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-   -   Team Update 6 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154328)

Bkeeneykid 27-01-2017 13:13

Team Update 6
 
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate06.pdf

Summary:
  • Stop posting duplicate questions!
  • There's only one string of LEDs in the steam pipe.
  • It's week three, and it looks like FIRST is STILL refining field designs.
  • Shenzen and Champ practice fields will not be official FIRST fields (presumably AM fields)
  • Despite being in the rules already, there's now another place that says there can be only two people in the airship.
  • While turning a gear to score it, if you leave it idle for 10 seconds before the three rotations, it resets to zero. (this also affected Q82, and has been updated)
  • Touchpads are likely to break at 75 lbs of force.
  • You can now legally grab your own rope.
  • Apparently the touchpad dome likes to come unseated, and is no longer a foul if you do so.
  • You can now use protrusions that can pose hazards to team supplied ropes.
  • More rope rules: Now knitted, crocheted, intertwined ropes are legal. I can't wait for my knitted industrial rope!

bobbysq 27-01-2017 13:21

Re: Team Update 6
 
CROCHETED VELCRO CONFIRMED LEGAL

Hallry 27-01-2017 13:29

Re: Team Update 6
 
Another team update, another change in the definition of a rope

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 13:36

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1637094)
More rope rules: Now knitted, crocheted, intertwined ropes are legal. I can't wait for my knitted industrial rope!

Calling all grandmas! We need 3000 crocheted ropes for team's!

KJaget 27-01-2017 13:41

Re: Team Update 6
 
We have our rope picked out.

jvriezen 27-01-2017 13:43

Re: Team Update 6
 
I came up with Q82, hoping that one could defer finishing a lower numbered rotor and do most of the rotations on higher numbered rotors with non-preinstalled gears, so that when more gears arrived, you could 'finish off' more than one rotor without having to turn all of them three times. In other words, before starting #2, put gears on #3 and give it 2+ rotations, then move the gears back to #2 to give it three rotations. When the last needed gear for #3 arrives late in the match, only a 1 (or less) rotations are needed there. So much for that idea, unless you can squeeze it in the 10 second window.

What if I want to macrame a rope?

http://www.redheart.com/articles/mac...erns-and-knots

aldaeron 27-01-2017 13:45

Re: Team Update 6
 
1 Attachment(s)
To save everyone a click on what was changed on the field drawings:

They added this clamping collar and a 1/4-20 bolt to the spring. The bolt protrudes approx 1.31" into the spring and has a nylock nut (4 inch bolt and the thickness of GE-17048 is 2.69")

Changes highlighted in yellow based on drawing note (Didn't save the old version to compare myself)

-matto-

efoote868 27-01-2017 13:47

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KJaget (Post 1637108)
We have our rope picked out.

This is just getting silly.

JesseK 27-01-2017 13:56

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1637094)
  • You can now legally grab your own rope.

Slight misinterpretation. Specifically, prior to this TU, [G15-H] included all ROPES, including team-supplied, with no guidelines around what constitutes damage instead of wear and tear.

Now we are allowed to damage our own ropes so long as the damage doesn't cause any fragment of the rope to litter the field. This is a very positive change from a referee, inspector and a team perspective.

dodar 27-01-2017 13:57

Re: Team Update 6
 
"If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR remains idle for more than ten (10) seconds, the rotation count resets to zero (0)."

Does this pretty much mean you have to go in order now? Can't see why you would go out of order anyways but I think this pretty much says go in order it you have to start over.

GeeTwo 27-01-2017 14:02

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1637094)
  • Stop posting duplicate questions!

Hooray! It also wastes the time of the thousands of people who read all of the answers as they are posted. ::rtm::

EricLeifermann 27-01-2017 14:05

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1637123)
"If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR remains idle for more than ten (10) seconds, the rotation count resets to zero (0)."

Does this pretty much mean you have to go in order now? Can't see why you would go out of order anyways but I think this pretty much says go in order it you have to start over.

You've always had to go in order.

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 14:09

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1637127)
You've always had to go in order.

What rule is that?

JesseK 27-01-2017 14:12

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1637129)
What rule is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 3.4.2
Once a ROTOR is started, it remains turning for the duration of the MATCH. ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4.

Just below Figure 3-12.

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 14:13

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1637130)
Just below Figure 3-12.

Yes. It would be nice if people remembered to quote the rules when they make definitive statements about those rules.

EricLeifermann 27-01-2017 14:15

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1637131)
Yes. It would be nice if people remembered to quote the rules when they make definitive statements about those rules.

It would also be nice if people read the rules thoroughly. Its not up to me to hand feed them. I gave them a reason to go look at the rules again, so they could learn.

JesseK 27-01-2017 14:16

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1637131)
Yes. It would be nice if people remembered to quote the rules when they make definitive statements about those rules.

Sure. It was correct in this case so we could have just left it at that. If it was incorrect, plenty of people would have corrected it. Such is CD.

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 14:19

Re: Team Update 6
 
I'm so glad to know that I can just come on here and trust anything I read about the game so long as no one has come along to correct it yet.

Taylor 27-01-2017 14:22

Re: Team Update 6
 
I'll admit: in my numerous re-readings of the 2017 manual, I missed the caption below a figure that explicitly states the rotors must be engaged in order, as did a few others in this thread.
And we're the 'good ones'.

Aside from the occasional "do we have a weight requirement this year??" silliness, I'll refrain from ordering people to ::rtm::.

EricLeifermann 27-01-2017 14:32

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1637137)
I'm so glad to know that I can just come on here and trust anything I read about the game so long as no one has come along to correct it yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1637140)
I'll admit: in my numerous re-readings of the 2017 manual, I missed the caption below a figure that explicitly states the rotors must be engaged in order, as did a few others in this thread.
And we're the 'good ones'.

Aside from the occasional "do we have a weight requirement this year??" silliness, I'll refrain from ordering people to ::rtm::.


By not citing the actual rule, or in this case a caption in the rule book, it forces someone to do research into it. I don't need to tell someone to read the manual, I can give them a reason to by giving them information that they need to verify. Don't just hand your students the answer make them work for it and they'll remember it more. At least that's what all my teachers, that I would consider good, did for me.

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 14:43

Re: Team Update 6
 
So basically, you're saying that instead of just telling people where to find the relevant piece of information when you post it, you'd rather make them go back and read through a 130 page manual in the hopes that they'll spot that one line of text underneath a picture this time?

I make my students read the rule book. When they ask me questions I don't just give them the answer... but I do tell them roughly where to find the answer and help them interpret it. I don't just leave them to struggle through 130 pages without knowing if what they're looking for is even mentioned in there or a figment of someone's imagination.

Hallry 27-01-2017 14:45

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1637148)
So basically, you're saying that instead of just telling people where to find the relevant piece of information when you post it, you'd rather make them go back and read through a 130 page manual in the hopes that they'll spot that one line of text underneath a picture this time?

Couldn't you have just CTRL-F the word "Rotor"...? Or, to be even more precise, "order"?

Also, FIRST conveniently splits the 2017 Game and Season Manual into sections, as advertised on their website. You could safely bet that this rule in question would be in either Section 3: Arena, Section 4: Match Play, or Section 7: Game Rules.

Andrew Schreiber 27-01-2017 14:52

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1637149)
Couldn't you have just CTRL-F the word "Rotor"...? Or, to be even more precise, "order"?

And it's probably not in Sections 1,2,3,5,8,9, or 10. So, I mean, that rules out a lot of the manual to start with.

MasterMentor 27-01-2017 14:53

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid (Post 1637094)
  • Shenzen and Champ practice fields will not be official FIRST fields (presumably AM fields)
  • Despite being in the rules already, there's now another place that says there can be only two people in the airship.
  • Touchpads are likely to break at 75 lbs of force.
  • Apparently the touchpad dome likes to come unseated, and is no longer a foul if you do so.

I appreciate the summary, but it would be more appreciated if you'd not incorrectly summarize the Team Update.
  • Both the FIRST and the AndyMark fields are both "official fields" used at Official FIRST Robotics Competition events. Otherwise, are district events "official"?
  • It seems I am unable to find a maximum capacity on the airship prior to Team Update 06, except G03 says how many people must be in the airship during a match. I assume FIRST added a maximum capacity for safety reasons for people wanting to go into the airship before and after the tournament.
  • The Team Update says that 75lbs of force is UNLIKELY to damage the touchpad. That seems like a roundabout way of recommending "don't use more than 75lbs of pressure", but it in now way definitively states that 76lbs will cause damage. My guess is FIRST factored in a safety factor and is hiding the true damage amount, if they even know themselves, but they're confident in how much force won't damage it.
  • Wow, that's quite a stretch to get "the touchpad dome likes to come unseated" from the Team Update. They just said it's not field damage, probably in the same way popping a zip tie or knocking off a piece of plastic isn't necessarily field damage. I'll reserve my assumptions for when I finally see one of these in a competition setting.

-George

Jon Stratis 27-01-2017 14:54

Re: Team Update 6
 
Rotor = 57 mentions
Order = 34 mentions

That's if you search the entire manual. Of course, something like this you'd think would be mentioned in the game rules, or maybe in match play, so you just open those one's up and search, don't find anything (Since it's talked about in the Arena), and assume what? That Eric is wrong?

The point is, simply making a statement on here and forcing everyone else to go verify its reliability is making everyone look for a needle in a haystack, and it could be very easy for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the assumptions they make. If we really want to ensure reliable, easily verifiable discussion about the rules, references should actually be made to where we get our information.

Trust me, in industry you don't just make statements about what's required for a product. You actually reference the requirement you're discussing, and when applicable even quote parts of it to ensure everyone is on the same page and agrees with whats been said. To do otherwise invites product errors.

Kevin Sevcik 27-01-2017 14:56

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1637130)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 3.4.2
Once a ROTOR is started, it remains turning for the duration of the MATCH. ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4.

Just below Figure 3-12.

Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

dodar 27-01-2017 14:58

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637158)
Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

JesseK 27-01-2017 15:01

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637158)
Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

This is a good question, and I don't think there's verbiage against putting gears on (e.g.) rotor 3 before rotor 2 has started turning. In the manual, the sentence after my quote says that order within a single gear set doesn't matter. Yet it also doesn't specify that order of filling the gear sets matters. Therefore, the only thing that matters is activation order. I searched 'gear set'.

RoboChair 27-01-2017 15:07

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1637160)
No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

That's not what the update is talking about.

Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 9 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will start.
Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 10 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will not start. The rotor still needs an additional 2.75 turns now.

You must get all 3 gear turns within about 10 seconds.

Kevin Sevcik 27-01-2017 15:08

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1637160)
No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

Not what I'm suggesting. I know Rotor 2 won't turn until Rotor 1 is turning. That's made clear by "ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4".

The question is if I can place the gears for Rotor 2, THEN place the gear for Rotor 1, then start turning Rotor 2. Or better, crank on Rotor 2 while Rotor 1 gear is being placed. The only time I see this mattering is in a 3 gear auton attempt, but it could matter a lot for making that happen. I'm assuming slamming a gear in a slot is faster than placing it on a peg, so you ideally want to overlap building Rotor 2 gear set and placing gear in Rotor 1.

Chris is me 27-01-2017 15:27

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMentor (Post 1637153)
I appreciate the summary, but it would be more appreciated if you'd not incorrectly summarize the Team Update.

Both the FIRST and the AndyMark fields are both "official fields" used at Official FIRST Robotics Competition events. Otherwise, are district events "official"?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Both the update and the original post use "official" to refer to the FIRST supplied field. The manual once said all regionals and championship fields use the FIRST design, now it has exceptions (and as the only other legal design is the AndyMark one, it follows that those events are using the AM field). He didn't say anything about AndyMark no longer being an official field.

---

As for the update, the manual always allowed you to grab your own rope - it now explicitly allows you to DAMAGE your own rope. That is the change.

Koko Ed 27-01-2017 15:39

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1637124)
Hooray! It also wastes the time of the thousands of people who read all of the answers as they are posted. ::rtm::

This why CD is a good training program to wean the inexperienced from making such a painful error in judgement. Being told to "search before you post" enough times should set you on the right path in the FIRST community!

rich2202 27-01-2017 16:00

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637164)
The question is if I can place the gears for Rotor 2, THEN place the gear for Rotor 1, then start turning Rotor 2.

Gears can be placed in any order. To wit: The pre-populated gears that may be removed for Worlds.

FYI: The issue of Rotor order was also discussed in Q82
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/82

FYI2: Once a gear is used to turn a rotor, it cannot be removed.
H10

jvriezen 27-01-2017 18:08

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1637180)

FYI2: Once a gear is used to turn a rotor, it cannot be removed.
H10

Not quite:
H10: GEARS stay installed. Once a ROTOR is started, the PILOT may not remove any GEARS used to start it.


This would indicate gear sets can be rotated, short of starting the rotor, and a non-pre-installed gear can then be removed. If you can get the same or another gear back on the gear set and continue rotating before 10 seconds elapsed, you'd still be good, I'd think, otherwise you have to start a new three rotations.

Depends upon where the sensors are, I'd think one on first and last gear in set would be sufficient. But maybe there's only a sensor on one of those and they rely on refs to see that you don't cheat the system.

s-neff 27-01-2017 18:55

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OP
It's week three, and it looks like FIRST is STILL refining field designs.

Been waiting for that particular update since Kickoff. Still waiting for some missing [non-critical] dimensions. Not impressed with the quality of the field drawings this year, not surprised since it's the most complicated field I've ever seen. Sympathy for the GDC engineers working on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvriezen (Post 1637236)
This would indicate gear sets can be rotated, short of starting the rotor, and a non-pre-installed gear can then be removed. If you can get the same or another gear back on the gear set and continue rotating before 10 seconds elapsed, you'd still be good, I'd think, otherwise you have to start a new three rotations....

But as soon as the PILOT starts another rotor with that gear, it's locked down... so why bother spending time turning the rotor and risking an out-of-order-rotors penalty if you go too far, if you'll still need to pull a gear off the lift to complete it later?
Quote:

to see that you don't cheat the system.
How about we just don't try to cheat the system?
Folks are overthinking the gears rules.

Siri 27-01-2017 19:25

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s-neff (Post 1637246)
But as soon as the PILOT starts another rotor with that gear, it's locked down... so why bother spending time turning the rotor and risking an out-of-order-rotors penalty if you go too far, if you'll still need to pull a gear off the lift to complete it later?

I figure most of these questions relate primarily to top-tier autonomous routines. For instance, if you're expecting a 3-gear autonomous from your alliance, and two gears arrive first roughly at once, you'd probably prefer to put them in Rotor 2 and start rotating that set while gear 3 shows up. (This assumes Rotor 1's automatic start is relatively quick in comparison to Rotor 2.) The timespan you wait will almost certainly be less than 10 seconds in a 15 second total autonomous. However, if gear 3 subsequently fails (robot missing peg, etc), you'd still want to stop turning Rotor 2, remove a gear, and put it in Rotor 1 for the single autonomous bonus. This approach rests on the legality of rotating (not engaging) rotor cranks out of order and removing a gear after having rotated it (but not engaged it).

These are edge cases of course, but they could make a very big difference in a few teams' seasons. More teams will be working toward being those few, and the work to reach that point a huge upfront investment that benefits from understanding all these little details.

rich2202 27-01-2017 19:35

Re: Team Update 6
 
If Rotors only start if Gears are installed in Rotor Order (section 3.4.2), do "turns" out of sequence count? Does turning gears for Rotor 3 do any good if Rotor 2 has not yet been started?

EricH 27-01-2017 19:41

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1637263)
If Rotors only start if Gears are installed in Rotor Order (section 3.4.2), do "turns" out of sequence count? Does turning gears for Rotor 3 do any good if Rotor 2 has not yet been started?

Nope. Rotors have to be started in order, so any work you do to turn Rotor 3 gears is better saved for Rotor 2 gears (unless Rotor 2 is rotating).

Kevin Sevcik 27-01-2017 20:34

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s-neff (Post 1637246)
But as soon as the PILOT starts another rotor with that gear, it's locked down... so why bother spending time turning the rotor and risking an out-of-order-rotors penalty if you go too far, if you'll still need to pull a gear off the lift to complete it later?

Pretty sure there's no such thing as an out of order rotor penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1637263)
If Rotors only start if Gears are installed in Rotor Order (section 3.4.2), do "turns" out of sequence count? Does turning gears for Rotor 3 do any good if Rotor 2 has not yet been started?

I think this is covered by the new text in the update. "If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR..." implies that any rotor past the next sequential unengaged rotor isn't going to accumulate any rotations at all. Which only makes sense. Which further shoots down plans to prerotate a gear set, because only the next gear set will accumulate rotations. So there's no point to spinning up rotor 4 unless 3 is already going. And if 3 is going, you're not spinning 4 without a full gear set, at which point you spin it up completely.

The only reasonable case for placing gears out of order is a highly choreographed autonomous, as suggested by Siri, and by me in other threads. Possibly also disinformation relating to your total gear count as well.

s-neff 27-01-2017 21:05

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637288)
Pretty sure there's no such thing as an out of order rotor penalty.

Accurate. No incentive != penalty, apologies for the misinformation.
There *is* a penalty H14 for starting a rotor by any method besides turning the crank, which covers most of the rest of the 'creative gear scoring'
Quote:

...The only reasonable case for placing gears out of order is a highly choreographed autonomous
Doesn't this get nope'd by the same logic? [must activate rotor 1 to start counting rotations on rotor 2...] Maybe I'm misunderstanding the proposed autonomous.

Siri 27-01-2017 22:01

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637288)
I think this is covered by the new text in the update. "If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR..." implies that any rotor past the next sequential unengaged rotor isn't going to accumulate any rotations at all. Which only makes sense. Which further shoots down plans to prerotate a gear set, because only the next gear set will accumulate rotations. So there's no point to spinning up rotor 4 unless 3 is already going. And if 3 is going, you're not spinning 4 without a full gear set, at which point you spin it up completely.

The only reasonable case for placing gears out of order is a highly choreographed autonomous, as suggested by Siri, and by me in other threads. Possibly also disinformation relating to your total gear count as well.

I'm having trouble reading the new TU as definitively saying out-of-order turns don't count (even assuming actual engagement is sequential). To re-requote it with my emphasis: When a GEAR set for ROTORS 2, 3, or 4 is complete, a CRANK, a handle located with the first GEAR in the set, can be turned which engages the corresponding ROTOR. It takes three (3) full rotations to engage the ROTOR. If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR remains idle for more than ten (10) seconds, the rotation count resets to zero (0).

And Q82 (in part): "ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order." In other words, you won't be able to start ROTOR 4 until all other ROTORS have been started, etc.

As evidenced by the "in other words" of Q82, this is not a particularly tightly-worded section. (Requiring gears to be installed in rotor order is not in fact the same thing as starting rotors in order.) I suspect that HQ hasn't yet realized that this is of legitimate importance for some teams. As I read it now:
1) Rotors must be started in order.
2) A crank can be turned when a gear set is complete.
3) Rotation count resets when the next unengaged rotor has been idle for more than 10 seconds.

I don't think that (3) explicitly means rotations within those 10 seconds while that rotor isn't the next in sequence don't count. My reading of the logical flow is ambiguous across any of the following Step 5s:
Step 1 @ t=-3 Place Gear 1 in Rotor 2
Step 2 @ t=-1 Place Gear 2 in Rotor 2
Step 3 @ t=0 Turn Rotor 2 crank for 2 rotations
Step 4 @ t=3 Place Gear 3 in Rotor 1
Then:
  • Step 5 @ t=6 Turn Rotor 2 crank another rotation and engage Rotor 2
  • or Step 5 @ t=6 Turn Rotor 2 crank another rotation but cannot engage Rotor 2 because previous rotations didn't count
OR
  • Step 5 @ t=10 Turn Rotor 2 crank another rotation but cannot engage Rotor 2 because it is more than 10 seconds from its first rotation
  • or Step 5 @ t=10 Turn Rotor 2 crank another rotation and engage Rotor 2 because the prior rotations count and the clock doesn't start until Rotor 1 engages (such that Rotor 2 is next in sequence)
OR
  • Step 5 @ t=14 Never receive Gear 3, and remove Gear 2 from Rotor 2 to install in Rotor 1, engaging Rotor 1.
  • or Step 5 @ t=14 Never recieve Gear 3, and remove Gear 2 from Rotor 2 and install in Rotor 1 but don't get points for engaging Rotor 1 because you violated the paragraph about Figure 3-13 (despite HQ's interpretation of this clause in Q82).
  • or Step 5 @ t=14 Turn Rotor 2 crank another rotation and cannot engage Rotor 2 (because now either way you're outside the 10-second window)

Trying to boil this down into a Q&A, I'm thinking:
1) It is understood that GEARS cannot be removed after a ROTOR is engaged. However, can a GEAR be removed after a ROTOR is rotated but before it is engaged? Does this differ if the rotating is less than a full revolution or is accidental or strategic (in the estimation of the referees)?
2) It is understood that ROTORs must be engaged in ROTOR order. Must GEARS be also installed (placed without rotating) in ROTOR order? [A82 seems to interpret the manual p23 this way, but the manual still says "installed" rather than engaged or rotated.]
3) If GEARS need not be installed in ROTOR order, can ROTOR N be rotated (for accumulation of the required 3 rotations) before ROTOR N-1 is engaged, assuming the third rotation and engagement of ROTOR N still occurs after N-1 is engaged?
4) If ROTORs need not accumulate rotations in ROTOR order, does the (10) second idle window from TU6 start with the first rotation or when that ROTOR becomes the next sequential unengaged ROTOR?


Good point about deception regarding the number of gears you still need. My head was still stuck on autonomous.

Kevin Sevcik 27-01-2017 22:38

Re: Team Update 6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s-neff (Post 1637289)
Doesn't this get nope'd by the same logic? [must activate rotor 1 to start counting rotations on rotor 2...] Maybe I'm misunderstanding the proposed autonomous.

My personal 3 gear auton plan:
1. Fastest delivery to center peg, Pilot A lifts gear and hands to PB or sets near PB.
2. PB lifts and grabs gear with second fastest delivery. (You should know which this is.)
3. PB places both gears, finishing around 10-12s into match. And starts cranking for dear life.
4. At some point before (15 - 3 cranks) seconds, Pilot A has lifted last and slowest gear and slotted into Rotor 1.

The idea is that Rotor 2 is the slowest part of the process. If you can start it first and feed it the fastest two gears, you probably have the best chance at starting both Rotors.

Honestly, sans team this year I have nothing to ground my speculations, thus my musings about 3 gear autons and gear count deception potentially playing a role at very high levels.

Siri,
I'll admit that a completely literal reading of that section with new wording could mean that the 10 second timeout doesn't apply to any rotor past the next unengaged one. Which would make this possible, assuming no auton rotors:
1. Collect 5 gears + reserve.
2. Install on Rotor 4, spin thrice.
3. Remove, install on Rotor 3, spin thrice.
4. Install 2 leftover on Rotor 2, spin thrice.
5. Install next 6 gears on Rotor 4.
6. Install last, 12th gear on Rotor 1.
7. Rotors 2-4 engage instantly. Or within 3 PLC cycles.

That just seems ridiculous and would make the 10 second timeout pointless. So I'm assuming the GDC is just poor at fully defining the Rotor behavior in prose. It'd be easier for me if they just posted that segment of the FMS code, but that's probably not going to happen.


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