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Brian Maher 24-01-2017 17:36

Vetting defensive picks
 
Teams who have looked to pick defenders in the past, do you ask prospective defensive picks any questions to assess their suitability and/or willingness for the role? If so:
  • What do you ask?
  • When do you ask it? During regular pit scouting? The morning before alliance selection?
  • Do you ask anyone in the pit, or is there someone in particular such as a head scout, drive coach, or team captain that you seek out?

Billfred 24-01-2017 20:11

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1635805)
Teams who have looked to pick defenders in the past, do you ask prospective defensive picks any questions to assess their suitability and/or willingness for the role? If so:
  • What do you ask?
  • When do you ask it? During regular pit scouting? The morning before alliance selection?
  • Do you ask anyone in the pit, or is there someone in particular such as a head scout, drive coach, or team captain that you seek out?

Garnet Squadron has done a lot of business with S.P.A.M. at the Orlando Regional. One of their match scouting items most years is "Defensive Move". It's one of those things that's tricky to define (perhaps someone from 180 will chime in here), but obvious when it's seen--a well-timed thwack, slowing someone down by swerving, stealing a game piece, etc. That's what got us picked in 2014, and that worked out right nice for all concerned.

If they're putting up good metrics (noticeably more moves without drawing fouls or dying or whatever), clearly they're good at it--I can't see anyone being insulted by being picked for that. (Phrase it as a positive--messaging is important!) Place an encouraging word with the drivers or coach Friday afternoon and go from there.

New Lightning 24-01-2017 20:22

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
I think that it would be really hard to know if you need a defending robot in your strategy until you are on the field for alliance selection and you know which alliance you are going up against and who the have partnered with.

The only reason that drafting a defensive robot would make since would be because you know that no matter what you do you will never be able to out score your opponents. In that case you would need some way to bring down their effectiveness and a playing defensive robot could certainly help level the playing field. However the only way for you to know how many points there going to score is to know who is going to be on their alliance. And as I stated earlier the you won't know that until you are on the field. You might have a good idea who the alliance captain that your going to face is, but more than likely you won't know who their first pick is going to be, so you have to wait till you are on the field.

So in terms of prep for drafting one I would say that if you have any in mind after you make your pick list just ask them on Saturday morning would they be comfortable doing that for you. I find that if you are anywhere close to being in a picking position and your looking for a team to play defense for they probable will not be very highly ranked, especially since they would have to be your second pick, and they will be doing to do pretty much whatever you ask them to do in order to get picked.

Tungrus 24-01-2017 20:26

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
One question to drive team: what dog breed do you like?

Any one with answer: pit bull or chihuahua will be on top of my list :D

EricLeifermann 24-01-2017 20:31

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Picking a team you want to play defense is done by paying attention to how the team drives on the field. Any robot can play defense. You should want the team that knows how to handle their robot and who don't make wasted movements on the field.

Chief Hedgehog 24-01-2017 20:41

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Better have a good drive train and an even better driver. The drive coach needs to be able to read the referees and know when they are about to call fouls.

Scouting refs is as important as scouting teams when it comes to eliminations.

Tungrus 24-01-2017 20:42

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1635884)
Picking a team you want to play defense is done by paying attention to how the team drives on the field. Any robot can play defense. You should want the team that knows how to handle their robot and who don't make wasted movements on the field.

You are right, any robot can play defense, but its the driver's mindset. Annoying little robot can throw off a good scoring robot.

Ari423 24-01-2017 20:43

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1635884)
Any non-mecanum robot can play defense.

Fixed that for you

messer5740 24-01-2017 20:45

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tungrus (Post 1635881)
One question to drive team: what dog breed do you like?

Any one with answer: pit bull or chihuahua will be on top of my list :D

Small, agile, fast, chihuahua style defense robot is definitely a great pick! Ramming other robots is an excellent strategy, for it completely messes with their steering, and you at most times can plow right through them.

Kevin Leonard 24-01-2017 21:08

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
#1 thing is that we can work with the team. Did we have qualification matches with them where they did exactly what they were supposed to do, even if that was an offensive task? There are some teams that are really difficult to work with for various reasons that lose out even if their robot is otherwise perfect for the role.
#2 thing is secondary features- do they have an autonomous or an endgame feature that gives them points outside of playing defense? (i.e. auto or climb this year). Do they have a shifting drivetrain and have proven they can use it? Do they have mecanum or omni drive that might not be able to play the kind of defense we want them to?

After that it comes down to talking with the teams and talking to our scouts and seeing who appears to know what they're doing on the field and off the field.

EricLeifermann 24-01-2017 21:10

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1635892)
Fixed that for you

False, playing defense doesn't have to be a bumper to bumper pushing match. Every second you cause the other team to waste is time well spent.

Though most teams don't have the practice with mecanums to play defense well with them.

Ari423 24-01-2017 21:14

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1635913)
False, playing defense doesn't have to be a bumper to bumper pushing match. Every second you cause the other team to waste is time well spent.

Though most teams don't have the practice with mecanums to play defense well with them.

My team has played defense for 2 seasons with mecanums. It's not impossible, and when you're good at it, it can wreak havoc on robots that show when they're about to shoot. In 2011, we were the 2nd seed at the Philadelphia regional with a mecanum robot that didn't have any manipulator just because of our driver's ability to play defense. That being said, it would take a very special case for me to pick a mecanum robot as a dedicated defense robot.

Any tank drive robot with a bit of driver practice can play effective defense. The same can only be said about exemplary mecanum robots with a lot more driver practice.


EDIT: It was the New Jersey Regional

CalTran 24-01-2017 21:40

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1635913)
False, playing defense doesn't have to be a bumper to bumper pushing match. Every second you cause the other team to waste is time well spent.

Though most teams don't have the practice with mecanums to play defense well with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1635914)
My team has played defense for 2 seasons with mecanums. It's not impossible, and when you're good at it, it can wreak havoc on robots that show when they're about to shoot. In 2011, we were the 2nd seed at the Philadelphia regional with a mecanum robot that didn't have any manipulator just because of our driver's ability to play defense. That being said, it would take a very special case for me to pick a mecanum robot as a dedicated defense robot.

Any tank drive robot with a bit of driver practice can play effective defense. The same can only be said about exemplary mecanum robots with a lot more driver practice.


2013 Arkansas Razorback Regional we ended up playing harassment defense on mecanum wheels and a tall robot. Zip around the pyramid and midfield and make them always take the long way and force them to not full court shoot. Something similar could be done this year if they're a retrieval zone robot, where you make them go completely around the airship rather than bee line from one corner to the other. And man, delaying a gear cycle...

Brian Maher 24-01-2017 22:05

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Thank you all for the excellent advice and comments, though none of them address one piece of the puzzle I am curious about: interacting with prospective defenders to make sure they're on board with playing defense. I've heard of situations where a team isn't exactly thrilled to be playing defense, despite being picked for them to do so, or is unwilling to put a blocker on their robot for defense purposes. I am looking for advice to avoid situations like this.

CalTran 24-01-2017 22:10

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1635938)
Thank you all for the excellent advice and comments, though none of them address one piece of the puzzle I am curious about: interacting with prospective defenders to make sure they're on board with playing defense. I've heard of situations where a team isn't exactly thrilled to be playing defense, despite being picked for them to do so, or is unwilling to put a blocker on their robot for defense purposes. I am looking for advice to avoid situations like this.

Haha, as far as the actual post, seems like a simple question - Friday afternoon or Saturday morning, you have someone walk over to their drive team and ask "Hi, we're XXXX, we're seeded X, and looks like we're going to be X Alliance Captain; we were impressed with your driving and were interested in picking you during alliance selections as a defensive team. We may also need to slightly modify your robot (or cheesecake your robot depending on how down with the lingo you want to be). Would your team be okay with this?"
If yes, they stay on the pick list. If no, move on to the next team.

Ari423 24-01-2017 22:15

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1635938)
Thank you all for the excellent advice and comments, though none of them address one piece of the puzzle I am curious about: interacting with prospective defenders to make sure they're on board with playing defense. I've heard of situations where a team isn't exactly thrilled to be playing defense, despite being picked for them to do so, or is unwilling to put a blocker on their robot for defense purposes. I am looking for advice to avoid situations like this.

If you're looking at a specific robot only in terms of it's capabilities to play defense, I think it would be a good idea to stop by their pit before alliance selection and ask if they would be okay with playing defense and cheesecaking a blocker. If they say yes, that takes care of that problem. If they say no, you know you probably shouldn't pick that team.

In 2014, my team's robot was effectively just a tall drive base, but we did a good job of playing defense* (see a pattern here?). Before alliance selection at both of our competitions, teams came to us and asked if we would be willing to play defense for them if their alliance strategy called for it. Of course we said yes. It only took 2 minutes and they had the answer you're looking for.


* We actually played defense so hard that we were breaking our opponents' robots. This was the year of the white Clippards, so we burst a few of those. We started keeping a tally in sharpie on the side of our robot of the number of robots we broke, turned off, or otherwise disabled throughout the season. IIRC that number got into the double digits.

GeeTwo 24-01-2017 22:28

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Maher (Post 1635938)
Thank you all for the excellent advice and comments, though none of them address one piece of the puzzle I am curious about: interacting with prospective defenders to make sure they're on board with playing defense. I've heard of situations where a team isn't exactly thrilled to be playing defense, despite being picked for them to do so, or is unwilling to put a blocker on their robot for defense purposes. I am looking for advice to avoid situations like this.

To learn this, you will need someone who is good at reading people's attitude, and ask the prospects frank questions. The person asking and the person "reading" do not necessarily need to be the same person. For example, if you have one person ask the the questions in a routine way and obviously take notes of the words, while someone else gauges responses of both the coach and the driver and makes notes after leaving the discussion, that well selected "reader" is likely to produce the info you seek.

Munchskull 25-01-2017 00:56

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari423 (Post 1635944)
* We actually played defense so hard that we were breaking our opponents' robots. This was the year of the white Clippards, so we burst a few of those. We started keeping a tally in sharpie on the side of our robot of the number of robots we broke, turned off, or otherwise disabled throughout the season. IIRC that number got into the double digits.

I nominate this for the most gangster thing I have seen in FRC.

*Rachelle* 25-01-2017 01:36

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
When looking for a defensive robot, talking to the team itself isn't my first go-to.

Match scouting is gonna tell you most of what you need to know.

Look at their drive style- are they slower to respond or are they proactive in their driving? Some teams are good at just getting in the way of others in the midst of their offense, this can speak to their skill.

Is it apparent that they know the defensive rules?- For example, sometimes you can see their coach or co-driver watching the ref for a countdown. Fouls in elims can often be the difference between win or loss. It is generally apparent if the driver is timid in his movements or intentional with them.

Overall pit/match- Is the robot robust? All you need for a defensive bot is a good driver and a robot that isn't going to fall apart on impact. (Or maybe their bumpers keep falling off and there's an easy way to fix it)

Find the gem- Sometimes a robot won't be great offensively and will slip through the cracks of scouting. They may only play defense in one match for various reasons. In this case, again take a look at their drive style and refer to the other points I mentioned.

When talking to the team- It's usually easy to tell in a conversation with the drive team their knowledge. You can ask if they are willing to play defense, but I try to listen to tone on this one. Some will be a wishy-washy yes, others will be excited to tell you about it. This more refers to the Driver's knowledge on rules again and whether the driver knows how to drive defensively (I guess I keep coming back to drive style and rules knowledge). I saw one robot defend against two robots quite effectively last year.

Last point, yes, it might be good to ask about cheesecaking. Whether adding a net or something else. Actually, some teams may have one made and just not bring it out until elims.

pmattin5459 25-01-2017 05:06

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
One thing I have to add here on the subject of cheesecaking: I don't think it'll be too useful this year. The best defensive robots will probably have the wider config, which is also only 2 ft tall. This doesn't really give you much room to put in a blocker, and even the 3 ft config won't be tall enough to block any shots, especially with the angle teams will be shooting at. Defense is likely to be based more on trying to hit targets at key points in their cycle and getting in their way when their driver's can't see their robot.

Ari423 25-01-2017 08:44

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmattin5459 (Post 1636015)
One thing I have to add here on the subject of cheesecaking: I don't think it'll be too useful this year. The best defensive robots will probably have the wider config, which is also only 2 ft tall. This doesn't really give you much room to put in a blocker, and even the 3 ft config won't be tall enough to block any shots, especially with the angle teams will be shooting at. Defense is likely to be based more on trying to hit targets at key points in their cycle and getting in their way when their driver's can't see their robot.

As I said earlier in this thread, pretty much any tank drive robot with a decent driver can play effective defense. They may not be the absolute best at it, but it will still be effective. If that means only picking a tall volume robot for defense with the intent of cheesecaking on a blocker, so be it.

arichman1257 25-01-2017 09:01

Re: Vetting defensive picks
 
During the season we were on both sides of having defense on our alliance (that is being a captain and picking a defender and being picked to be a defender). We asked questions like:
What type of drive train do you have?
What type of wheels do you have?
How many and what type of drive motors do you have?
How much does your robot weigh?
How many years has your drive team been on the drive team?

And before every match that we had a defender we would make sure that they knew all relevant rules on defending (Pinning, ramming, etc.)

We asked these questions during pit scouting and took it into account during our selection process the night before the day of alliance selections. We didn't actually ask about cheesecaking a blocker and it did not prove to be necessary because we won the event.(MAR Mt. Olive 2016)

At MAR District Championship we were chosen to be a defender. They asked us if we'd be willing to put a wall on our robot and the answer was "definitely". We were a very light robot, pushing wasn't really its specialty. But that's okay! Good defense last year proved to be less about pushing robots and more about strategic playing. We would park our wall in front of a robot and just wait for them to shoot. Yadda yadda I'm getting away from myself here.

The moral of the story is that while all of that previously mentioned robot things are important, you need to make sure that whatever team you pick as a defender knows how to hit the important elements of defending for whatever game you're having them defend for. (Defense strategy discussion can be somewhere else. I've digressed enough :) )


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