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2 gear autonomous
is there any way to place multiple gears from one robot in autonomous?
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Re: 2 gear autonomous
If you can convince an alliance partner to give up theirs and somehow support it fully and drop it in a reliable manner, go for it.
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To kinda elaborate further on Cal's response, no not really. You cannot legally enter your opponent's LAUNCHPAD to get to your retrieval zone, so you can't get to your stock of gears. Even if you could, you cannot go past the white line in the loading lane to load a gear, so that's out. You can't get one out of your own alliance station's loading station because of the same reason. The only way you could do it if both alliance decided to go full scale hard core Cooperition. One alliance gives up their pre loaded gear, puts on a specific spot inside the neutral zone, then the other alliance grabs it after putting a gear into the airship and then putting that second gear into your airship.
In short, no. No team is going to put the time to put this autonomous mode to either never use, or just use to benefit the other alliance only. Bragging points only. |
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That's creative, and I don't think I've heard that idea from anyone before, and I certainly hadn't thought of it myself. I don't think that's how one robot would end up doing a two (or three) GEAR auto, though. There are several threads already that discuss some possibilities that are more likely. It won't happen often, but it will happen that a team gets two GEARS in auto. |
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A 2 gear auto is only worth the effort if all 3 gears get placed on a peg and start roters in auto. Otherwise you haven't accomplished anything worthy of the complexity required for this auto.
I'm not saying it won't happen, because teams are clearly looking at it, but I don't see the benefit of it. |
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Is it possible? Perhaps. Is it really worth it? Probably not. It's much easier to cheesecake a gear holder onto a pushbot rather than come up with a complex auto that drops off a gear, finds and picks up another one, and then navigates back to the peg within about 10 sec (it takes a bit of time to get the gear on and start up the rotor). It's much easier on the human players and the robots if three robots are placing one gear each.
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Cheesecaking a box is easier than cheesecaking a camera and autonomous code to place the gear on a peg. I'd say, cheesecake a "drive forward" bit of auto code for teams that can't do that, and ask them to place their gear precariously on their bumper.
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G27. One-GEAR limit. ROBOTS may not control more than one GEAR at a time.
Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECH FOUL and YELLOW CARD. I mayou just be reading the thread here wrong but it seems add if this rule has been over looked. |
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2 gear auto probably only makes sense in Champs elims, because it's mainly useful as bonus points in excess of a hopper dumping high goal auto.
First, 2 gear auto is only useful if you're going for 3 total gears in auto. Otherwise the second gear is useless and you should have shot fuel instead of fetched it. Yes, I'm assuming a 2 gear auto team could also gear + high goal. That seems entirely reasonable to me. Second, you need a reason to do it. Scenarios: 1. All three robots can auto gear, 2 can gear + fuel. Call this +40 for gears, +16 for fuel. So +56 in this case. 2. Third pick can't auto. +20 gears, +16 fuel. +36 3. Third pick can't auto, someone can hopper + shoot. say that's an extra +25 fuel over #2. +61 for this auto. 4. Third pick can't auto, so you need to auto for it to get 3 gears. +40 gears, + 8 fuel, +48 points. 5. Third pick can auto, 2nd can hopper, 1st can 2 gear. +40 gears, +33 fuel. +77 total. 5 is the winner, but only works if you have two highly auto capable robots on the alliance, and a 3rd competent robot. Needless to say, this is a rare alliance. 4 is another 2 gear auto. But if you're in this situation and can pick between 2 gear auto and hopper + shoot, you should hopper + shoot unless you have terrible accuracy. Basically, if you can catch and hit enough balls from the hopper to make +20 points, you should be refining that auto first, since it's useful in many more situations. If you get that dialed, then you should think about a 2 gear auto, though you'll probably never use it. |
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GEARS D. One (1) available to each team to preload in their ROBOT (any not preloaded are staged with GEARS in E) E. Eighteen (18) in each LOADING LANE (staged on the carpet between the LOADING STATION and the STARTING LINE) F. One (1) in each AIRSHIP |
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That said, if you're going through that effort to make a two-gear auto peg, you might well be better served with a gear floor pickup that's useful at other times. I guess it'd mostly be about packaging at this point. In terms of a second gear being less useful than fuel, absolutely, but realize that the team in question may not have that choice. It is possible to have a gear system capable of a two-gear auto and yet not have the capability do fuel handling in your robot. Also realize it's not always playoffs. (We're actually running into this right now: we have some vision targeting strength on the team and the climber and basic gearer are okay, but we're having fuel problems. Fitting a gear floor pickup might actually be better--meaning less likely to hurt our climbing and gear performance even if it doesn't work--than burning more time and tradeoffs trying to integrate fuel. It's not a trajectory I would've picked originally, but somehow it's Week 4.) |
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TL;DR: practice 2-gear autons for quals, but if the 3rd partner and timing aren't right in elims then totally scrap it outright.
2 gear autons have a 'cool' factor. There will be the occasion where the robot places the 2nd gear with enough time remaining that it counts towards some more autonomous points, but it will be rare. If the 2nd gear causes a robot to miss its 5-pt line crossing, a non-scoring 2-gear autonomous is a total bust. Otherwise non-scoring 2-gear autons don't save much time in teleop compared to the other sequences that can be done in autonomous. If a partner drops a gear for my team to deal with, is it a better long-term strategy for us to pick it up immediately or to instead move the robot down-field for the first gear cycle? What if the gear were dropped on the side with the boiler, or near the airship where opponents couldn't see it? |
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Also keep in mind, you don't have 15 seconds to do this in Auto and get two rotors moving.
Even with two competent pilots, I expect nearly 3-5 seconds to get the last of three gears in place and rotated three times. (I say last because rotor one can be achieved while the last two gears are being collected) Does not negate a two gear auto bot, but does add one more factor to make it harder. |
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Anyone with a Q&A code: Figure 2-1 still shows the baseline as partway down the barriers, whereas Figure 3-1 shows it at the barriers' edge. TU1 told us that the Field Tour placement (and Figure 2-1) is incorrect, and "the BASE LINE is shown as being directly next to the AIRSHIP when it’s actually out at the edge of the Barriers", but the figure doesn't yet reflect this. Also note the spelling of baseline changes to BASE LINE after page 13. I get no relevant Q&A hits for either spelling. |
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ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4. The order of GEAR placement within a ROTOR set is not important. To start ROTOR 1, the PILOT places the GEAR in the GEAR slot at the top of the STEAM TANK, opposite the stack light for ROTOR 1. Steve |
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I think the most common 2 rotor autonomous success will come from alliances where all three robots score a gear on separate lifts. They should be able to easily complete that task with plenty of time remaining in autonomous for two reasonably skilled pilots to finish the job.
A two gear autonomous by a single robot is only interesting if: 1) the robot scoring the other gear does it soon enough so that the pilots can focus on the exclusively on the final gear in the last 5 or 6 seconds and the 2 gear robot gets it there by then, and 2) it frees the 3rd robot up to get points the alliance would not otherwise score (probably fuel oriented). This second point is important as it speaks to the consistency of the 2 gear autonomous. If on a given alliance, all three robots scoring a gear is very consistent and the 2 gear autonomous is somewhat less consistent at getting 2 rotors moving, are the other points the 3rd robot may score worth the risk? This is one of the reasons I am really starting to like this game. There are a bunch of interesting trade-offs to consider. Thanks, Steve |
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1. Rotor X+1 won't start and won't accumulate rotations until Rotor X is started. 2. Rotor X+1 will NEVER start or accumulate rotations if it EVER sees a rotation before Rotor X starts. #1 is straightforward programming in any language you care to use. #2 is a literal interpretation of your quoted text, but requires more complicated programming to implement. You have to intentionally latch a fault condition and intend to lock out all further rotor scoring if there's an out of order rotation. Silently, apparently, since there's no mention of any warning displayed for teams or pilots if they shoot themselves in the foot like this. So, obviously, I think it's incredibly unlikely that the system works as in #2. I think the rotor scoring logic is just inartfully stated in the manual, which is a thing that happens every year. But I can't FIX this because I can't post a Q to determine exactly what the GDC means. It'd be simple: "Can you place gears out of rotor order? Eg. place 2 gears in Rotor 2, then place gear in Rotor 1, then turn gears in Rotor 2. Does this result in 2 started Rotors?" |
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Our FRC Overlords are really not doing a great job on this subject. Certainly everyone agrees that Rotor N cannot actually engage before Rotor N-1. We also agree that the rotation count of the lowest unengaged rotor rezeros if it sits idle over 10 seconds (this doesn't, itself, preclude accumulating rotations when you're not the lowest unengaged rotor, though it's admittedly highest on this pile of loose mandates). A82 seems to think the former has the same meaning as the manual telling us the gears need to be installed in order. If the GDC actually means A82 instead of p23, it's unclear whether the A82 meaning forbids starting to accumulate rotations or just actually starting (engaging) the rotor. Alternatively, if you can't earn rotations on N before engaging N-1, then the question becomes whether you've completely lost Rotor N by rotating early or if you can still accumulate rotations after engaging N-1 [what Kevin said]. Similarly, if the GDC really does mean the current manual wording of installing in order, the description is still incomplete. The strictest interpretation of the current wording is actually that ever installing any gear out of order (by rotor) results in killing at least one rotor--which one is not clear. If you put your first gear on Rotor 2 and your second on Rotor 1, will Rotor 1 start (and will you get points for it)? If not, can you lift your first gear up and then get points for Rotor 1? I have now resolved to get myself a Q&A code. The waiting is driving me nuts. And I'm sure I'm annoying Kevin. |
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Kevin and Siri,
You both make good points and I agree that the manual and Q/A could be more clear on this subject. I took another read of both and it almost sounds like an alliance could do the following (not that I would recommend it) and still be within the rules and get credit for all 4 rotors: 1) fill rotor 2 with gears, 2) fill rotor 3 with gears, 3) fill rotor 4 with gears, 4) place a gear to start rotor 1, 5) crank rotor 2 to life, 6) crank rotor 3 to life, and finally, 7) crank rotor 4 to life. I appears from my latest reading (ask me again later) that steps 5 through 7 could NOT overlap but 1 through 3 could and step 4 could be completed anytime before 5. Thanks, Steve |
Re: 2 gear autonomous
But you can add one gear, then take a gear from an alliance partner. In order for a team to be controlling the gear, all they have to do is touch it, so the gear can be placed on the ground. With finesse and extremely efficient autonomous as I can only assume the top teams will be able to achieve, a 3 gear auton is theoretically possible.
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If you do happen to accidentally push a gear closer to your lift's while carrying another its a dead gear. Scoring it afterwards could be seen as an advantage. Also, the difference between herding and bulldozing is up to the discretion of the ref's, so keep that in mind. |
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G27 BB. ...Examples of interaction with GEARS that are not “control” include, but are not limited to:Note that these definitions can and do change year to year (so there's no FRC standard), though this one has been somewhat perennial. |
Re: 2 gear autonomous
There is no way to do it for only 1 robot to do more than one realisticly. If all three robots can do a gear in auto, that is just as good as 1 robot doing three gears. Plus, in auto, the max amount of gears in play is only 6, three blue, three red. So, make three auto if you are prioritizing gears; left, right, and center lifts. It will make you an asset and possibly a pick for the finals.
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Robot 1: Single gear Robot 2: Double gear + shoot(?) Robot 3: Hopper + High Goal Double gear auto will be for high level play, district champs and good elim alliances. |
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