Chief Delphi - Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

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- - Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153921)

engunneer

19-01-2017 15:44

Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/207

we also noticed this, but the Q&A makes it official. Make sure your pilot is careful with lift handles, as if they fall out of the airship, you can't get them back!

Chris is me

19-01-2017 15:47

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

I hope this isn't as easy to do as it looks, because if it is, this is going to be a disaster. It would be neat if there was a little clip-on thing you could attach the end of that handle to in order to prevent this.

Jon K.

19-01-2017 18:17

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1633601)

From my experience at the NH kickoff, it is as easy as it looks. Teams will have to be very careful about this. I do wonder if it wouldn't make sense to have a retracting lanyard of some sort attached to the airship and the handle. I wonder if FIRST will look into ways of preventing this.

Ari423

19-01-2017 19:11

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon K. (Post 1633645)

Not sure how well that idea would work with H12

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2017 Game Manual H12

You can’t bring/use anything you want. The only equipment that may be brought to the ARENA and used by DRIVE TEAMS during a MATCH is listed below. Regardless if equipment fits criteria below, it may not be employed in a way that breaks any other rules, blocks visibility for FIELD STAFF or audience members, or jams or interferes with the remote sensing capabilities of another Team, including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infrared proximity detectors, etc. (e.g. including imagery that, to a reasonably astute observer, mimics the Vision Guides).
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. BANNERS and devices, if needed, to assist placement in the BANNER Holder,
C. non-powered signaling devices,
D. reasonable decorative items,
E. special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability
F. devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy provided they meet all of the following conditions:...
G. non-powered Personal Protective Equipment (examples include, but aren’t limited to, gloves, eye protection, and hearing protection)

Kevin Sevcik

19-01-2017 19:37

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

So best guess, what percentage of elimination matches are going to be decided by someone fumbling or accidentally kicking a lift handle? How many matches are we going to see where an alliance has zero operational lifts?

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the thought that Einstein could be decided by this. I can't recall any recent year where a human player could effectively break such an important part of the field. What if field reset botches something and a match starts with a handle outside the port hole? There's no guarantee anywhere in the rules that they'll start inside the airship.

Billfred

19-01-2017 19:39

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1633670)

Not sure how well that idea would work with H12

Sounds like Jon was envisioning an alteration to the field, rather than a team-provided thing.

(full disclosure: Jon and I are coworkers and he totally helped me crimp some battery cables today but we haven't discussed this topic offline)

ctt956

19-01-2017 20:24

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1633692)

What if field reset botches something and a match starts with a handle outside the port hole? There's no guarantee anywhere in the rules that they'll start inside the airship.

Most likely an ARENA fault, judging by 10.8:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Game Manual Section 10.8 MATCH Replays

Over the course of the Tournament, ARENA FAULTS may occur. An ARENA FAULT is an error in ARENA operation that includes, but is not limited to:
A. broken FIELD elements
B. power failure to a portion of the FIELD (tripping the circuit breaker in the PLAYER STATION is not considered a power failure)
C. improper activation by the FMS
D. errors by FIELD STAFF
E. a Team BANNER falling into the FIELD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1633695)

Sounds like Jon was envisioning an alteration to the field, rather than a team-provided thing.

That's the impression I got.

Jon K.

19-01-2017 20:36

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1633670)

Not sure how well that idea would work with H12

I had indeed meant an alteration to the field.

ChrisH

20-01-2017 14:47

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

It is not a bug, it is a feature. Deal with it

Chris is me

20-01-2017 15:12

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon K. (Post 1633645)

So glad to be competing in Week 1, where this game-breaking bug will be discovered for the first time, and FRC will inevitably do some quick-fix for week 2 and onward!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisH (Post 1634056)

It is not a bug, it is a feature. Deal with it

Ugh. Why bother pointing out any kind of potential problem; "it's just part of the game" no matter how unplayable it makes the experience.

It would be one thing if your team was always in control of at least one lift handle, but they're not - two pilots, three handles. No matter how many times you say "be careful", if this is as easy as it looks (as it apparently is), your alliance partners may randomly deactivate a goal without an obvious visual indicator that it's happened. If your Pilot isn't in the airship, there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Do you really think the game is better off, and FRC is better off, by not attempting to fix this? What's the value added of this "feature" to teams, alliances, and the event as a whole?

AdamHeard

20-01-2017 15:17

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisH (Post 1634056)

It is not a bug, it is a feature. Deal with it

It's an awful feature.

EricLeifermann

20-01-2017 16:03

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1634075)

It's an awful feature.

Especially when a student goes to kick a ball out the port hole and kicks the handle too.

D.Allred

20-01-2017 16:29

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1634112)

Especially when a student goes to kick a ball out the port hole and kicks the handle too.

Think you meant to say "gently return the ball to the field..."

EricLeifermann

20-01-2017 18:30

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Allred (Post 1634120)

Think you meant to say "gently return the ball to the field..."

Gently with their feet...

Kevin Sevcik

20-01-2017 20:22

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

I seem to recall a lot of game breaking features getting fixed shortly after week 1. 2012 basketballs jamming the ramps, 2015 low bar curtains getting shredded, 2013 hail of last minute frisbees. And most times fixing these things after week 1 makes people REALLY mad. Both the ones that had to live with it week 1, and the ones that have to deal with the changes after build season is over.

So I'm a little incredulous that the GDC actually has had this pointed out to them and might not actually fix it now, when it's least likely to bother anyone.

GaryVoshol

21-01-2017 07:57

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

What would happen if at every Week 0 preview event, PILOTS accidentally but consistently drop the handle outside the AIRSHIP rendering the LIFTS unusable? Maybe the change would be made before Week 1 official events? (I believe the Frisbee Flurry was disallowed based on Week 0 throwing skills, or rather lack thereof.)

Chris is me

21-01-2017 10:54

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1634343)

Please, everyone going to Week 0 events - particularly the one in NH - don't try too hard to avoid this. It might be the only way this might get "fixed", and even if it doesn't, there might be a blog post about it or something so more teams can learn about this issue.

Kevin Sevcik

21-01-2017 11:10

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

I'm guessing the first several instances of this happening at an event that matters will occasion extremely heated discussions with the head ref about the yellow card and what they're supposed to do when this happens if they can't retrieve the handle:
"So we can't grab the handle or we get a red card and lose. But if we don't grab the handle we can't use the easy middle lift and we lose. So we've lost the match if we drop a stupid handle?"

GaryVoshol

21-01-2017 13:34

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1634369)

Please note I am in no way advocating that PILOTS drop the handle on purpose. I'm only asking what would happen if it occurs a lot in Week 0.

dmaggio744

21-01-2017 16:27

Re: Q&A 207 - PILOTS dropping LIFT handles

After looking at some of pictures in the manual, the cables attached to the handle seem awfully long... perhaps hanging the handle over the top of the airship wall leaving the cable inside and accessible would be a good strategy?

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