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-   -   Poll: Drivetrain this year (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153847)

pmattin5459 17-01-2017 22:19

Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
What's your drivetrain going to be this year?

Ginger Power 17-01-2017 22:36

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I put Nonadrive, even though technically it'll be a Decadrive. I'm happy to see that most teams are going with a tank drive.

scott.smith 17-01-2017 22:38

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Surprisingly team 639 will not be going for treads this year, as that is our signature drive train. We will be doing a 6-wheel west coast drive.

Type 17-01-2017 23:41

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
My team developed a West coast Drive platform over the summer so we decided to try it for once since up until last year, I believe my team has used almost all mecanum. I wish we would have developed a swerve drive because I have a feeling one of the winning robots at Worlds this year will have a swerve drive.

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 00:30

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Yeah, it's good to see that there are a lot of tank drives here. You really need to know what you're doing to make any other drivetrain, and do it well enough that you avoid the negatives associated with it. For example, mecanum is really easy to slap on any robot, but you need to have a lot of practice, some decent custom programming to keep the strafing straight, and the right gearing so that you aren't knocked around by all of the basic pushbots.

Poseidon5817 18-01-2017 01:17

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
The results of this poll are terrifying.






















Am I Karthik now?

Zebra_Fact_Man 18-01-2017 01:29

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1632775)
Yeah, it's good to see that there are a lot of tank drives here. You really need to know what you're doing to make any other drivetrain, and do it well enough that you avoid the negatives associated with it. For example, mecanum is really easy to slap on any robot, but you need to have a lot of practice, some decent custom programming to keep the strafing straight, and the right gearing so that you aren't knocked around by all of the basic pushbots.

I don't think all the gearing in the world is going to help a mecanum robot against a traction-wheeled robot.

Ari423 18-01-2017 08:14

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1632788)
The results of this poll are terrifying.






















Am I Karthik now?

I think Karthik would be more terrified if the poll results were going the other way and all teams were doing mecanum.

edong4273 18-01-2017 13:08

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1632792)
I don't think all the gearing in the world is going to help a mecanum robot against a traction-wheeled robot.

Agreed

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 13:34

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
At least a lot of driving practice will help you avoid such situations. And you might win against standard AM pushbots, probably not against anything like the Vex WCD or a custom solution.

AdamHeard 18-01-2017 13:39

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1632788)
Am I Karthik now?

Nope.

What's terrifying about so many teams doing tank?

RoboChair 18-01-2017 13:47

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1633017)
Nope.

What's terrifying about so many teams doing tank?

the number of teams doing mecanum

Nathan Streeter 18-01-2017 13:52

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1632788)
The results of this poll are terrifying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1633017)
Nope.

What's terrifying about so many teams doing tank?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1633021)
the number of teams doing mecanum

The 7.5% of teams doing swerve, perhaps? Mecanum certainly has flaws, but its failure modes are generally more benign than a swerve's.

Personally, I'm not concerned by any results of this poll... looks reasonably good. ~70% tank, ~30% omni-directional, with a good mixture of types to fit various teams' resources, strategies, and preferences.

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 13:55

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1633021)
the number of teams doing mecanum

Yeah, that is a major problem with the amount of robot on robot interactions in close quarters this year. Can't wait to see mecanum bots pushed around everywhere thus year.

Cothron Theiss 18-01-2017 16:20

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I think the biggest thing this poll indicates is how different CD is from the entire FRC community. I say that because, at the time of my posting, there are 16 teams doing swerve and 17 doing mecanum. I guarantee you that the average competition won't have an equal number of mecanum and swerve drives.

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 16:32

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Swerve isn't a bad drivetrain to go with, mainly because you really need to know what you're doing to implement it. Definitely not as worrying as the number of mecanum teams.

Poseidon5817 18-01-2017 16:43

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1633127)
Swerve isn't a bad drivetrain to go with, mainly because you really need to know what you're doing to implement it. Definitely not as worrying as the number of mecanum teams.

The fact that you really need to know what you're doing to implement swerve does not seem like a reason that it is a good choice.

JohnFogarty 18-01-2017 16:46

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
The disappointing thing is I tried to convince the team I'm working with that Mechanum would probably be a bad idea. However they didn't seem to reach my conclusion. They have 3 years of FRC mechanum experience that wasn't necessarily bad and 3x that experience using mechanum in Vex. So maybe it won't go over that badly...maybe...















save me...

Ginger Power 18-01-2017 17:00

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1633135)

save me...

Ok








*mecanum

AdamHeard 18-01-2017 17:04

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1633135)
The disappointing thing is I tried to convince the team I'm working with that Mechanum would probably be a bad idea. However they didn't seem to reach my conclusion. They have 3 years of FRC mechanum experience that wasn't necessarily bad and 3x that experience using mechanum in Vex. So maybe it won't go over that badly...maybe...

save me...

Look on the bright side... You'll have great seats for elims!

euhlmann 18-01-2017 17:10

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1633135)
The disappointing thing is I tried to convince the team I'm working with that Mechanum would probably be a bad idea. However they didn't seem to reach my conclusion. They have 3 years of FRC mechanum experience that wasn't necessarily bad and 3x that experience using mechanum in Vex. So maybe it won't go over that badly...maybe...

save me...

This is worth reposting: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...09&postcount=2 :rolleyes:

JohnFogarty 18-01-2017 17:52

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1633142)
Look on the bright side... You'll have great seats for elims!

Considering our single week 1 regional event, and our historical minimum of making elims...I don't even think I'll get good seats.

Ari423 18-01-2017 18:56

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by euhlmann (Post 1633148)
This is worth reposting: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...09&postcount=2 :rolleyes:

Also this, courtesy of user Mecanum Wheel.

Siri 18-01-2017 21:11

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss (Post 1633125)
I think the biggest thing this poll indicates is how different CD is from the entire FRC community. I say that because, at the time of my posting, there are 16 teams doing swerve and 17 doing mecanum. I guarantee you that the average competition won't have an equal number of mecanum and swerve drives.

CD is certainly wildly disproportionate, but I sincerely doubt that that over 17+16 (now 27+18) teams who voted in this poll are doing mecanum / serve. Rather, it's that many voters who are. Remember as you interpret these results* that not only is CD disproportionately populated with novel drivetrain teams, it's also disproportionately populated by people from those teams.


*Shortcut to properly interpreting CD polls: don't.

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 21:19

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Still, now we have 10%ish of teams going mecanum. That is worrying.

Ari423 18-01-2017 21:30

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1633245)
Still, now we have 10%ish of teams going mecanum. That is worrying.

Keep in mind, that's 10% of ~275 teams answering a CD poll. That leaves about 2000 teams who haven't answered (and that assumes that each team only answered once, which is probably not the case). I expect that most of the teams who do not have a CD presence actively answering polls like this will be using either a kit chassis or a WCD variant.

Remember folks, CD is not a representative sample of the FIRST community.

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 21:32

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1633250)
Keep in mind, that's 10% of ~275 teams answering a CD poll. That leaves about 2000 teams who haven't answered (and that assumes that each team only answered once, which is probably not the case). I expect that most of the teams who do not have a CD presence actively answering polls like this will be using either a kit chassis or a WCD variant.

Remember folks, CD is not a representative sample of the FIRST community.

This is true. However, I don't understand using mecanum in this game at all. The only reason the designers made the field unsymmetrical was to encourage robot on robot contact.

niklas674 18-01-2017 21:40

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I have an Einstein worthy idea... Swerve drive that uses mecanums. On top of that you should use mecanums as a flywheel. 100 percent guaranteed to win.

Hitchhiker 42 18-01-2017 21:41

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1633257)
I have an Einstein worthy idea... Swerve drive that uses mecanums. On top of that you should use mecanums as a flywheel. 100 percent guaranteed to win.

Hmm... if you used two mecanums side by side pointing inwards as a flywheel. Would that work? :P

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 21:41

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1633257)
I have an Einstein worthy idea... Swerve drive that uses mecanums. On top of that you should use mecanums as a flywheel. 100 percent guaranteed to win.

You can use tiny mecanums instead of rollers on the mecanums!

pmattin5459 18-01-2017 21:42

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1633259)
Hmm... if you used two mecanums side by side pointing inwards as a flywheel. Would that work? :P

Probably, yeah. Not sure why you would want to.

Hitchhiker 42 18-01-2017 21:42

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1633260)
You can use tiny mecanums instead of rollers on the mecanums!

What about a mecanum drive with mini swerve modules instead of rollers?

Hitchhiker 42 18-01-2017 21:43

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1632788)
The results of this poll are terrifying.

How about:

The results of this poll aren't terrifying.

Bkeeneykid 18-01-2017 22:05

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1633265)
How about:

The results of this poll aren't terrifying.

The results of this poll are only terrifying if you're using not tank. If you're using tank, carry on and push everyone else around.

He says as he designs a mecanum drive.

niklas674 18-01-2017 22:10

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Mecanum will be great they said. Make your robot better they said.

Michael Hill 18-01-2017 22:19

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by niklas674 (Post 1633282)
Mecanum will be great they said. Make your robot better they said.

Said no one ever*

Poseidon5817 18-01-2017 23:44

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1633278)
The results of this poll are only terrifying if you're using not tank. If you're using tank, carry on and push everyone else around.

He says as he designs a mecanum drive.

The results terrify me because so many teams are doing swerve, which means many teams are not going to be able to successfully engineer a good swerve, which means many teams will be burning holes in the carpet.

pmattin5459 19-01-2017 00:19

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 (Post 1633322)
The results terrify me because so many teams are doing swerve, which means many teams are not going to be able to successfully engineer a good swerve, which means many teams will be burning holes in the carpet.

I dunno, most of the teams who do swerve don't design one during build season, right? If they're doing it, they probably have at least some experience.

Zebra_Fact_Man 19-01-2017 02:02

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1633333)
I dunno, most of the teams who do swerve don't design one during build season, right? If they're doing it, they probably have at least some experience.

ostensibly

GeeTwo 19-01-2017 07:57

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
We were going to do omnis on a swerve drive, but backed down a notch. We're going to mount those omnis on a twitch drive. In addition to strafe capabilities, when driving forward we can rotate the twitch to achieve what is effectively a CVT (continuously variable transmission).






Seriously, we're doing 2/3 of a kit chassis, geared a bit faster. Driver practice should get the cycle time down farther than tweaking the drive train.

angelah 19-01-2017 08:34

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Tank.

We had built a mecanum and a tank in the off-season a few times to give the younger folks on the controls and programming teams some more practice. Our half practice field was done a few days ago, so we fired each of them up and had a new student driver try them out. There was little difference in his ability to maneuver around the field (including other robots) and line up to the spring, hopper, and loading stations with tank versus mecanum after a few minutes practice with each. Our graduated driver with mecanum and tank experience tried also and agreed.

We would prefer a swerve, but we aren't there yet, so it's not a consideration.

Skyehawk 19-01-2017 11:51

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1633372)
Seriously, we're doing 2/3 of a kit chassis, geared a bit faster. Driver practice should get the cycle time down farther than tweaking the drive train.

Driver practice is probably the biggest contributing factor provided the robot is functional.

Taylor 19-01-2017 11:54

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1633135)
The disappointing thing is I tried to convince the team I'm working with that Mechanum would probably be a bad idea. However they didn't seem to reach my conclusion. They have 3 years of FRC mechanum experience that wasn't necessarily bad and 3x that experience using mechanum in Vex. So maybe it won't go over that badly...maybe...















save me...

Were you able to conduct those tests over the weekend?
(Reference)

Also: Yes, mecanums are horrendously underpowered and virtually uncontrollable when defended in any way.

Ginger Power 19-01-2017 12:19

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I don't think it's fair to cite the best mecanum team in the world as proof that mecanums are good for everybody. I wouldn't cite 16, or 1640 as proof that swerves are good for everybody.

Although they are the perfect team to cite when discussing the potential that mecanum drives have. That potential can't be unlocked in a single season however.

The reason 2052 is so good at mecanum is black magic*. They do things with mecanum drivetrains that I think only they're capable of. Also, 2013 was more conducive to a mecanum drive because you could set picks for yourself by driving under the pyramid. This year, you're forced to push through defense, or go all the way around the Airship.

*and endless tweaks, refinements and improvements throughout the years, tons of drive practice, and great driving tactics/strategy.

Taylor 19-01-2017 12:36

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I completely don't understand that line of reasoning, Ryan. We should discount this example because it was performed by a team that was good at it? Also, the claim was never made that any drive train is "good for everybody".

For the record, once again, I am neutral on the mecanum drive discussion. For some circumstances, it is a decent choice; for others, it is not. Sometimes a claw hammer is really nice; other times it's completely inappropriate.

What I am against is the folks who disparage mecanum drive on the face of it being mecanum drive. Save that hatred for scissorlifts.

Ginger Power 19-01-2017 12:44

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1633497)
I completely don't understand that line of reasoning, Ryan. We should discount this example because it was performed by a team that was good at it? Also, the claim was never made that any drive train is "good for everybody".

For the record, once again, I am neutral on the mecanum drive discussion. For some circumstances, it is a decent choice; for others, it is not. Sometimes a claw hammer is really nice; other times it's completely inappropriate.

What I am against is the folks who disparage mecanum drive on the face of it being mecanum drive. Save that hatred for scissorlifts.

I totally agree with you, scissorlifts are awful :D

I definitely just misread your post! My bad, you weren't saying that mecanum is good for everybody... not sure how I read it that way the first time!

mrnoble 19-01-2017 12:58

Re: Poll: Drivetrain this year
 
I don't have a video link yet, but 2996 in 2014 used mecanum to good effect, and were first pick for the second alliance in Utah, which went on to win the event. We practiced with them quite a bit, and were very impressed. When it was all over, I remember talking to drivers and mentors, and hearing them say that, even with their win, they wished that they hadn't done mecanum.

I guess my point is that throwing shade at mecanum (or other drive types) is overgeneralizing. An effective bot can be made many ways. Still, it's usually (maybe almost always) a better idea to give tank a shot before dismissing it for a flashier omnidirectional drive style.


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