at low speeds (a few feet/sec). It may have potential ludicrous belt speeds. I would be interested if anyone tries it at high speeds.

You may want to look into non-straight geometries, somethings like the attached image may work better. The Y component is exaggerated, you would probably want the width change to happen over a much longer length.

s_forbes 26-01-2017 15:29

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1636723)
For those not shooting x balls wide, has anyone tried a polycord conveyor that funnels the balls from many wide to one wide?

Something like just a regular wide conveyor but with guides in it like so:
/ \

Do you think this has the possibility of jamming?

A good way to prevent jamming is to make the entire "floor" of the hopper move. This moves jammed balls out of the way so that new balls can fall into their place.

This is the concept we are planning to use, modeled at 1/3 scale with gamepieces that are affordable. This spits balls out into two streams, but if you make half of the hopper it should shoot balls out into one stream reliably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQRavPxOIM0

Brandon_L 26-01-2017 16:18

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
I was thinking more vertical like most were in 09 (poofs, ect) but just with guides inside. Maybe I'll make a terrible paint drawing in a bit.

I think Skyehawk saw what I was trying to get out, and I agree with what he had to say

Skyehawk 26-01-2017 16:28

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1636756)
I was thinking more vertical like most were in 09 (poofs, ect) but just with guides inside. Maybe I'll make a terrible paint drawing in a bit.

I think Skyehawk saw what I was trying to get out, and I agree with what he had to say

I think we are on the same page here,
What would happen if you had the / \ but ran the center belts faster (different sized pulleys) to evacuate the middle and let the guides migrate the outside balls into the faster moving middle? Someone PLEASE prototype this. :)

Brandon Holley 26-01-2017 16:56

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1636738)
A good way to prevent jamming is to make the entire "floor" of the hopper move. This moves jammed balls out of the way so that new balls can fall into their place.

This is the concept we are planning to use, modeled at 1/3 scale with gamepieces that are affordable. This spits balls out into two streams, but if you make half of the hopper it should shoot balls out into one stream reliably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQRavPxOIM0

Great minds think alike! We've done an extensive amount of scale modeling using the bad boys below. 2.97:1 scale with really similar materials and the exact same hole pattern!



-Brando

Brandon_L 26-01-2017 17:01

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley (Post 1636778)
Great minds think alike! We've done an extensive amount of scale modeling using the bad boys below. 2.97:1 scale with really similar materials and the exact same hole pattern!

-Brando

Would you happen to have a source for those handy?

bkahl 26-01-2017 17:18

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1636781)
Would you happen to have a source for those handy?

IIRC they are just practice golf balls. Available at your local Sporting Goods store, or Amazon

Brandon Holley 26-01-2017 17:20

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1636790)
IIRC they are just practice golf balls. Available at your local Sporting Goods store, or Amazon

Yep thats the right link.

-Brando

lukisupercool 26-01-2017 19:17

Re: Rapid fuel feeding into shooter
 
Brandon u r alpha


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