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-   -   Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154454)

I_AM_Clayton 29-01-2017 23:08

Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
For the next 90 days, nearly all travelers, except U.S. citizens, traveling from Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Iran, Somalia, Libya, and Yemen will be temporarily suspended from entry to the United States. The 90 day period will allow for proper review and establishment of standards to prevent terrorist or criminal infiltration by foreign nationals.

This comes straight from the United States Homeland Security site. Although this 90 day ban won't stretch out until champs, will this effect any FRC teams located outside of the US traveling in for regionals? I don't know for sure but I don't think that there are many FRC teams if any at all in those countries. I'm not exactly sure but I assume that there are a few FLL or FTC teams in these countries. How will this effect the FIRST community going forward in the future? I believe this hurts the chances of students and people in those countries that want to start FIRST teams let alone travel to the US for regionals/champs.

jaredhk 29-01-2017 23:20

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Even if there are not FRC teams in those countries directly, the way everything is headed and working right now will cause problems for people from many more countries.

Even more so, I'm not sure that if I came from a non-English speaking country I would feel so welcomed here right now (don't get me wrong - I'd love to have you here).

JB987 29-01-2017 23:26

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
The new edict may also affect many visitors from other countries as well. IIRC, visitors to the US from many other countries will be required to interview at our consulates in person to get their visas...possibly adding considerable time and cost for visa processing as foreigners may have to travel great distances to find one of our consulates to interview at.

lurker 30-01-2017 00:16

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
The 90 day ban does extend until world champs. The first day of St. Louis (April 26) is 88 days after the ban (assuming effective Jan 28). So the ban extends to all of Houston champs and until the very last day of St. Louis.

The reason why I know this is because I'm a dual citizen of Canada and Iran so when this news broke I thought I wasn't going to be able to attend champs. But it was later announced that Canadian dual citizens would not be effected so at least there's that.

Thankfully, no countries that are home to any FRC teams are on the ban list so I don't think we'll see a case where a whole team is unable to go because of the ban.

jaredhk 30-01-2017 00:25

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lurker (Post 1637987)
The reason why I know this is because I'm a dual citizen of Canada and Iran...Thankfully, no countries that are home to any FRC teams are on the ban list so I don't think we'll see a case where a whole team is unable to go because of the ban.

There are still plenty of people being detained and questioned with dual citizenship and Green Card Holders.

CNN Politics has an article that may help people see the depth and magnitude to which the new ban applies.

Munchskull 30-01-2017 00:46

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lurker (Post 1637987)
The 90 day ban does extend until world champs. The first day of St. Louis (April 26) is 88 days after the ban (assuming effective Jan 28). So the ban extends to all of Houston champs and until the very last day of St. Louis.

The reason why I know this is because I'm a dual citizen of Canada and Iran so when this news broke I thought I wasn't going to be able to attend champs. But it was later announced that Canadian dual citizens would not be effected so at least there's that.

Thankfully, no countries that are home to any FRC teams are on the ban list so I don't think we'll see a case where a whole team is unable to go because of the ban.

Assuming that your Canadian passport does not scream duel citizenship you could try driving into to Buffalo then flying from there.

lurker 30-01-2017 00:53

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchskull (Post 1637993)
Assuming that your Canadian passport does not scream duel citizenship you could try driving into to Buffalo then flying from there.

It's been officially stated that Canadian dual citizens will not be effected by the ban so I should be fine.

jaredhk 30-01-2017 00:56

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lurker (Post 1637995)
It's been officially stated that Canadian dual citizens will not be effected by the ban so I should be fine.

This is probably true but at the same time, we all need to exercise extra caution - even full citizens in the United States.

MooreteP 30-01-2017 06:25

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
This will have a more profound effect on FLL teams.

Tsukunea 30-01-2017 09:54

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
If some teams will be unable to compete purely because of this, either competitions need to be pushed back or teams protest the ban, especially when competitions start. FIRST is about having a level playing field, and if the playing field will not be level, we need to all work to make it level.

Jon Stratis 30-01-2017 10:06

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukunea (Post 1638061)
If some teams will be unable to compete purely because of this, either competitions need to be pushed back or teams protest the ban, especially when competitions start. FIRST is about having a level playing field, and if the playing field will not be level, we need to all work to make it level.

Competition dates won't change. There's way too much involved in scheduling locations (Other weekends are most likely already full throughout the competition season), cost for teams that have already booked hotel and travel, and overall planning for the entire season, including shipping logistics for the fields. It's just too late to reasonably make changes.

The rules FIRST produces go towards making a level playing field by ensuring production time and cost of robots is roughly equal, but they don't make it completely level. Teams with the resources to make practice robots have a benefit over those who don't. Teams that have no snow days during the season have a benefit over those that are locked out of their school. Teams with a local even have a benefit over those that have to drive/fly and stay in a hotel. Teams with events in their country have a benefit over those that have to take a robot through customs (We've actually seen customs officials arbitrarily make teams disassemble parts of their robot and use separate bags for the different parts, requiring extensive reassembly time at the event). And then there's a difference for teams in districts versus regionals.

Yes, if any teams are affected by this it really sucks. I wish I could do something for them. But we can't let that stop the season for the other 3000 teams out there.

mrnoble 30-01-2017 10:08

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
This topic has the potential to explode into politics, but we are in an extraordinary time. My team includes undocumented students and middle-eastern immigrants, and there is legitimate concern about travel plans, since we intend to fly to Utah and Houston. We may have to divide the team up into flyers and drivers based on nation of origin. As the President would say, SAD.

Hitchhiker 42 30-01-2017 10:08

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help those teams affected in some way. Just because the playing field is a little uneven doesn't mean that we should just make it even more uneven.

FrankJ 30-01-2017 10:10

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Elements of this executive order were obviously poorly considered. (Some will find this an understatement :]) Expect it to change as the ramifications get fully explored. In other words: it is too early to tell.

Tsukunea 30-01-2017 10:14

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638064)
Yes, if any teams are affected by this it really sucks. I wish I could do something for them. But we can't let that stop the season for the other 3000 teams out there.

Your sympathy seems pretty half. You can do something, everybody can. Teams should stand up for each other.

Jon Stratis 30-01-2017 10:25

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukunea (Post 1638077)
Your sympathy seems pretty half. You can do something, everybody can. Teams should stand up for each other.

Everyone is limited in what they can do based on the demands already placed on them. I did what I could in November, but it apparently didn't matter. I do what I can to support groups with causes I believe in, which includes donating over 600 hours of my time and thousands of dollars every year to FIRST. Wishing there was something I could do for a hypothetical team halfway across the world isn't"half" - it's simply saying that there's nothing I can actually do to help them in this situation. I can't smuggle them into the country. I can't countermand an executive order. I'm not personally harmed by the order, so I have no grounds to take the issue to court. My state Senators and my congressional district representative have already come out publicly against the ban, so calling them for action isn't going to do any good.

Exactly what is it you think I'm supposed to do? What is it you think I actually CAN do?

I_AM_Clayton 30-01-2017 11:03

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1638068)
This topic has the potential to explode into politics, but we are in an extraordinary time. My team includes undocumented students and middle-eastern immigrants, and there is legitimate concern about travel plans, since we intend to fly to Utah and Houston. We may have to divide the team up into flyers and drivers based on nation of origin. As the President would say, SAD.

Your teams situation in addition to the multitude of political issues affecting FIRST globally sounds like an exciting and inspirational idea for a sequel to The New Cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1638016)
This will have a more profound effect on FLL teams.

I believe FLL will take the largest hit as a result of the ban :( . I hope the FIRST blog covers this, (I hope FIRST addresses this formally before champs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurker (Post 1637987)
The 90 day ban does extend until world champs. The first day of St. Louis (April 26) is 88 days after the ban (assuming effective Jan 28). So the ban extends to all of Houston champs and until the very last day of St. Louis.

The reason why I know this is because I'm a dual citizen of Canada and Iran so when this news broke I thought I wasn't going to be able to attend champs. But it was later announced that Canadian dual citizens would not be effected so at least there's that.

Thankfully, no countries that are home to any FRC teams are on the ban list so I don't think we'll see a case where a whole team is unable to go because of the ban.

Thanks for the clarification on the effect on champs, I hope FLL (or any other progression of FIRST) teams in those countries will be able to attend champs :( . I'm also glad that you will still be able to attend champs! I'm glad that no full FRC teams will be effected in travel because of the ban this season but, I hope that if and when FRC expands to those places that they will be given the respect and right to compete that they deserve.

Hallry 30-01-2017 11:22

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1638068)
This topic has the potential to explode into politics, but we are in an extraordinary time.

I've been keeping a close eye on this thread in case it needs to be closed, but I'm very glad to see that the conversation so far has been constructive rather than political bickering.

mathking 30-01-2017 11:29

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lurker (Post 1637995)
It's been officially stated that Canadian dual citizens will not be effected by the ban so I should be fine.

That has been officially stated, however the actual wording of the executive order is not the same as that pronouncement. There have already been (specifically) Canadian - Iranian dual citizens not allowed entry to the U.S. So plan ahead.

Monochron 30-01-2017 13:41

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638085)
What is it you think I actually CAN do?

Join the protests. Contact your Representatives and your Senators by email as well as by phone urging them specifically to take tangible action against this.

jee7s 30-01-2017 14:07

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638085)
Exactly what is it you think I'm supposed to do? What is it you think I actually CAN do?

I know this quote above was written somewhat rhetorically by Jon, but for those who read his post and are wondering what to actually do...

If you feel passionate about this topic, given the structure of our laws and the nature of visas, the best opportunity may be to approach this like the Olympics. Draw attention to the specific nature of the event for those specific individuals and plea for an exception in this case. Making it a general argument about the policy, as others here seem to suggest, is likely fruitless. Making it specific about the event, the culture and spirit of the competition, and keeping it specific to the teams involved is the most likely path to success.

Think of it in terms of the exceptions to such rules made during the cold war when the various teams from East and West would still compete against each other in the Olympics.

A rational, kind, professional, well worded, and appreciative letter to the federal government officials you feel are most likely to influence the situation is your best bet.

jaredhk 30-01-2017 14:21

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukunea (Post 1638061)
FIRST is about having a level playing field, and if the playing field will not be level, we need to all work to make it level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1638069)
Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help those teams affected in some way. Just because the playing field is a little uneven doesn't mean that we should just make it even more uneven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638085)
Everyone is limited in what they can do based on the demands already placed on them.

Exactly what is it you think I'm supposed to do? What is it you think I actually CAN do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1638164)
Join the protests. Contact your Representatives and your Senators by email as well as by phone urging them specifically to take tangible action against this.

For those who participated in the Invisible Inequities Diversity and Inclusion Module, this is the exact concept discussed. I highly recommend it to those who have not yet.

To be brief, equality discusses giving everyone the same tools to succeed. On the other hand, equity is providing people will the tools they need to be on a level playing field. An example from the module is that you may need to provide transportation options to someone in a low income area/with working parents/etc whereas you do not have to provide the same options to others for them to have a level playing field and equal shot.

Here is a message from Shelley Henderson (Diversity and Inclusion Manager, FIRST):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shelley Henderson
Leveling the playing field in our current political climate will require strategic, highly visible intolerance on the part of allies of any bias-motivated identity-based intolerance. We also have to be proactive.


Jon Stratis 30-01-2017 15:11

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1638164)
Join the protests. Contact your Representatives and your Senators by email as well as by phone urging them specifically to take tangible action against this.

Joining the protests... I'm at work by 8AM every day, heading to my team's build space when I get out, and don't get home until 9PM. When, exactly, am I supposed to join a protest? On the one day a week I actually spend at home taking care of my own needs?

My Representative and Senators are already taking action, adding my voice to the chorus won't change anything they're doing (and if you're going to add your voice, call, don't e-mail. Call's have to be listened to by someone and make them pay attention. E-mail's just get tallied up and mostly ignored). Sure, if I had different congressional representation calling them may have an impact. That's what you do when your Representative or Senator is not representing your point of view on an issue. But when they already are... then what? I've seen lists of Senators opposing the ban, and it includes over half of the Senate! That's half of the US right there that won't benefit from calling their Senator. There are more borderline issues where calling in is invaluable. Issues where calling in may actually help sway your senator. I really don't think this is one of them.

For many people, "taking action" just isn't that simple. There are real world considerations and personal commitments that prevent a lot of people from getting involved as they may like to, especially when it's something relatively quick or surprising. Some things, like the recent Women's March, get planned significantly in advance, allowing people to adjust their own schedules if they feel strongly about it. This, however, popped up overnight and is less than a week old. No room to adjust schedules!

jaredhk 30-01-2017 15:20

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Everyone takes action in their own way. You can donate (5 minutes), call a legislator (15 mins), or anything in between. I recommend any of these articles:

...and there are many more.

I don't mean this to call out anyone's politics but I am simply trying to provide information on many options to take a stand - on whatever it is you believe in fighting for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638244)
Joining the protests... I'm at work by 8AM every day, heading to my team's build space when I get out, and don't get home until 9PM. When, exactly, am I supposed to join a protest? On the one day a week I actually spend at home taking care of my own needs?

My Representative and Senators are already taking action, adding my voice to the chorus won't change anything they're doing (and if you're going to add your voice, call, don't e-mail. Call's have to be listened to by someone and make them pay attention. E-mail's just get tallied up and mostly ignored). Sure, if I had different congressional representation calling them may have an impact. That's what you do when your Representative or Senator is not representing your point of view on an issue. But when they already are... then what? I've seen lists of Senators opposing the ban, and it includes over half of the Senate! That's half of the US right there that won't benefit from calling their Senator. There are more borderline issues where calling in is invaluable. Issues where calling in may actually help sway your senator. I really don't think this is one of them.

For many people, "taking action" just isn't that simple. There are real world considerations and personal commitments that prevent a lot of people from getting involved as they may like to, especially when it's something relatively quick or surprising. Some things, like the recent Women's March, get planned significantly in advance, allowing people to adjust their own schedules if they feel strongly about it. This, however, popped up overnight and is less than a week old. No room to adjust schedules!


Monochron 30-01-2017 16:06

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1638244)
Joining the protests... I'm at work by 8AM every day, heading to my team's build space when I get out, and don't get home until 9PM. When, exactly, am I supposed to join a protest? On the one day a week I actually spend at home taking care of my own needs?

Protests where I am happen outside of work hours (and on weekends). As protest locations are everywhere from government buildings to airports, times are flexible. Of course, it may not be the same for everyone, and everyone's schedule is different, so I understand not being able to participate. It's all about priorities.

Quote:

My Representative and Senators are already taking action ... I've seen lists of Senators opposing the ban, and it includes over half of the Senate! That's half of the US right there that won't benefit from calling their Senator.
That's great news! Previous you just said that they had spoken out against it, which isn't all that much action.
In what ways are those Senators taking action though? I have only seen a handful of Congressmen taking actual action further than voicing their own disapproval. Calling congressmen who have simply voiced their disapproval can absolutely make a big difference.

Jon Stratis 30-01-2017 16:16

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1638297)
That's great news! Previous you just said that they had spoken out against it, which isn't all that much action.
In what ways are those Senators taking action though? I have only seen a handful of Congressmen taking actual action further than voicing their own disapproval. Calling congressmen who have simply voiced their disapproval can absolutely make a big difference.

So far press conferences and talking with refugees in the state (interesting fact, MN has the largest Somali population in the US), for the most part. Our state's Attorney General has also pledged support for any immigrants in the state affected by the ban (as have around 15 other State Attorney General's around the US). That's what they've personally done that's made the news. There are efforts within the Senate in the news that just apply the broad labels of "Democrats" and "Republicans", maybe referencing the party leaders, that I'm sure they are involved with.

GaryVoshol 30-01-2017 16:30

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1638016)
This will have a more profound effect on FLL teams.

About 2006, there was a coach of an FLL team from Jordan who could not get a visa, for whatever reason. The team couldn't attend World Festival. They were awarded a Judges' Award.

jaredhk 30-01-2017 16:33

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1638309)
About 2006, there was a coach of an FLL team from Jordan who could not get a visa, for whatever reason. The team couldn't attend World Festival. They were awarded a Judges' Award.

In 2016, the Jordanian team was very small, for a similar reason, if I recall.

Whatever 30-01-2017 17:05

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1638309)
About 2006, there was a coach of an FLL team from Jordan who could not get a visa, for whatever reason. The team couldn't attend World Festival. They were awarded a Judges' Award.

In 2004 my dad and brother competed in a non-FIRST robot competition in Saskatoon Canada. Two teams from a university in Iran had registered because they were unable to get into the US for any competitions here. They got to the event but Canadian customs impounded their robots until after the event was done.

PayneTrain 30-01-2017 17:06

Re: Will the international travel ban effect any FRC teams?
 
Maybe such an action will, in a weird and gross way, get FIRST to end the perpetual shafting of its worldwide program, FIRST Lego League by highlighting/uplifting some of the Open Championships that I believe occur in the late spring in places inside and outside of the United States.

I won't go into heavy details, but 422 comes from the Maggie L. Walker Governor's School for Government and International Studies, which is a very politically active public school. We have relationships with representatives at all levels that we stay in touch with. We are definitely keeping our eyes out for an official date for the March for Science. When going through the public school system, I could feel that we were entering interesting times. As I finish my undergrad, I enter the world with the confirmation that we have many challenges that we will have to face as a combined people, and I hope the skills we foster through our team help the kids we mentor face those challenges as well.


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