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-   -   Key Violation G17 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153716)

Logan Byers 16-01-2017 11:54
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorZ (Post 1631858)
Just for clarification, here is my Q&A question: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/155

I was more concerned about the time AFTER the initial foul call.

Hypothetical situation:
Blue robot #1 (B1) drives to the edge of opponent launchpad in AUTO. At beginning of TELEOP, B1 drives into KEY, drives back and forth in the KEY for 9.x seconds, and leaves KEY for 0.x seconds. This would be a 5MP FOUL since an "additional 5s" was not met.
B1 then goes right back into the KEY for another 9.x seconds. Repeat for 130 or so seconds. ~13 FOULS = 65MP to opponent while severely restricting their ability to score kPa, which are what earn the RP.

As it stands this is very legal, and something my team are considering a counter strategy against.
I would say that the following rule applies, but obviously FIRST's answer to your Q&A (And your event's HR) would have the final word.

T03. Egregious or repeated violations of any rule or procedure is prohibited.
Violation: The Head REFEREE may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning, or a RED CARD for DISQUALIFICATION in MATCH.

Monochron 16-01-2017 11:55
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Your question has been answered:
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/155

Most notably, no mention of taking Fouls for strategic purposes. In general I would expect as part of the rule "if repeated or strategic, tech foul" or something of the like. Typically repeatedly taking Fouls as part of your strategy isn't encouraged like this....

SenorZ 16-01-2017 12:02
Re: Key Violation G17
 
I never said "parking", that is just how they worded the rule.

Foul points do not earn kPa, correct? So an active defender can disrupt shooters anywhere and hurt their ability to score MP and kPa. And if they do it in the KEY, they don't risk much. 5MP foul = 15 high goal shots made, but without the kPa.

Yes, I realize most quals matches will be two of three robots trying to function, but higher performance teams will be asking their lower performing teams to play defense. And unlike past years, there is no protected zone for those defenders to mess up with.

Boltman 16-01-2017 12:15
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorZ (Post 1631883)
I never said "parking", that is just how they worded the rule.

Foul points do not earn kPa, correct? So an active defender can disrupt shooters anywhere and hurt their ability to score MP and kPa. And if they do it in the KEY, they don't risk much. 5MP foul = 15 high goal shots made, but without the kPa.

Yes, I realize most quals matches will be two of three robots trying to function, but higher performance teams will be asking their lower performing teams to play defense. And unlike past years, there is no protected zone for those defenders to mess up with.
There are three "protected zones" all bots should avoid:

In auto the opponents Launchpad area, in tele-op their "Retrival Zone" and end of game "Rope touch" is protected no touch zone. Boiler Key is a simple no parking more than 4.5sec zone if seen by a ref....a ref emphasis zone most likely.

Bryce2471 16-01-2017 12:35
Re: Key Violation G17
 
One thing to keep in mind is in the playoffs, the red alliance's third robot will have a good view of the boilers and a bad view of the feeder stations, and the blue alliance third bot will have the opposite.

BotDesigner 16-01-2017 13:15
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1631877)
Your question has been answered:
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/155
What! Referees are human!:yikes:

Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. I am sure most alliances would be perfectly happy to have a robot sit in the key collecting foul points for them while they place gears unopposed and shoot from further out in the launchpad.

Monochron 16-01-2017 15:27
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BotDesigner (Post 1631917)
What! Referees are human!:yikes:

Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. I am sure most alliances would be perfectly happy to have a robot sit in the key collecting foul points for them while they place gears unopposed and shoot from further out in the launchpad.
Avoid the issue doesn't stop the issue from existing.

bduddy 16-01-2017 16:12
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1631877)
Your question has been answered:
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/155

Most notably, no mention of taking Fouls for strategic purposes. In general I would expect as part of the rule "if repeated or strategic, tech foul" or something of the like. Typically repeatedly taking Fouls as part of your strategy isn't encouraged like this....
Any egregious foul(s) can be a yellow or red card.

Travis Hoffman 17-01-2017 05:03
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1631600)
Ah, yes, the old "Ref's judgement" Q&A answer.

Could be a key violation, could be a pin call, could be a C08, could be some other penalty... probably depend on the exact situation. Might be all of them--I've seen something like that crop up before.
Could be they never start counting to begin with. We know that NEVER happens, right? :)

KelleyCook 21-01-2017 13:21
Re: Key Violation G17
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorZ (Post 1631858)
Just for clarification, here is my Q&A question: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/155

As it stands this is very legal, and something my team are considering a counter strategy against.
Yes and here is your strategy against it: Design a shooter that is flexible enough that it isn't required for the robot to be within the key to score.

I have no problem with the rule or the answer.


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