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Bkeeneykid

13-01-2017 18:16

[FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Posted on the FRC Blog, Jan 13th, 2017: http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...need-answering

Quote:

Questions That Need Answering
Written by Frank Merrick.

As many of you probably know, the official FRC Q&A system is down right now. We're attempting to address a security issue. While we are working very hard on this as a top priority, we can't yet predict when the system will be back up. And, we know you have more questions about rope than have ever been asked in the history of ropes, which is a very long time indeed.* We do have answers ready to go on many of those. We were waiting until Team Update 02 was finished and released before we published those answers, as they are tied together, but at the same time we released the Team Update, we pulled the Q&A system down, so those answers didn't go out.

To help teams through those Q&A system withdrawal pains, we're publishing below a few key questions and what their official answers will be once the system comes back up.

Q6: Velcro usage on a rope. Can a team use Velcro on a rope that they bring to the field? Can they place Velcro above the 4 inches that secures the rope end? Can it be place on the 4 inches that secures the rope?

Answer: Please see Team Update 02. Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part D).

Q45: Does a strip of Velcro count as a ROPE? To expand on Q6, which asks about adding Velcro to a rope: Would a strip of Velcro itself be a valid and legal ROPE? By I04-D, a rope must "consist entirely of flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven or braided together".... (there were more words on this ~sales job~ question, but we omitted them for brevity.)

Answer: There are so many configurations and styles of hook and loop fastener that it would be impossible for us to say that every single one meets the requirements of I04. However, we feel the elements required to meet I04 (with the recent Team Update and the answer to Q6) are pretty clear. If there is some specific element of the definition that concerns you, please rephrase and ask again (once the Q&A system is back up, of course).

Frank

* "Hey, let's let the teams bring their own ropes!" is starting to rank up there with "Hey, let's have changeable defenses!"

Gravity

13-01-2017 18:20

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Well, that pretty much sums it up. Back to prototyping!

tjf	13-01-2017 18:38

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

"Hey, let's let the teams bring their own ropes!" is starting to rank up there with "Hey, let's have changeable defenses!"

I have a feeling that 20 years from now, Frank Merrick Jr. is going to look back and go "God, defenses were an awesome but difficult idea, then he let teams bring their own ropes. And THEN THINGS GOT INTERESTING."

Bkeeneykid

13-01-2017 18:41

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjf (Post 1630813)

Welcome to the 2018 FIRST Robotics Competition, and the game: Water Game. Teams must bring their own water. Water must consist of a low viscosity and at it's maximum width must not be larger than 12 in.

MrRoboSteve

13-01-2017 18:51

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

1 Attachment(s)

Time to apply for the new volunteer role.

Attachment 21531

SenorZ

13-01-2017 19:09

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Wait... spacetime is often referred to as a "fabric", and fabric is woven fibers...

My spacetime rope will allow me to instantly warp to the top.

mman1506

13-01-2017 19:50

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

I'm going to say there's a 50% chance of a thread along the lines of "inspectors at [week 1 event] said Velcro was not allowed". The best way to know at the moment that Velcro is legal is that they have not expressly said it was illegal.

efoote868

13-01-2017 21:10

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1630847)

My guess is it'll be started by a team showing up with this:

Kevin Sevcik

13-01-2017 21:58

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

I have to say this is the most boring answer to the question. I'm going to be SO bored of inspecting velcro ropes and velcro winches by the end of practice day.

Squillo

13-01-2017 22:06

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

But I STILL don't know if it's legal. My guess would be that the loopy side might be but the hook side might not? Are little plastic hooks "fibers"? Is velcro "twisted, tied, woven or braided"? If fibers are "woven" but also have parts (other fibers, extensions of the fibers) sticking out like pile, do they count as "woven"?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Time to get out the microscope, I think. Oy.

mrnoble

13-01-2017 22:11

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

I'm still fairly confident that <50% of teams will have a reliable and working climbing mechanism in competition, Velcro or no. I'm also confident that no team will get past quals without one.

Maybe, to address inspectors' boredom, we could have a new award, given to the team that best addresses the challenge WITHOUT Velcro.

Basel A

13-01-2017 22:16

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squillo (Post 1630894)

Yeah, the question wasn't really answered. I suppose people are reading between the lines that if hooks or loops were inherently illegal, we would've been told so? That's not very convincing, though. There's room for this interpretation to be wrong.

JasdeepSadam

13-01-2017 22:32

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

You are my hero for this

JasdeepSadam

13-01-2017 22:33

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

[Welcome to the 2018 FIRST Robotics Competition, and the game: Water Game. Teams must bring their own water. Water must consist of a low viscosity and at it's maximum width must not be larger than 12 in.=JasdeepSadam;1630905]You are my hero for this[Welcome to the 2018 FIRST Robotics Competition, and the game: Water Game. Teams must bring their own water. Water must consist of a low viscosity and at it's maximum width must not be larger than 12 in.
]

engunneer

13-01-2017 23:22

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squillo (Post 1630894)

my understanding of this is that loops can be legal (all other rules still apply), but hook can't be legal because they are molded plastic? The hooks themselves aren't fibers woven into the rope, but the loops are.

Edit: this video make it look like the hooks are cut threads of plastic.

Caleb Sykes

13-01-2017 23:24

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1630897)

I'm still fairly confident that <50% of teams will have a reliable and working climbing mechanism in competition, Velcro or no. I'm also confident that no team will get past quals without one.

I am confident that at least 1 team will get past quals without one.

mrnoble

13-01-2017 23:37

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Probably you're right. But not many.

scca229

14-01-2017 09:06

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1630816)

But can I use this in my water?

prensing

14-01-2017 10:42

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

What is still not clear to me is whether there is plain "velcro" strapping that can hold 130+ lbs. If not, it is not clear is sewing velcro onto a nylon strap would be legal.

engunneer

14-01-2017 13:30

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by prensing (Post 1631037)

What is still not clear to me is whether there is plain "velcro" strapping that can hold 130+ lbs. If not, it is not clear is sewing velcro onto a nylon strap would be legal.

The rope does not need to be constructed of a uniform material. The material used do not need to be the full length of the rope.

efoote868

14-01-2017 13:37

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by prensing (Post 1631037)

What is still not clear to me is whether there is plain "velcro" strapping that can hold 130+ lbs. If not, it is not clear is sewing velcro onto a nylon strap would be legal.

If you don't want to make the argument that sewing isn't a form of weaving, can you not think of a way to braid or weave or knot it into/onto a strap?

ginger3.14

14-01-2017 14:32

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

The Velcro website uses the word woven in their product description.... https://www.velcro.com/business/products/textile-hook-and-loop My team is going to use this as justification if necessary.

cbale2000

14-01-2017 14:49

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

So am I the only one who even after this blog post and Team Update 2 still cannot tell if and under what circumstances velcro is legal to use on a rope? :confused:

bobbysq

14-01-2017 17:01

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1631157)

So am I the only one who even after this blog post and Team Update 2 still cannot tell if and under what circumstances velcro is legal to use on a rope? :confused:

It must be loop side
It must not have adhesive on the back
It must follow the rest of rope rules

ollien

14-01-2017 17:16

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1631220)

It must be loop side
It must not have adhesive on the back
It must follow the rest of rope rules

Would it be legal to sew some Velcro onto the rope that is hook on the inside and loop on the outside? Might we have to file off the hooks?

apm4242

14-01-2017 17:39

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1631220)

It must be loop side

Hooks might be ok, too. According to this, the hooks on 3M's hook and loop with a plain back (no adhesive) are made from woven nylon or woven polyester. Product numbers SJ3401, SJ3402, SJ3476, SJ3477.

Snap shot attached if you don't want to go to the pdf.

Basel A

14-01-2017 18:06

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1631228)

Would it be legal to sew some Velcro onto the rope that is hook on the inside and loop on the outside? Might we have to file off the hooks?

Why wouldn't you just buy plain-backed? Pretty cheap on McMaster: https://www.mcmaster.com/#hook-and-loop-fasteners

ollien

14-01-2017 18:13

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1631243)

Why wouldn't you just buy plain-backed? Pretty cheap on McMaster: https://www.mcmaster.com/#hook-and-loop-fasteners

Because I couldn't find any :) Didn't even think to check McMaster. Ordering now.

bdaroz

14-01-2017 18:16

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1631244)

Because I couldn't find any :) Didn't even think to check McMaster. Ordering now.

In our rookie team last year we wondered around kickoff why everyone was making jokes about the McMaster catalog.

We get it now. :D

Lil' Lavery

14-01-2017 19:00

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1631125)

If you don't want to make the argument that sewing isn't a form of weaving, can you not think of a way to braid or weave or knot it into/onto a strap?

We spent some significant time prototyping weaving velcro into our rope today. Our best results came with using string to tie the velcro, however we have concerns that it may be interpreted as "whipping," which is specifically only allowed for preventing fray.

EricH

14-01-2017 19:24

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Before sewing Velcro onto your ropes, double-check Q6's answer. Emphasis mine:

Quote:

Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part D).

Cue debate on whether sewing Velcro onto the rope counts as sticking it on or weaving it in.

ollien

15-01-2017 02:48

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1631279)

Before sewing Velcro onto your ropes, double-check Q6's answer. Emphasis mine:

Cue debate on whether sewing Velcro onto the rope counts as sticking it on or weaving it in.

Drat. If you can't wrap velcro around a rope, why would sewing it be any more legal?

GaryVoshol

15-01-2017 06:56

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

The question is, are sewing and weaving the same thing?

Ask any craftsperson, and likely the answer will be No. You sew woven things together.

From Dictionary.com

Sew:

Quote:

1.
to join or attach by stitches.
2.
to make, repair, etc., (a garment) by such means.
3.
to enclose or secure with stitches:
to sew flour in a bag.
4.
to close (a hole, wound, etc.) by means of stitches (usually followed by up).
5.
to work with a needle and thread or with a sewing machine.

Weave:

Quote:

1.
to interlace (threads, yarns, strips, fibrous material, etc.) so as to form a fabric or material.
2.
to form by interlacing threads, yarns, strands, or strips of some material:
to weave a basket; to weave cloth.
3.
to form by combining various elements or details into a connected whole:
to weave a tale; to weave a plan.
4.
to introduce as an element or detail into a connected whole (usually followed by in or into):
She wove an old folk melody into her latest musical composition.
5.
to direct or move along in a winding or zigzag course; move from side to side, especially to avoid obstructions:
to weave one's way through traffic.
6.
to form or construct something, as fabric, by interlacing threads, yarns, strips, etc.
7.
to compose a connected whole by combining various elements or details.
8.
to be or become formed or composed from the interlacing of materials or the combining of various elements:
The yarn wove into a beautiful fabric.
9.
to move or proceed in a winding course or from side to side:
dancers weaving in time to the music.

(several of those definitions are abstractions of the original meaning of making fabric)

Bruceb

15-01-2017 09:40

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

The OP stated this

Answer: Please see Team Update 02. Non-adhesive-backed hook and loop fastener may be part of, or the entirety of, a legal ROPE, provided that the ROPE is entirely made of "flexible, non-metallic fibers twisted, tied, woven, or braided together" per I04 (e.g. something stuck to or wrapped around the outside of the ROPE does not satisfy this requirement unless it's whipping as permitted per I04 part

I would argue that sewing is just a former of tieing

mrnoble

15-01-2017 09:52

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

People. Do we really want to put together a plan in which one of the major objectives of the game will rely on our ability to debate the meaning of words with an inspector? When we still have five weeks to design, prototype, and test? When there are dozens of viable alternatives? For instance, have we tried combing fibers out of something else that is, inarguably, rope, and tested them against the hook side of Velcro for adhesion? Just one of many options.

I implore you to not spend your mental energy on preparing your argument for the inspectors. We all have better things to be thinking about and working on.

Thayer McCollum

15-01-2017 12:47

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1631445)

I'll second this. There are plenty of excellent ropes and excellent climber ideas that don't need to involve velcro in any way. I think that if you're using semantics to pass inspection you're trying hard to be lazy (Trust me I'm really good at doing it). I personally think it will be more interesting if everyone's robot isn't the same. (Cue joke about 2015 robot design here.)

AdamHeard

15-01-2017 12:53

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thayer McCollum (Post 1631484)

I'll second this. There are plenty of excellent ropes and excellent climber ideas that don't need to involve velcro in any way. I think that if you're using semantics to pass inspection you're trying hard to be lazy (Trust me I'm really good at doing it). I personally think it will be more interesting if everyone's robot isn't the same. (Cue joke about 2015 robot design here.)

Arguably that's half my job as an engineer.

EricH

15-01-2017 17:57

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1631416)

Drat. If you can't wrap velcro around a rope, why would sewing it be any more legal?

Good question. But, team 4466 asked about sewing directly, https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/156. We'll see how that turns out.

flemdogmillion

15-01-2017 18:22

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Oh god. This is a tricky one.

Non-metallic is easy.

The loop side has fibers twisted an/or woven in, just loosely. So I guess that counts.

The hook side, well, if the hooks are made of heavy fibers, it depends all on how they are attached to the backing. If they are woven in, then it's all good.

Either, way, you'll need to find double-sided Velcro or sew two strips back-to-back.

EDesbiens

15-01-2017 21:03

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

I bought 10 meters of loop velcro this morning (the cashier didn't understand why I only wanted both hook AND loop) and, this afternoon, I managed to make a robot climb 6' high on that strip and to add about 150 pounds on it without ripping it.

I highly recommend simply buying 1" velcro... It's cheap and you don't risk anything... :)

rich2202

16-01-2017 08:18

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve (Post 1630819)

Time to apply for the new volunteer role.

Attachment 21531

I wonder if RI's will approve "typical rope", and anything else will be deferred to a "rope" line at the Inspection Station that is staffed by the LRI.

Bruceb

16-01-2017 10:21

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDesbiens (Post 1631659)

How straight does it hang after being wrapped up?

GeeTwo

16-01-2017 22:50

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1631445)

^^ This. We used a window motor today to climb a COTS poly 3/8" rope (no mods other than a cut and light fusing with a heat gun), lifting its 14 pound battery and other mechanisms. All the magic was on the winch side. Apart from a lumber frame, everything was standard FRC components built with tools available to nearly all teams. If it weren't that the large diameter of the default rope (6 ton line? really?:ahh: ) would require gearing farther down and a larger drum, we would consider using it.

gblake

16-01-2017 23:16

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Surely if fuzzy polyethylene rope snags on my calluses, Velcro is completely unnecessary.

See GeeTwo's post, and the one he quoted.

Time management is more important than Velcro management.

Whose team's project plan has a box labeled lawyer-the-rules, or one called hope-to-win-a-debate-with-an-inspector?

Know what I mean?

kprzewodek

17-01-2017 11:12

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 1632194)

Surely if fuzzy polyethylene rope snags on my calluses, Velcro is completely unnecessary.

Absolutely! Solid braid nylon and polyester rope found at Home Depot works extremely well. I would say as good or better than Velcro strap from our testing.

Eric Scheuing

17-01-2017 11:17

Re: [FRC Blog] Questions That Need Answering

Quote:

Originally Posted by kprzewodek (Post 1632335)

Absolutely! Solid braid nylon and polyester rope found at Home Depot works extremely well. I would say as good or better than Velcro strap from our testing.

I can confirm that this type of rope sticks to the hook side of Velcro.

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