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engunneer 17-01-2017 15:48

Team update 3
 
shows in the combined update link.
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...s-combined.pdf

major points:
SEWN added to rope definition. should end the velcro controversy once and for all.
Drawing corrections
the link to Q126 in thte notes should point here instead: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/126

edit: the single update 03 pdf is posted, but the main documents page still is linking to update 2.

Chris is me 17-01-2017 15:52

Re: Team update 3
 
Not too much here, mostly little changes.

Quote:

Ranking Score, the total number of Ranking Points earned by a Team throughout their Qualification MATCHES divided by the number of MATCHES they’ve been scheduled to play (minus any surrogate MATCH)
I always preferred when it was a sum and not an average. This makes it much harder to figure out how many ranking points you need to get in a match to jump up to a certain seed, in exchange for making seeding more accurate throughout the competition. Probably for the best, just an observation.

TJP123 17-01-2017 15:54

Re: Team update 3
 
Biggest update:

It looks like RP will now be avg RP per match, which just makes too much sense.

Zebra_Fact_Man 17-01-2017 15:56

Re: Team update 3
 
How would a gear ever find itself behind the alliance's wall??? All additional gears start by the loading station (on the opposite side of the field).

Jon Stratis 17-01-2017 15:59

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1632534)
How would a gear ever find itself behind the alliance's wall??? All additional gears start by the loading station (on the opposite side of the field).

If the human player moves a gear from the loading lane to the alliance station for the opposite alliance, it becomes the property of the other alliance. All that's separating these is a piece of tape, so that's not too hard of a scenario to imagine.

Poseidon5817 17-01-2017 15:59

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1632531)
Not too much here, mostly little changes.



I always preferred when it was a sum and not an average. This makes it much harder to figure out how many ranking points you need to get in a match to jump up to a certain seed, in exchange for making seeding more accurate throughout the competition. Probably for the best, just an observation.

It seems to me like the ranking board will show both ranking points and ranking score. Ranking score will be nice because it will show you your (real) rank.

Hitchhiker 42 17-01-2017 16:03

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1632534)
How would a gear ever find itself behind the alliance's wall??? All additional gears start by the loading station (on the opposite side of the field).

If it accidentally rolls out of the loading lane and into the alliance station.

AlexD744 17-01-2017 16:03

Re: Team update 3
 
Average Ranking Points! This would've saved 2 minutes of every list making meeting on friday nights of regionals. :]

Eric Scheuing 17-01-2017 16:05

Re: Team update 3
 
Is everybody overlooking the fact that you can rope material can be SEWN?!

Big-b 17-01-2017 16:19

Re: Team update 3
 
The advantage to having the RP be an average instead of a sum is that it makes it so teams don't jump up and down depending on how many matches they have, giving a better understanding of the ranking of teams during an event.

Jon Stratis 17-01-2017 16:47

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Scheuing (Post 1632542)
Is everybody overlooking the fact that you can rope material can be SEWN?!

Isn't sewing just a fancy form of weaving?

engunneer 17-01-2017 16:49

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1632571)
Isn't sewing just a fancy form of weaving?

they are technically different. you can make sewn things that look woven, but they are different. you could argue that one is a superset of the other.

Richard Wallace 17-01-2017 16:52

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1632571)
Isn't sewing just a fancy form of weaving?

I don't think so.

Weaving is a method of making fabric.

Sewing is a method of joining two pieces of fabric, by means of a cord (thread) that is not part of either.

efoote868 17-01-2017 17:09

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1632571)
Isn't sewing just a fancy form of weaving?

Or tying... or braiding... I'm wondering how much brainpower has been wasted on this. And how many better solutions could've been thought up had people not been stuck on velcro.

BotDesigner 17-01-2017 17:51

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1632585)
Or tying... or braiding... I'm wondering how much brainpower has been wasted on this. And how many better solutions could've been thought up had people not been stuck on velcro.

I think the climb would have been far more interesting of a challenge had we not been able to bring our own rope.

ollien 17-01-2017 20:35

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1632585)
Or tying... or braiding... I'm wondering how much brainpower has been wasted on this. And how many better solutions could've been thought up had people not been stuck on velcro.

Hah. Stuck on. :D

Cothron Theiss 17-01-2017 20:41

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BotDesigner (Post 1632605)
I think the climb would have been far more interesting of a challenge had we not been able to bring our own rope.

Had the GDC elected to provide a rope with a more reasonable diameter, I would be fine with everyone having to use the Field provided ropes. But as it stands, each of the Field ropes could hold the weight of every robot at the competition at once. I imagine we'll see quite a few bots fail to climb this year cause their winch doesn't have enough torque after their effective spool diameter goes from 1" to 4".

Richard Wallace 17-01-2017 22:09

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BotDesigner (Post 1632605)
I think the climb would have been far more interesting of a challenge had we not been able to bring our own rope.

Field reset would have also been more of a challenge.

Getting some robots to spit the field rope back out after they've half-choked themselves on it will be interesting, and time consuming.

Justin Montois 17-01-2017 23:54

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1632531)
Not too much here, mostly little changes.



I always preferred when it was a sum and not an average. This makes it much harder to figure out how many ranking points you need to get in a match to jump up to a certain seed, in exchange for making seeding more accurate throughout the competition. Probably for the best, just an observation.

Does that mean the best RS average is 4.0?

TDav540 17-01-2017 23:56

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1632766)
Does that mean the best RS average is 4.0?

Yep. But it's like a GPA. Just keeps going down :)

MrForbes 17-01-2017 23:59

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1632682)
I imagine we'll see quite a few bots fail to climb this year cause their winch doesn't have enough torque after their effective spool diameter goes from 1" to 4".

we're planning to start with a 4" effective diameter....and the field rope.

I wonder how it will work? I guess we'll see, when we get our field rope in the mail later this week (hopefully)

EricH 18-01-2017 00:55

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1632682)
HBut as it stands, each of the Field ropes could hold the weight of every robot at the competition at once.

But, can they do that after 5.75 weeks of competition, when a trip to Champs is on the line? How about 2 weeks later, when it's a trip to Einstein (or New Hampshire) on the line? As it stands, I'd think so. If they were smaller, I'd be wondering.

I suspect they're sized to maintain their strength through the entire season despite wear. The GDC probably figured that teams wouldn't like the field ropes and allowed teams to bring their own--but, if the team's rope fails, it's not a field fault. (If the field rope fails, then that's another story.)

Cory 18-01-2017 01:18

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1632785)

I suspect they're sized to maintain their strength through the entire season despite wear. The GDC probably figured that teams wouldn't like the field ropes and allowed teams to bring their own--but, if the team's rope fails, it's not a field fault. (If the field rope fails, then that's another story.)

I'd bet quite a bit that they were picked because they look old timey and fit the steampunk theme, not because of any of their physical attributes.

Taylor 18-01-2017 08:13

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1632766)
Does that mean the best RS average is 4.0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDav540 (Post 1632768)
Yep. But it's like a GPA. Just keeps going down :)

And I'm expecting several teams to be in the Square Root Club.

mypie4050 18-01-2017 09:17

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJP123 (Post 1632532)
Biggest update:

It looks like RP will now be avg RP per match, which just makes too much sense.

This wasn't actually a change to the game manual - It already stated that teams would be sorted by avg ranking points this year. The update clarified the non-influence of surrogate matches towards the RP avg.

JesseK 18-01-2017 09:19

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDav540 (Post 1632768)
Yep. But it's like a GPA. Just keeps going down :)

Unless you're in high school, where the point of AP classes is to pad a GPA with a max of 4.25, or some such nonsense.

Robomarfa 18-01-2017 09:33

Re: Team update 3
 
Forgive me for not reading between the ropes, how does "sewn" answer the question on velcro?

I think it is a silly discussion, because velcro is obviously not a rope, and I would never let my team take that questionable and easy route. Still, I'd like to know if teams are allowed to use velcro as that puts pure rope teams at a disadvantage.

It is a fun challenge just with a rope. Winch, capstan, grab and pull up, so many good options without velcro. I'd prefer all teams use the field rope, but I'd like more clarity on the use of velcro. We will probably BYOR.

Bruceb 18-01-2017 09:55

Re: Team update 3
 
Having read all the team updates and answers to question I believe the question about sewing velcro on a rope or strap has been completely answered.
You will see a plethora of teams bringing their own nylon strap "rope" with loop side velcro SEWN to it and they will pass inspection.

If you feel I am wrong please state why you do not believe the above statement to be true.

qscgy 18-01-2017 10:06

Re: Team update 3
 
If they wanted to settle the Velcro controversy, I would think that they would just say whether it's allowed or not. This just creates more questions, and it does seem like the point of the game is to use a rope, not a rope with Velcro on it.

Chris is me 18-01-2017 11:12

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qscgy (Post 1632875)
If they wanted to settle the Velcro controversy, I would think that they would just say whether it's allowed or not. This just creates more questions, and it does seem like the point of the game is to use a rope, not a rope with Velcro on it.

They have said in the Q&A that a rope made of Velcro isn't necessarily illegal. They don't want to say "Velcro is legal" because surely there are things sold as Velcro that don't meet the other rules for a legal rope, but they've specifically refused to say it is outright illegal, and said that there are possible configurations of Velcro ropes that are legal. So they're legal.

Doug Frisk 18-01-2017 12:15

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qscgy (Post 1632875)
If they wanted to settle the Velcro controversy, I would think that they would just say whether it's allowed or not. This just creates more questions, and it does seem like the point of the game is to use a rope, not a rope with Velcro on it.

I think they need to go Johnnie Cochran on this question.

"If the rope won't fray, the bot can't play!"

If what you present as rope can be frayed apart at the end by the inspector into individual strands or fibers it's a rope. If it's woven, you should be able to pick at the end and unweave it. If it's twisted, you should be able to untwist it. If sewn, you should be able to pull the sewn threads. If it's tied, you should be able to untie it.

Every single method of holding the rope together as defined in the rules can be frayed apart.

Robomarfa 18-01-2017 12:18

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1632916)
They don't want to say "Velcro is legal" because surely there are things sold as Velcro that don't meet the other rules for a legal rope,

Please kindly elaborate with examples of things you consider legal Velcro(R) and illegal Velcro(R) as this will help my understanding and interpretation of a vague rule.

Mike Schreiber 18-01-2017 12:50

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robomarfa (Post 1632860)
I think it is a silly discussion, because velcro is obviously not a rope, and I would never let my team take that questionable and easy route. Still, I'd like to know if teams are allowed to use velcro as that puts pure rope teams at a disadvantage.

Rope is defined in the manual pretty clearly now and a sew on Velcro strap is a rope according to the definition. I'm not sure where the idea of pure rope came from but if you feel the need to make the challenge harder for your students than for the teams they're competing against that is your choice.

Chris is me 18-01-2017 12:55

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robomarfa (Post 1632947)
Please kindly elaborate with examples of things you consider legal Velcro(R) and illegal Velcro(R) as this will help my understanding and interpretation of a vague rule.

An obvious example of an illegal Velcro rope would be a strip of Velcro more than an inch wide.

An obvious example of a legal Velcro rope would be a loop-side velcro strap where the loops are woven into the strap.

Lots of range in between. Merely "being Velcro" doesn't make a rope illegal - it has to follow all of the other rules though.

Cal578 18-01-2017 12:58

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robomarfa (Post 1632947)
Please kindly elaborate with examples of things you consider legal Velcro(R) and illegal Velcro(R) as this will help my understanding and interpretation of a vague rule.

Many Velcro and velcro-ish products come with a plastic backing. A flat strip of plastic is not a fiber, is not thread-like, and so (IMO) wouldn't pass inspection. If you're going to make your Rope out of anything velcro-ish, look carefully at all the materials in it.

Cothron Theiss 18-01-2017 12:59

Re: Team update 3
 
I personally wish they'd just left the Velcro can of worms closed, and made all Velcro illegal from the start. But they didn't, so now it's legal to use some forms of Velcro on a rope, and we can be sure that some teams will. But I'm not convinced it's the best solution. I imagine we'll see some great climbing teams that use Velcro, and I imagine we'll see even more that don't.

cadandcookies 18-01-2017 13:03

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1632967)
An obvious example of an illegal Velcro rope would be a strip of Velcro more than an inch wide.

An obvious example of a legal Velcro rope would be a loop-side velcro strap where the loops are woven into the strap.

Lots of range in between. Merely "being Velcro" doesn't make a rope illegal - it has to follow all of the other rules though.

Besides, if they say "Velcro is legal" then what about hook-and-loop? ::rtm::

I'm really quite excited to see what teams come up with with the doors blasted wide open on the rope rules. There are a lot of valid directions to go, some of them involving Velcro/HAL, some not.

engunneer 18-01-2017 13:23

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1632972)
I personally wish they'd just left the Velcro can of worms closed, and made all Velcro illegal from the start. But they didn't, so now it's legal to use some forms of Velcro on a rope, and we can be sure that some teams will. But I'm not convinced it's the best solution. I imagine we'll see some great climbing teams that use Velcro, and I imagine we'll see even more that don't.

I just don't see how they could have outlawed it even with the kickoff rules. as long as the material was constructed properly (no adhesive, etc.), then it would have been legal. I don't think anything has actually changed here, just been clarified (SEWN is clearer, and might be the only change)

TJP123 18-01-2017 14:42

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mypie4050 (Post 1632847)
This wasn't actually a change to the game manual - It already stated that teams would be sorted by avg ranking points this year. The update clarified the non-influence of surrogate matches towards the RP avg.

Ah. Good catch.

bobbysq 18-01-2017 14:51

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1633000)
I just don't see how they could have outlawed it even with the kickoff rules. as long as the material was constructed properly (no adhesive, etc.), then it would have been legal. I don't think anything has actually changed here, just been clarified (SEWN is clearer, and might be the only change)

They could have put in the game manual "No hook and loop material is allowed", although that would seemingly exclude mechanisms using a loop on their rope and a hook on their robot to grab it. I'm guessing if they wanted it banned, they would have done it already since there's no way a test team didn't think of it.

efoote868 18-01-2017 14:53

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1633000)
SEWN is clearer, and might be the only change

That makes it so teams don't have to argue the semantics of how their "rope" came to be.

If the GDC wanted to avoid all the rope drama, they would've supplied a standard chain and provided a part number of it.

Nuttyman54 18-01-2017 17:25

Re: Team update 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbysq (Post 1633069)
They could have put in the game manual "No hook and loop material is allowed", although that would seemingly exclude mechanisms using a loop on their rope and a hook on their robot to grab it. I'm guessing if they wanted it banned, they would have done it already since there's no way a test team didn't think of it.

FIRST is learning from the past.

There are enough fuzzy-ish, non-"velcro" or "hook-and-loop" type materials out there that it would have created another arms race like Can Grabbers or MiniBots. Velcro-style rope climbers are one of the easiest and simplest solutions, and the top teams would dedicate lots of resources to finding the right legal alternative. FIRST had the choice of going down the rabbit hole of trying to regulate what is and isn't velcro for the purposes of being a ROPE, or they could make velcro-style ropes legal, let all teams take the easier route and end up with more robots climbing which is good for everyone.

As mentioned above, they don't want to put in the manual "Velcro is legal" because that opens up the door to conflict with the other rope rules (bumper rules are notorious for being hard to dissect because certain separate rules together imply a requirement, and all must be simultaneously met).

For those of you who are complaining that it's not really rope climbing anymore. We are not tasked with climbing a "rope". We are tasked with climbing a ROPE as defined in the manual. The game challenge is an engineering challenge, with specifications. We're being told what ROPE is.


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