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-   -   2017 Team Update 4 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153972)

Hallry 20-01-2017 14:23

2017 Team Update 4
 
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate04.pdf

Major updates:
  • Details regarding Early Pit Setup
  • Added images depicting the Davit position when the Touchpad is unactuated and fully actuated
  • Ranking Score will be truncated to 2 decimal places.
  • For Playoffs, Alliance Captain is assigned Player Station 2, with the first pick now being assigned the Player Station closest to the Boiler and the second pick now being assigned the Player station closest to the opponent's Loading Station.
  • Added District Chairman's, Dean's List, Engineering Inspiration, and Rookie All-Star Award allocations.

rcoren22 20-01-2017 14:26

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Thanks Ryan!

JesseK 20-01-2017 14:26

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

ALLIANCE Leads are assigned to PLAYER STATION 2, the first picks are assigned to the PLAYER STATIONS closer to the BOILER, and second picks are assigned to the PLAYER STATIONS closer to the opponent’s LOADING STATION.
Woo!

GuyM142 20-01-2017 14:30

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

ALLIANCE Leads are assigned to PLAYER STATION 2, the first picks are assigned to the PLAYER STATIONS 1 closer to the BOILER, and second picks are assigned to the PLAYER STATIONS 3 closer to the opponent’s LOADING STATION.
2nd picks are going to have a hard time trying to defend the opponents boiler, the drivers won't see anything from their station!
Also, 1st pick won't be able to see the loading station well.

StAxis 20-01-2017 14:33

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
The fact that there's a steel piece that extends past the touch plate so you can't actually use your climber to touch the plate would have been good information to have a week ago. Glad we know now but how many teams will find themselves up and not climbed?

Eric Scheuing 20-01-2017 14:45

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1634049)
The fact that there's a steel piece that extends past the touch plate so you can't actually use your climber to touch the plate would have been good information to have a week ago. Glad we know now but how many teams will find themselves up and not climbed?

Try to find a way to surround your climber with >0.5" foam to depress the touchpad.

Rat_nanny 20-01-2017 14:47

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1634049)
The fact that there's a steel piece that extends past the touch plate so you can't actually use your climber to touch the plate would have been good information to have a week ago. Glad we know now but how many teams will find themselves up and not climbed?

This has been a discussion for the past week. It's why I am glad I follow this and a few other forums.

GeeTwo 20-01-2017 14:47

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1634049)
The fact that there's a steel piece that extends past the touch plate so you can't actually use your climber to touch the plate would have been good information to have a week ago. Glad we know now but how many teams will find themselves up and not climbed?

On the other hand, this setup will likely reduce the number of mangled touchpads, and makes it easier to apply a 3-5 pound force to the touchpad while you're pulling on the rope with 100+ pounds of force.

But yes, it's going to be rough for teams whose winch or chock is right at the top of their allowable volume.

Hitchhiker 42 20-01-2017 15:04

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1634054)
On the other hand, this setup will likely reduce the number of mangled touchpads, and makes it easier to apply a 3-5 pound force to the touchpad while you're pulling on the rope with 100+ pounds of force.

But yes, it's going to be rough for teams whose winch or chock is right at the top of their allowable volume.

But... 3.25" of bumpers stick out of the winch basically* no matter what. I don't think this was a large problem to start with.

*Assuming you don't actuate your winch out over the bumper and also the winch is situated a tad higher than your bumpers.

Hallry 20-01-2017 15:15

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1634067)
But... 3.25" of bumpers stick out of the winch basically* no matter what. I don't think this was a large problem to start with.

*Assuming you don't actuate your winch out over the bumper and also the winch is situated a tad higher than your bumpers.

**Assuming that you need to articulate your robot 90 degrees to climb.

Hitchhiker 42 20-01-2017 15:18

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1634072)
**Assuming that you need to articulate your robot 90 degrees to climb.

Only if the vertical line through the robot's COG and winch also passes through the bumper. In which case, the simple solution is to make a cut in the bumpers.

Chris is me 20-01-2017 15:19

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StAxis (Post 1634049)
The fact that there's a steel piece that extends past the touch plate so you can't actually use your climber to touch the plate would have been good information to have a week ago. Glad we know now but how many teams will find themselves up and not climbed?

This was an issue since Day 1; I'm glad as soon as FIRST realized how this impacts designs (and how it wasn't in the team drawings...) that they added visibility to the issue in the manual in order to help teams. Should have been sooner, but I'm glad it's happened

---

As for playoff player station assignments, this system seems okay. I do wish you were allowed to choose which player station you could go to, but I understand why that isn't done, and as long as that isn't a thing, this is the best we've got.

Hallry 20-01-2017 15:20

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1634077)
Only if the vertical line through the robot's COG and winch also passes through the bumper. In which case, the simple solution is to make a cut in the bumpers.

I envision that there are many teams out there whose bumpers won't come into play during climbing at all.

cgmv123 20-01-2017 15:20

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1634077)
In which case, the simple solution is to make a cut in the bumpers.

Which isn't allowed.

Chris is me 20-01-2017 15:21

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1634081)
Which isn't allowed.

You're totally allowed to have gaps in the bumpers this year. This is how I imagine the vast majority of teams will be acquiring game pieces from the floor this year.

Rangel 20-01-2017 15:23

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
I'm happy they at least made both alliances even in terms of player stations, but I hoped they would switch the picks around or just let the alliance pick what stations they want. Better than nothing I suppose.

Brian Maher 20-01-2017 15:30

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
I am very happy to see the change with player station assignment. That was the one aspect of this year's game that I was particularly upset with. I agree with Chris: while selecting our own stations would be ideal, this is the next best thing. Thank you, FIRST, for listening to the community's concerns.

Does anyone know what the "FIRST Championship Normalized Slots" refers to in Table 10-11 (the district award allocations)? The Houston-feeding districts have them and they're around one-fifth less than the "FIRST Championship slots".

waialua359 20-01-2017 15:40

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
I just dont get it. Why cant teams choose which stations they want to be in?
Is it a matter of convenience for Field control to input them way in advance?
How about doing something for once that makes it convenient for teams.
Other events/games in the past during eliminations have allowed teams to choose. Its not like those events were at such an inconvenience to the volunteers.

EricLeifermann 20-01-2017 15:46

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1634095)
I just dont get it. Why cant teams choose which stations they want to be in?
Is it a matter of convenience for Field control to input them way in advance?
How about doing something for once that makes it convenient for teams.
Other events/games in the past during eliminations have allowed teams to choose. Its not like those events were at such an inconvenience to the volunteers.

They had to know a match in advance what defenses and locations this last year, why can't they do the same thing with driver station location?

GaryVoshol 20-01-2017 16:49

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Is it just me, or are the Min and Max headers reversed in Table 10-11?

GeeTwo 20-01-2017 17:10

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1634054)
..it's going to be rough for teams whose winch or chock is right at the top of their allowable volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1634067)
But... 3.25" of bumpers stick out of the winch basically* no matter what. I don't think this was a large problem to start with.

*Assuming you don't actuate your winch out over the bumper and also the winch is situated a tad higher than your bumpers.

As I read the rules, the bumpers weren't allowed to be within 17" of the top of your allowable volume (or 29" if you elect the tall configuration). But yes, this would also apply to the other boundaries of the volume.

Winch near the bumpers...oh, yes, we did consider the "antichrist option" early in design, but decided to make our lift in a relatively upright orientation to simplify removal of our ROPE from the DAVIT. Fortunately the fingers on the DAVIT are within reach of some members of our team.

rich2202 20-01-2017 17:43

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1634099)
They had to know a match in advance what defenses and locations this last year, why can't they do the same thing with driver station location?

Defenses was merely displaying what was in a particular slot.

FMS is designed to expect a team in a certain location. At a minimum, the ethernet port is programmed for that team number.

I can appreciate that it would be "nice" to let a team pick their spot. I'm guessing to minimize problems, they keep positions hard coded.

FWIW: I don't think there is a requirement that the driver stay in their team's position. If you bring a long enough ethernet cord, you can be in whatever position the teams agree.

Kpchem 20-01-2017 18:02

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1634167)
FWIW: I don't think there is a requirement that the driver stay in their team's position. If you bring a long enough ethernet cord, you can be in whatever position the teams agree.

C12 prevents teams from doing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2017 Manual Section 6
C12. Plug in to/be in your PLAYER STATION. The OPERATOR CONSOLE must be used in the PLAYER STATION to which the Team is assigned, as indicated on the Team sign.

The blue box below goes on to explain that the intent is to prevent long tethers that could become tripping hazards, and "if an operator is located more than approximately 1⁄2 PLAYER STATION width away from their own PLAYER STATION, that would be considered a violation of C12."

EricLeifermann 20-01-2017 18:28

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1634167)
Defenses was merely displaying what was in a particular slot.

FMS is designed to expect a team in a certain location. At a minimum, the ethernet port is programmed for that team number.

I can appreciate that it would be "nice" to let a team pick their spot. I'm guessing to minimize problems, they keep positions hard coded.

FWIW: I don't think there is a requirement that the driver stay in their team's position. If you bring a long enough ethernet cord, you can be in whatever position the teams agree.

I'm not saying that you should be able to pick for all of quals, but elims there is plenty of time to be able to pick where you want to go. They did it in 2015 why can't they do it now?

jgerstein 20-01-2017 18:32

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1634091)
Does anyone know what the "FIRST Championship Normalized Slots" refers to in Table 10-11 (the district award allocations)? The Houston-feeding districts have them and they're around one-fifth less than the "FIRST Championship slots".

The "Championship Normalized Slots" are how many slots those district would be allotted if they were feeding into St. Louis rather than Houston. According to the explanation below Table 10-11, they are basing award ratios on the normalized slots rather than the actual slots to avoid skewing award ratios.

Hallry 20-01-2017 21:02

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1634079)
As for playoff player station assignments, this system seems okay. I do wish you were allowed to choose which player station you could go to, but I understand why that isn't done, and as long as that isn't a thing, this is the best we've got.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel (Post 1634083)
I'm happy they at least made both alliances even in terms of player stations, but I hoped they would switch the picks around or just let the alliance pick what stations they want. Better than nothing I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1634095)
I just dont get it. Why cant teams choose which stations they want to be in?
Is it a matter of convenience for Field control to input them way in advance?
How about doing something for once that makes it convenient for teams.
Other events/games in the past during eliminations have allowed teams to choose. Its not like those events were at such an inconvenience to the volunteers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1634099)
They had to know a match in advance what defenses and locations this last year, why can't they do the same thing with driver station location?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1634180)
I'm not saying that you should be able to pick for all of quals, but elims there is plenty of time to be able to pick where you want to go. They did it in 2015 why can't they do it now?

For what it's worth, Alliances are still able to select their own Player Stations (and obviously, which 3 of the 4 robots are playing) at the FIRST Championship as per Section 10.11.1.

tickspe15 20-01-2017 21:12

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1634234)
For what it's worth, Alliances are still able to select their own Player Stations (and obviously, which 3 of the 4 robots are playing) at the FIRST Championships as per Section 10.11.1.

Fixed ;)

MasterMentor 22-01-2017 15:58

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1634180)
I'm not saying that you should be able to pick for all of quals, but elims there is plenty of time to be able to pick where you want to go. They did it in 2015 why can't they do it now?

Actually, no, they didn't do that in 2015. They have NEVER* allowed teams to choose what player stations they wanted to be in (my memory only goes back as far as 2009, which I think was the first year of the non-IFI control system genesis - it may be possible they allowed it prior to 2009, but that was a different system right?). I believe 2015 was the first game where a rule similar to C12 was introduced, because teams wanted to "migrate" to other player stations (I know mine did for sure!).

* - The only time teams have ever been able to choose what player station they are in is during FIRST Championships. However, never during normal Regional, District, nor District Championship tournaments. I asked one of the Championship Scorekeepers once why they didn't allow station selection except at Championships, and they said it was because of the 4-team alliances or something to that effect. I think I'd be cool with 4-team alliances at a Regional tournament if that was the tradeoff!

-George

EricH 22-01-2017 17:51

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMentor (Post 1634835)
Actually, no, they didn't do that in 2015. They have NEVER* allowed teams to choose what player stations they wanted to be in (my memory only goes back as far as 2009, which I think was the first year of the non-IFI control system genesis - it may be possible they allowed it prior to 2009, but that was a different system right?). I believe 2015 was the first game where a rule similar to C12 was introduced, because teams wanted to "migrate" to other player stations (I know mine did for sure!).

I remember that 2015 had a rule similar to C12 at one point, and it wasn't called when it could have been.

I also want to say that the rule was changed to allow shuffling team stations around that year, but don't recall for sure.

rspurlin 22-01-2017 21:11

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Longtime scorekeeper here. As soon as the previous match is scored, we begin the setup for the next match. The major part of that is setting up the field access point to respond only to the six teams coming onto the field and to establish a virtual private network for each team. This is why you have no comms if you're in the wrong station. Station assignments also allow the FTA to see exactly what is going on with your team linking to the field by looking at the stack lights.

Schedule generation attempts to make a qualification schedule that maximizes the variety of partners and opponents, maximizes time between matches, balances appearance on red/blue and in each station, among other things. Giving teams the opportunity to alter this for every match not only makes my job much harder, but would likely slow down the process, resulting in fewer matches per team. There also seems to be an opportunity for better teams to strongarm a weaker team into an inferior position, which wouldn't be GP.

Many offseason events don't use a full FMS and instead set up shared networks with no VPN. In those events it wouldn't matter which station you're in.

Peyton Yeung 22-01-2017 21:14

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rspurlin (Post 1634924)
Longtime scorekeeper here. As soon as the previous match is scored, we begin the setup for the next match. The major part of that is setting up the field access point to respond only to the six teams coming onto the field and to establish a virtual private network for each team. This is why you have no comms if you're in the wrong station. Station assignments also allow the FTA to see exactly what is going on with your team linking to the field by looking at the stack lights.

Schedule generation attempts to make a qualification schedule that maximizes the variety of partners and opponents, maximizes time between matches, balances appearance on red/blue and in each station, among other things. Giving teams the opportunity to alter this for every match not only makes my job much harder, but would likely slow down the process, resulting in fewer matches per team. There also seems to be an opportunity for better teams to strongarm a weaker team into an inferior position, which wouldn't be GP.

Many offseason events don't use a full FMS and instead set up shared networks with no VPN. In those events it wouldn't matter which station you're in.

I think what people want is to select positions for playoff matches only. This shouldn't affect the number of matches each team gets.

EricH 22-01-2017 21:22

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1634926)
I think what people want is to select positions for playoff matches only. This shouldn't affect the number of matches each team gets.

And for playoffs, I would see why. Each alliance would want to maximize each team's usefulness.

But, the GDC has ruled the way they ruled. I expect there will be some complaining during the season.


I would also expect that whoever ISN'T a Pilot or Driver/Operator will be busy as extra eyes, unless they're the Human Player on Loading Lane duty.

rspurlin 22-01-2017 21:40

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1634926)
I think what people want is to select positions for playoff matches only. This shouldn't affect the number of matches each team gets.

For elims you are correct, but it might require extra time to run them. There are a lot of ramifications to running behind schedule. Some of the comments above seemed to imply that they wanted to select stations for any match. Maybe I misunderstood.

Last year's FMS (I haven't seen this year's yet) did not have the ability to do individual edits to the schedule, so it would be up to the scorekeeper to override the schedule prior to each match. I know it looks like we're just sitting on our butts behind the scoring table, but we're really busy during match play and busier that that during most breaks (especially prior to alliance selection). We're trying really hard to make sure you get on the field on schedule and that every match is run as fairly as possible. There are also impacts to queueing to consider.

ollien 22-01-2017 21:46

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rspurlin (Post 1634940)
Last year's FMS (I haven't seen this year's yet) did not have the ability to do individual edits to the schedule, so it would be up to the scorekeeper to override the schedule prior to each match.

What happens at champs then? Per last year's rules, (emphasis mine)

Quote:

ALLIANCES may start with any three (3) of the four (4) ROBOTS on their ALLIANCE during Subdivision Playoff MATCHES and during the Championship Playoffs. The list of three (3) Teams participating in the MATCH and their selected PLAYER STATIONS is called the LINEUP. One representative from the Team not on the LINEUP is allowed in the CASTLE as a thirteenth ALLIANCE member.
Do they just manually override the schedule there?

Nuttyman54 22-01-2017 22:56

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1634942)
What happens at champs then? [...]

Do they just manually override the schedule there?

Because Champs runs 4 team alliances and the alliance selects which 3 of the 4 play, they have to be manually entered because the FMS does not know which 3 teams to put. If they're already manually entering teams for playoffs there's no reason not to allow the alliance to also pick their driver stations. Champs is a special circumstance in this regard, and there are set rules at Champs about when teams and driver stations must be submitted.

rspurlin 22-01-2017 23:07

Re: 2017 Team Update 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ollien (Post 1634942)
What happens at champs then? Per last year's rules, (emphasis mine)



Do they just manually override the schedule there?

Yes, usually, though that is just swapping one team for another. It's not a fruit basket turnover of positions. Some of those who've been around for a while remember when teams would be randomly assigned positions for Elims also. Which meant that at least once per elimination tournament teams would have to switch driver stations between back to back matches. The fixed assignment at least gets rid of that silliness.

FIRST has their reasons for what they do, even if they don't always share the full thought process. The fact that they addressed it in a team update shows that they are thinking about it.


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