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-   -   BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154349)

1566ammoknights 27-01-2017 19:26

BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Does anyone know if the bumpers are included in the volume size, or if they can be excluded and the frame size of the robot is the considered volume?

Hallry 27-01-2017 19:45

Re: FIRST STEAMWORKS Discussion & Quick Links
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1566ammoknights (Post 1637257)
Does anyone know if the bumpers are included in the volume size, or if they can be excluded and the frame size of the robot is the considered volume?

Read rule R03 VERY carefully:

Quote:

Originally Posted by R03
Maximum ROBOT size, including BUMPERS and all extensions, must be constrained to one of two volumes

Emphasis mine.

EDIT: Moved this to a separate thread and stickied to increase visibility.

EricH 27-01-2017 19:53

Re: FIRST STEAMWORKS Discussion & Quick Links
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1637266)
Read rule R03 VERY carefully:



Emphasis mine.

And please, we all (including the GDC in Update #6) implore you:

Use the search feature before asking questions.

On CD, it's in the orange bar near the top of the page. On Q&A, it's that fill-in box by the green button. In the Manual itself, CTRL-F will bring up a search function.

mrnoble 27-01-2017 21:22

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
I am bummed about the number of robots that will come to competition this year unable to compete at all. Some years, overweight robots need to get Swiss cheesed, or lose a mechanism. Some years, bumpers need to be reconstructed. How does a team recover when they need to lose ~6" on both X and Y? And then rebuild the bumpers?

Oblarg 27-01-2017 21:23

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1637291)
I am bummed about the number of robots that will come to competition this year unable to compete at all. Some years, overweight robots need to get Swiss cheesed, or lose a mechanism. Some years, bumpers need to be reconstructed. How does a team recover when they need to lose ~6" on both X and Y? And then rebuild the bumpers?

I hadn't actually thought about this, but upon reflection this does seem very likely.

RoboChair 27-01-2017 21:26

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1637292)
I hadn't actually thought about this, but upon reflection this does seem very likely.

1678 is planning an emergency triage team to help teams that show up with such robots. I really do pray that they won't be needed.

Someone should bring kitbot frames if they have any laying around.

AdamHeard 27-01-2017 21:28

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
OP is potentially trying to win that AndyMark prize in a creative way.

frcguy 27-01-2017 21:56

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1637294)
Someone should bring kitbot frames if they have any laying around.

Hmmm, we do...

What's the rules about bringing something like that in? Is it like part of the allocated weight for parts or no?

Basel A 27-01-2017 21:57

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1637306)
Hmmm, we do...

What's the rules about bringing something like that in? Is it like part of the allocated weight for parts or no?

Since it's assembled, it's gotta be bagged or withholding allowance. If unassembled (e.g. still in the box), then doesn't count for weight.

CalTran 27-01-2017 21:58

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1637306)
Hmmm, we do...

What's the rules about bringing something like that in? Is it like part of the allocated weight for parts or no?

What state do AM14u's and what not ship in as far as being a COTS part?

Kevin Sevcik 27-01-2017 22:02

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1637306)
Hmmm, we do...

What's the rules about bringing something like that in? Is it like part of the allocated weight for parts or no?

If they're completely unmodified, they're cots and you can bring in as many as you can fit in your pit. Any parts that are assembled or cut are a fabricated assembly and would count against withholding allowance. If you disassemble the frame, then any unmodified parts are cots, modified parts are still withholding. We don't want you bringing in ready made bots for allies or anyone else, no matter how well intentioned.

efoote868 27-01-2017 23:07

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1637296)
OP is potentially trying to win that AndyMark prize in a creative way.

That is trolling, in the most classic sense. Well played OP.

RoboChair 28-01-2017 00:04

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1637307)
Since it's assembled, it's gotta be bagged or withholding allowance. If unassembled (e.g. still in the box), then doesn't count for weight.

Bagged would work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1637314)
If they're completely unmodified, they're cots and you can bring in as many as you can fit in your pit. Any parts that are assembled or cut are a fabricated assembly and would count against withholding allowance. If you disassemble the frame, then any unmodified parts are cots, modified parts are still withholding. We don't want you bringing in ready made bots for allies or anyone else, no matter how well intentioned.

I agree that a fully built robot should not be brought as spare, but a fully assembled kitbot frame minus electronics that you bag with your normal robot works within the rules. It saves any team in dire need of a frame several hours of assembly that can be used to transfer mechanisms from their robot and their whole electronics system.

frcguy 28-01-2017 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1637345)
Bagged would work.







I agree that a fully built robot should not be brought as spare, but a fully assembled kitbot frame minus electronics that you bag with your normal robot works within the rules. It saves any team in dire need of a frame several hours of assembly that can be used to transfer mechanisms from their robot and their whole electronics system.


Huh... alright. We'll maybe bring one or two assembled kitbots to SF and SVR if it has the potential to help out some rookies.

GeeTwo 28-01-2017 00:30

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1637345)
Bagged would work.



I agree that a fully built robot should not be brought as spare, but a fully assembled kitbot frame minus electronics that you bag with your normal robot works within the rules. It saves any team in dire need of a frame several hours of assembly that can be used to transfer mechanisms from their robot and their whole electronics system.

Quote:

R21. At an Event, Teams may have access to a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 30 lbs. (~13 kg.), brought to an event (or ROBOT Access Period) in addition to the bagged items, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. With permission from another Team, Teams may also have access to FABRCATED ITEMS that are part of that other Team’s WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.
There's nothing here about using fabricated items which were in another team's bag, only their withholding allowance. The bag rules don't explicitly say that parts of the robot have to be put in that team's bag, but the use of "their robot" and "your robot" throughout R15 to R20 sure makes it read like this is the case.

Edit: Q360 asked.

Kevin Sevcik 28-01-2017 00:40

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1637351)
There's nothing here about using fabricated items which were in another team's bag, only their withholding allowance. The bag rules don't explicitly say that parts of the robot have to be put in that team's bag, but the use of "their robot" and "your robot" throughout R15 to R20 sure makes it read like this is the case.

There's a good Q&A. I can see the ruling going against handing another team bagged parts because why not bag a practice robot and give your third pick a twin? This also has interesting implications for cheesecake climbers....

So who's asking this Q&A? I don't have a login to pester the GDC anymore, so I can't.

pmattin5459 28-01-2017 01:58

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1637291)
I am bummed about the number of robots that will come to competition this year unable to compete at all. Some years, overweight robots need to get Swiss cheesed, or lose a mechanism. Some years, bumpers need to be reconstructed. How does a team recover when they need to lose ~6" on both X and Y? And then rebuild the bumpers?

We did this by a few inches width wise last year at our first competition. Not fun. Not fun at all. Something about the bumpers on our front not being at least six inches. This required tearing off about half of the stuff on our robot.

rich2202 28-01-2017 07:21

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1637351)
There's nothing here about using fabricated items which were in another team's bag, only their withholding allowance.

You could loan COTS stuff to the Spare Parts table ...

waialua359 28-01-2017 07:26

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1637291)
I am bummed about the number of robots that will come to competition this year unable to compete at all. Some years, overweight robots need to get Swiss cheesed, or lose a mechanism. Some years, bumpers need to be reconstructed. How does a team recover when they need to lose ~6" on both X and Y? And then rebuild the bumpers?

This should be in the weekly updates from now until week 1 events. The ramifications of not following this will make it very tough for everyone on practice day! Time to bring our spare AMU kits.:ahh:

GaryVoshol 28-01-2017 07:32

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1637368)
This should be in the weekly updates from now until week 1 events. The ramifications of not following this will make it very tough for everyone on practice day! Time to bring our spare AMU kits.:ahh:

Unfortunately, if they didn't read the rules, it's unlikely that they will read the updates.

We've had size changes before - didn't the total size go down when they switched to measuring the perimeter? And there was a year where your height changed per your weight. (Although I admit that's easier to fix than the horizontal sizes.)

And teams have shown up oversize before, with or without a size change. Or have had totally out of compliance moving frame parts. Even a team that showed up with their original kit of parts, nothing built. And they get to compete after a lot of good assistance from other teams in the pits.

GeeTwo 30-01-2017 14:24

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Q360 answered.
Quote:

Q360: May a robot include fabricated items from another team's tagged bag?
R21 specifically allows teams to use fabricated items from another team's withholding allowance, but not from their robot bag (or bags). R15 through R20 do not appear to explicitly forbid use of fabricated items from another team's bag, but the use of "their robot" and "your robot" throughout these rules imply that the parts in a team's bag may only be used on their robot. May a robot include fabricated items from another team's tagged bag?

Answer: Yes, a ROBOT element that was bagged "by 04:59 UTC on Stop Build Day, Wednesday, February 22, 2017" meets the requirements of R15 regardless of which Team's bag it was in.
Carry on! Cheesecake is not just for dessert!

bowmanb 30-01-2017 16:25

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
This happened to my team our rookie year. We were 1/8 of an inch too wide in X and Y (As the lone mentor, I thought it best to make as big a bot as we could!) When we didn't fit in that blasted box we had to tear down and cut an inch in both dimensions (C-channel kit bot - 2012). It was a cascading nightmare. By the time we got the thing back together and inspected, it was Saturday morning. We "participated" in exactly 3 matches that year.

FRC almost lost me right there. We need to do what we can to warn rookies of these constraints.

Jon Stratis 30-01-2017 16:37

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1637370)
We've had size changes before - didn't the total size go down when they switched to measuring the perimeter? And there was a year where your height changed per your weight. (Although I admit that's easier to fix than the horizontal sizes.)

Yes, that was in Ultimate Ascent. I had 2 teams at each of my events show up having built their robots on the previous year's frame. All of them got 10" cut off the front and reassembled. We managed to get them to all of their matches, but needless to say, their robot performance was not what they wanted when we were done making changes.

It was easier to make these changes with the old C-channel chassis, as that used chain to power all the wheels. Chain is easy to modify and make shorter. With the current robot chassis and most teams using belts with it... that's going to be more difficult. But hey, there's nothing in the rules that says your drive train has to be functional for you to pass inspection and get points for "participating" in a match.

Hopefully inspection teams at all events can be focused and creative in getting teams legal to compete, and then once legal getting them functional again so they don't miss out on any possible points in matches.

Andy Baker 30-01-2017 17:05

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1637296)
OP is potentially trying to win that AndyMark prize in a creative way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1637327)
That is trolling, in the most classic sense. Well played OP.


Since we have almost ZERO entries on this contest, the OP has a good chance of winning.

This $250 AndyMark credit could be easy money!!!

C'mon, people, let's see entries to this G04 / R03 Robot Volume Contest!

Sincerely,
Andy B.

Bob Steele 30-01-2017 17:15

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1637350)
Huh... alright. We'll maybe bring one or two assembled kitbots to SF and SVR if it has the potential to help out some rookies.

Be careful, read above regarding bagged vs withholding allowance...
Assemble kitbots would be considered part of your withholding allowance...if not in a bag.

I believe that you can freely exchange withholding materials and COTS but not what is in your bag...After reading QA 360 I am wrong on this... evidently you may use what is in your bag for another team..... just remember you are limited to 2 bags.

You GP is showing... but be careful... You can always bring in an unassembled kitbot...as COTS... without BAGGING and it will not count against the withholding allowance

AdamHeard 01-02-2017 13:02

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Baker (Post 1638330)
Since we have almost ZERO entries on this contest, the OP has a good chance of winning.

This $250 AndyMark credit could be easy money!!!

C'mon, people, let's see entries to this G04 / R03 Robot Volume Contest!

Sincerely,
Andy B.

Please consider OP entered!

mrnoble 01-02-2017 20:07

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
My kids are editing their video right now. We hadn't met since Saturday so this is our first real chance to work on it. It looks like fun! Hopefully they make it in by the deadline.

Al Skierkiewicz 02-02-2017 15:08

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Everyone,
If a team comes in over size please do not take it upon yourself to make any changes. Please involve the LRI who will help the team make decisions and then move on. They are in direct contact with the Head Ref, FTA and others at HQ who can best handle situations involving teams. All LRIs have my cell phone number and I have several other people I can turn to.
Thanks.

SCOfATeam 02-02-2017 17:44

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Then, does anyone know why this rule was implemented for this year?

EricH 02-02-2017 21:32

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCOfATeam (Post 1639632)
Then, does anyone know why this rule was implemented for this year?

You'll have to ask the GDC. Or Frank.

PERSONALLY, I see it as a throwback to the days of the sizing box: If your robot fit, you were good. Otherwise, the inspectors would show you which bolt you needed to cut off. Many teams learned--the hard way--that the box was absolute, and designed about 1/2" or 1" undersized. It was actually relatively easy to measure, if it was set up (properly).

The sizing box went away in 2013, as I recall.

Jon Stratis 02-02-2017 23:18

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
I don't have any insight to how the GDC reached this decision... but if I had to guess, I would go a different route from Eric. Part of the challenge this year is holding a lot of balls inside of the robot. So, the maximum volume is pretty important!

In the past, FIRST has gone with maximum frame dimensions (either in terms of X*Y or max FRAME PERIMETER) combined with a maximum distance you can extend past the frame.

They could have done that this year. However that would have drastically limited team's creative ability. If they just sized the robots 7" less in each dimension and said you could expand 3.5" past the frame perimeter, you would miss out on things like over the bumper pickup mechanisms.

So, I think these sizing rules are the most flexible rules the GDC could do while still limiting the overall storage capacity for teams.

BotDesigner 03-02-2017 00:04

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCOfATeam (Post 1639632)
Then, does anyone know why this rule was implemented for this year?

Think about the teams who would have "maximized' their fuel tank storage using last year's 15in extension allowed past the frame perimeter. Combined with the heavy defense we will see this year, things would have gotten really ugly.:eek:

Jon Stratis 03-02-2017 10:29

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1639709)
You'll have to ask the GDC. Or Frank.

It looks like someone did :)

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...award-reminder

Scroll all the way down to the comments, Frank chimed in with the reasoning behind the rule.

Chris is me 03-02-2017 10:41

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1639834)
It looks like someone did :)

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...award-reminder

Scroll all the way down to the comments, Frank chimed in with the reasoning behind the rule.

Other than the clunkiness of the change, I really do like the simplicity of the new rule, and the use of physical constraints to limit robot gameplay options rather than a hard rule about storage capacity. It's a nice way to go about game design, and it's pretty black and white - you either fit or you don't; no imaginary cylinders or trig or anything.

jvriezen 03-02-2017 12:07

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1639834)
It looks like someone did :)

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...award-reminder

Scroll all the way down to the comments, Frank chimed in with the reasoning behind the rule.

Interesting.. One of the first things I did on kickoff day was to compute the max diagonal of the volume to see how much of the lift *could* occur with the bot still partially supported by the floor.

StephenKohnle53 06-02-2017 07:37

Re: BUMPERS ARE INCLUDED IN ROBOT VOLUME THIS YEAR!
 
I hate making bumpers, and since my entire team does too, me and my brother are heads of the bumber team. We have one other student at least.


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