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Team Update 2
Find the newest one here: https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate02.pdf
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Re: Team Update 2
TL;DR Velcro isn't banned yet, but "superfusion" is, whatever that means.
(Q&A is also down, so no definitive answer :/) |
Re: Team Update 2
key points
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I would guess that superfusion might be something like melting the end of a nylon rope into a feature that is used in climbing. For instance... melting the end of the rope into a solid hook shape or something....
Just my guess... |
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You could, in theory, still use a rope that acts like the loop-side of velcro that you could grip with hook-side on your robot. |
Re: Team Update 2
Nothing stopping the velcro brigade from fashioning a rope that coincidentally manages to mesh with the hook side of hook-and-loop fastening...
(at least until someone does it and hurts the GDC's feelings because someone found a way that made their challenge easier than they wanted it to be) |
Re: Team Update 2
Velcro only on the end of the rope seems to be banned. I think Velcro sewn along the length of the rope is also banned, or will be one you guys push on it. Velcro as rope probably has a short lifespan as well. I'd suggest you temporarily forget Velcro exists and see if you can come up with a different climbing design, just to save time. It's not like a Velcro climber is hard, people.
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They are really going to need to address this Velcro thing one way or another at some point. I'm a bit worried that the Velcro questions in the Q&A are going to be dismissed as "can't rule on legality of specific designs" or something like that, and we'll carry this ambiguity past the first week of build season.
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Re: Team Update 2
Yeah, I read that as saying "you can't use a strip of Velcro and claim it is the mechanism by which you are preventing the end of your rope from fraying", as it then has more purpose than simply fusing the end of the rope.
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I actually don't see any prevention of velcro in the current rules, Team updates, and Q&A AS LONG AS you pay attention to how the material is constructed, and how you attach it to your rope.
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Assuming the GDC wants to ban Velcro, their easiest option is to just ban the use of hook and loop fastener to attach to the field.
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From what I interpret, you're still allowed to stitch non-tape velcro to the end of your rope, just not fuse your rope with velcro.
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Re: Team Update 2
If the Q&A is fixed long enough I think the Velcro question will be answered. But with I am thinking the way the update 2 is written, it will not be legal.
On the other hand you should be weave fibers in the rope to simulate the hoop part of the velcro. That would be enough to thread the rope on the lift drum. Think 'Superfrayed" the polar opposite of superfusion. |
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I think if you read for intent and not just wording at this point.... the GDC could have very easily have just said the rope is a standard field element. They probably would have liked to, but know that many climbers are going to damage the rope over time, which will lead to a lot of backlash, so they put the onus on teams to bring their own rope.
If the wording is ambiguous, they will continue to qualify the wording to meet the intent, or teams will just run the risk of designing around something that gets banned post bag/tag. Yes, there are ways to solve the problem via rope design, but the intent is to solve it via robot design (acquire/climb). I really don't see an about-face on this direction, and I think the very few updates we've gotten so far have been consistent with my reading of the original intent. If they are going to argue that the 4" whipped end cannot be modified to make acquisition easier, ONLY to prevent fraying, I cannot see why they would say the rest of the rope can be modified to make acquisition easier (short of the approved knotting). |
Re: Team Update 2
it's important to remember that the 4" end that has fraying prevention applied and the point that the rope length is measures to don't have to be the same thing. the rope anatomy diagram shows this clearly.
you can keep the end of your rope from fraying (using legal methods), and then tie that end of the rope into a knot or a loop, and that is NOT superfusion. |
Re: Team Update 2
My question is couldn't someone just braid, mesh or tie a rope of less than 1 inch out of yarn that would be strong enough to support a robot, and still use the "hook Portion" of the Velcro on the robots spooling mechanism? I feel like that would be really easy to create, and still have the "Velcro" properties that everyone is trying to achieve.
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Here's my $.02.
I "think" they don't want Velcro used, but the clarification seems to only apply to the modification to the rope to prevent fraying. Quote:
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Re: Team Update 2
Once robotics becomes an exercise in linguistics and semantics, we've lost our way.
Instead of saying, "Hmmm, having my robot climb a rope is a challenge. Lets see if we can do that." Teams are saying, "Hmmm, attaching to and climbing up Material X is easier than rope, and provides less of a challenge. Let's see if we can use Material X." While there's nothing wrong with this, technically, it is not in the "spirit" of the challenge. As a teacher, I give game/challenge projects to my students. Every year I need to field a variety of "why can't I..." questions because they want to bend the challenge to meet their design preference. I know this is NOT the same thing as the "velcro controversy", but it has the same flavor. Go to the rope section at Home Depot. If there is a spool of Velcro there, you have an argument. |
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there are MANY examples of velcro that are not legal, but not because they are velcro. |
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I'm going to stake a claim that hoop-side velcro strips will remain legal when all is said and done. We can keep lawyering the rules until you have a very fuzzy rope, and it would still work. It's just a *very* good solution to the problem. (Although the Ri3D 1.0 version still requires the drum to move. Lets see if we can improve that).
And I don't buy that lawyering the rules is outside the spirit of the game. This is a design challenge, with a very specific spec. If the "client" wanted something different, they'd put it in the spec. And along those lines, if they wanted us to solve a specific rope climbing problem, they would have made the ropes a standardized game pieces and made us all use the same thing. (sorry, this should probably go in the velcro thread) |
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I would never have thought of using Velcro if you had left me to my own devices. |
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Speaking only for myself, unless we get clarification I would rule as a RI that Velcro hook or loop tape meets the definition of a rope. I do not believe that my interpretation is the only one, and frankly that worries me.
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Re: Team Update 2
Ok , I guess I am missing something here. In the team update 2 why are there two knots in the Rope Anatomy diagram in Fig 9-2?
Also is the end with the loop, showing an option that you could use a loop or a straight piece with fraying prevention? |
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the loop on the end is made using a segment of the rope, as a result, the end with fraying prevention is not part of the loop. since the loop is longer than the fray-prevented part, the loop constitutes the end of the rope for the purpose of length measurement. |
Re: Team Update 2
"...whipped or fused ONLY to prevent fraying." I interpret that to mean 'for no other purpose.' Q&A does not like to address specific design issues. They are trying to let us know Velcro will not be legal without saying it out loud.
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Re: Team Update 2
From the blog it looks like they are allowing Velcro (or a velcro-like material) to be used.
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Question on the whole velcro thing. It looked like the loop holding the rope up for most of the match was made of velcro. Should teams be concerned that their rope won't deploy properly and they won't be able to climb?
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By the first definition, it was interpreted as you need 40kPa + 1 fuel in goal minimum to get the RP. Now you only need at least the 40kPa. |
Re: Team Update 2
This should settle the question. From the blog:
Q6: Velcro usage on a rope. Can a team use Velcro on a rope that they bring to the field? Can they place Velcro above the 4 inches that secures the rope end? Can it be place on the 4 inches that secures the rope? Answer: Please see Team Update 02. Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part D). |
Re: Team Update 2
Yes, Velcro on rope is allowed per Q&A. However Velcro (only, to climb) is not allowed as it does not meet rope definition.
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