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Team Update 6
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...amUpdate06.pdf
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CROCHETED VELCRO CONFIRMED LEGAL
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Another team update, another change in the definition of a rope
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We have our rope picked out.
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I came up with Q82, hoping that one could defer finishing a lower numbered rotor and do most of the rotations on higher numbered rotors with non-preinstalled gears, so that when more gears arrived, you could 'finish off' more than one rotor without having to turn all of them three times. In other words, before starting #2, put gears on #3 and give it 2+ rotations, then move the gears back to #2 to give it three rotations. When the last needed gear for #3 arrives late in the match, only a 1 (or less) rotations are needed there. So much for that idea, unless you can squeeze it in the 10 second window.
What if I want to macrame a rope? http://www.redheart.com/articles/mac...erns-and-knots |
Re: Team Update 6
1 Attachment(s)
To save everyone a click on what was changed on the field drawings:
They added this clamping collar and a 1/4-20 bolt to the spring. The bolt protrudes approx 1.31" into the spring and has a nylock nut (4 inch bolt and the thickness of GE-17048 is 2.69") Changes highlighted in yellow based on drawing note (Didn't save the old version to compare myself) -matto- |
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Now we are allowed to damage our own ropes so long as the damage doesn't cause any fragment of the rope to litter the field. This is a very positive change from a referee, inspector and a team perspective. |
Re: Team Update 6
"If a GEAR set corresponding to the next sequential unengaged ROTOR remains idle for more than ten (10) seconds, the rotation count resets to zero (0)."
Does this pretty much mean you have to go in order now? Can't see why you would go out of order anyways but I think this pretty much says go in order it you have to start over. |
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I'm so glad to know that I can just come on here and trust anything I read about the game so long as no one has come along to correct it yet.
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I'll admit: in my numerous re-readings of the 2017 manual, I missed the caption below a figure that explicitly states the rotors must be engaged in order, as did a few others in this thread.
And we're the 'good ones'. Aside from the occasional "do we have a weight requirement this year??" silliness, I'll refrain from ordering people to ::rtm::. |
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By not citing the actual rule, or in this case a caption in the rule book, it forces someone to do research into it. I don't need to tell someone to read the manual, I can give them a reason to by giving them information that they need to verify. Don't just hand your students the answer make them work for it and they'll remember it more. At least that's what all my teachers, that I would consider good, did for me. |
Re: Team Update 6
So basically, you're saying that instead of just telling people where to find the relevant piece of information when you post it, you'd rather make them go back and read through a 130 page manual in the hopes that they'll spot that one line of text underneath a picture this time?
I make my students read the rule book. When they ask me questions I don't just give them the answer... but I do tell them roughly where to find the answer and help them interpret it. I don't just leave them to struggle through 130 pages without knowing if what they're looking for is even mentioned in there or a figment of someone's imagination. |
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Also, FIRST conveniently splits the 2017 Game and Season Manual into sections, as advertised on their website. You could safely bet that this rule in question would be in either Section 3: Arena, Section 4: Match Play, or Section 7: Game Rules. |
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-George |
Re: Team Update 6
Rotor = 57 mentions
Order = 34 mentions That's if you search the entire manual. Of course, something like this you'd think would be mentioned in the game rules, or maybe in match play, so you just open those one's up and search, don't find anything (Since it's talked about in the Arena), and assume what? That Eric is wrong? The point is, simply making a statement on here and forcing everyone else to go verify its reliability is making everyone look for a needle in a haystack, and it could be very easy for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the assumptions they make. If we really want to ensure reliable, easily verifiable discussion about the rules, references should actually be made to where we get our information. Trust me, in industry you don't just make statements about what's required for a product. You actually reference the requirement you're discussing, and when applicable even quote parts of it to ensure everyone is on the same page and agrees with whats been said. To do otherwise invites product errors. |
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Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 9 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will start. Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 10 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will not start. The rotor still needs an additional 2.75 turns now. You must get all 3 gear turns within about 10 seconds. |
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The question is if I can place the gears for Rotor 2, THEN place the gear for Rotor 1, then start turning Rotor 2. Or better, crank on Rotor 2 while Rotor 1 gear is being placed. The only time I see this mattering is in a 3 gear auton attempt, but it could matter a lot for making that happen. I'm assuming slamming a gear in a slot is faster than placing it on a peg, so you ideally want to overlap building Rotor 2 gear set and placing gear in Rotor 1. |
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--- As for the update, the manual always allowed you to grab your own rope - it now explicitly allows you to DAMAGE your own rope. That is the change. |
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FYI: The issue of Rotor order was also discussed in Q82 https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/qa/82 FYI2: Once a gear is used to turn a rotor, it cannot be removed. H10 |
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H10: GEARS stay installed. Once a ROTOR is started, the PILOT may not remove any GEARS used to start it. This would indicate gear sets can be rotated, short of starting the rotor, and a non-pre-installed gear can then be removed. If you can get the same or another gear back on the gear set and continue rotating before 10 seconds elapsed, you'd still be good, I'd think, otherwise you have to start a new three rotations. Depends upon where the sensors are, I'd think one on first and last gear in set would be sufficient. But maybe there's only a sensor on one of those and they rely on refs to see that you don't cheat the system. |
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Folks are overthinking the gears rules. |
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These are edge cases of course, but they could make a very big difference in a few teams' seasons. More teams will be working toward being those few, and the work to reach that point a huge upfront investment that benefits from understanding all these little details. |
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If Rotors only start if Gears are installed in Rotor Order (section 3.4.2), do "turns" out of sequence count? Does turning gears for Rotor 3 do any good if Rotor 2 has not yet been started?
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The only reasonable case for placing gears out of order is a highly choreographed autonomous, as suggested by Siri, and by me in other threads. Possibly also disinformation relating to your total gear count as well. |
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There *is* a penalty H14 for starting a rotor by any method besides turning the crank, which covers most of the rest of the 'creative gear scoring' Quote:
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And Q82 (in part): "ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order." In other words, you won't be able to start ROTOR 4 until all other ROTORS have been started, etc. As evidenced by the "in other words" of Q82, this is not a particularly tightly-worded section. (Requiring gears to be installed in rotor order is not in fact the same thing as starting rotors in order.) I suspect that HQ hasn't yet realized that this is of legitimate importance for some teams. As I read it now: 1) Rotors must be started in order. 2) A crank can be turned when a gear set is complete. 3) Rotation count resets when the next unengaged rotor has been idle for more than 10 seconds. I don't think that (3) explicitly means rotations within those 10 seconds while that rotor isn't the next in sequence don't count. My reading of the logical flow is ambiguous across any of the following Step 5s: Step 1 @ t=-3 Place Gear 1 in Rotor 2Then:
Trying to boil this down into a Q&A, I'm thinking: 1) It is understood that GEARS cannot be removed after a ROTOR is engaged. However, can a GEAR be removed after a ROTOR is rotated but before it is engaged? Does this differ if the rotating is less than a full revolution or is accidental or strategic (in the estimation of the referees)? 2) It is understood that ROTORs must be engaged in ROTOR order. Must GEARS be also installed (placed without rotating) in ROTOR order? [A82 seems to interpret the manual p23 this way, but the manual still says "installed" rather than engaged or rotated.] 3) If GEARS need not be installed in ROTOR order, can ROTOR N be rotated (for accumulation of the required 3 rotations) before ROTOR N-1 is engaged, assuming the third rotation and engagement of ROTOR N still occurs after N-1 is engaged? 4) If ROTORs need not accumulate rotations in ROTOR order, does the (10) second idle window from TU6 start with the first rotation or when that ROTOR becomes the next sequential unengaged ROTOR? Good point about deception regarding the number of gears you still need. My head was still stuck on autonomous. |
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1. Fastest delivery to center peg, Pilot A lifts gear and hands to PB or sets near PB. 2. PB lifts and grabs gear with second fastest delivery. (You should know which this is.) 3. PB places both gears, finishing around 10-12s into match. And starts cranking for dear life. 4. At some point before (15 - 3 cranks) seconds, Pilot A has lifted last and slowest gear and slotted into Rotor 1. The idea is that Rotor 2 is the slowest part of the process. If you can start it first and feed it the fastest two gears, you probably have the best chance at starting both Rotors. Honestly, sans team this year I have nothing to ground my speculations, thus my musings about 3 gear autons and gear count deception potentially playing a role at very high levels. Siri, I'll admit that a completely literal reading of that section with new wording could mean that the 10 second timeout doesn't apply to any rotor past the next unengaged one. Which would make this possible, assuming no auton rotors: 1. Collect 5 gears + reserve. 2. Install on Rotor 4, spin thrice. 3. Remove, install on Rotor 3, spin thrice. 4. Install 2 leftover on Rotor 2, spin thrice. 5. Install next 6 gears on Rotor 4. 6. Install last, 12th gear on Rotor 1. 7. Rotors 2-4 engage instantly. Or within 3 PLC cycles. That just seems ridiculous and would make the 10 second timeout pointless. So I'm assuming the GDC is just poor at fully defining the Rotor behavior in prose. It'd be easier for me if they just posted that segment of the FMS code, but that's probably not going to happen. |
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