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-   -   Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153983)

Oblarg 24-01-2017 16:36

Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by engunneer (Post 1635773)
You could say the same thing about pneumatic solenoids or pressure regulators or motors that are similar to legal motors but not on the list, or fans, or, or, or. That's why we have rules that define what is and isn't legal.

The rules you compare this to have an explicit list of legal products.

Here, the distinction comes down to an arbitrary distinction in manufacturing method that may or may not be able to be ascertained for any given product.

There's a world of difference between the two.

Retired Starman 25-01-2017 00:09

Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1635737)
I will state again that if the pragmatic effect of this rule is that functionally-equivalent products from different brands have differing legality, and so teams who didn't happen to purchase the right brand of velcro are in violation of the rule, then it is a bad rule and should be changed.

There are lots of products where it's probably nearly impossible to ascertain the legality under the current ruling, as well.

As with all items not explicitly mentioned in the rules, it is up to the team to prove to the Robot Inspectors that the item is legal. This is best done by showing a product sheet describing the product in terms that agree with the rules. So if you are using a hook and loop fastener product on your robot, perhaps you should bring a product sheet from that particular manufacturer with the same model number that appears on the invoice you have for its purchase. If that product sheet meets the description of a FIRST compliant rope, and doesn't violate any of the legal descriptions ( a WOVEN stainless steel rope would not be legal, just because it's woven), then you have a much better chance of making the LRI happy.

If, however, you have just any old hook and loop, and try to use Velcro's description of a very particular product which is woven, then expect some careful and pointed questioning. At my events, you will need to show that you, in fact, are using the product described in the product sheet.

Mr.Krafty 25-01-2017 11:51

Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop
 
I believer these two sources should be legal for the rope. they are knitted loop fasteners that are sewn. Knitting is knots and they are a uniform hook system through the entire length.

http://cascade-usa.com/double-face-k...tape-4958.html

http://store.friddles.com/browse.cfm...rl/4,2397.html

Regards,

efoote868 25-01-2017 14:45

Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1635737)
I will state again that if the pragmatic effect of this rule is that functionally-equivalent products from different brands have differing legality, and so teams who didn't happen to purchase the right brand of velcro are in violation of the rule, then it is a bad rule and should be changed.

There are lots of products where it's probably nearly impossible to ascertain the legality under the current ruling, as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1635775)
Here, the distinction comes down to an arbitrary distinction in manufacturing method that may or may not be able to be ascertained for any given product.

Personally, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why there is still any controversy. FIRST has a default rope for any and every team that elects not to bring their own. FIRST also allows teams to fabricate their own ropes (emphasis on the PLURALITY of ropes that teams are allowed to bring to competition and have inspected), as well as share. Getting a single rope of the many ropes teams are allowed to bring to pass inspections isn't a requirement for teams to compete. There isn't a requirement that the ropes be identical either. There is no requirement that a rope contains a component of hook and loop fastener either.

The rule is pretty clear on characteristics of materials that are allowed in a rope, as well as how teams can fabricate their rope. Any team that shows up to an event with a rope containing illegal materials, and I'm certain there will be multiple of teams there to help them fabricate a legal rope or loan them a spare.

Oblarg 25-01-2017 15:04

Re: Help me find evidence to support the use of hook and loop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1636198)
Personally, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why there is still any controversy. FIRST has a default rope for any and every team that elects not to bring their own. FIRST also allows teams to fabricate their own ropes (emphasis on the PLURALITY of ropes that teams are allowed to bring to competition and have inspected), as well as share. Getting a single rope of the many ropes teams are allowed to bring to pass inspections isn't a requirement for teams to compete. There isn't a requirement that the ropes be identical either. There is no requirement that a rope contains a component of hook and loop fastener either.

The rule is pretty clear on characteristics of materials that are allowed in a rope, as well as how teams can fabricate their rope. Any team that shows up to an event with a rope containing illegal materials, and I'm certain there will be multiple of teams there to help them fabricate a legal rope or loan them a spare.

That it will likely be possible to work around the badness of the rule does not make the rule not bad.


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