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BJC 31-01-2017 01:30

Fuel Shooting Census
 
Hey all,

Now that the build season is well underway I am curious how fuel shooting is going for everyone.

Are you maniacally laughing as fuel rains into the high goal?
Are you the slow and steady type?
Are you taking the shotgun approach?
Are you cursing every third fuel that thinks its too good to go in the goal?
Are you giving fuel the silent treatment because gears are where it's at?

A poll is above, however, other interesting fuel questions I couldn't fit.
Where are you shooting fuel from?
How much fuel do you plan to hold?

Please feel free to post anything from thoughts to specs to pics to bench grinders.

Cheers, Bryan

s_forbes 31-01-2017 01:40

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
I've had the DoubleMint gum jingle stuck in my head for the past two weeks.

Double your pleasure,
Double your fun!
Double your fuel rate,
with two turret guns

markmcgary 31-01-2017 01:52

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Posted this on the other thread. We plan to increase the speed and retain the accuracy, then double it with two barrels.
Edit: Theoretically. At least that is the plan.

Raysaran 31-01-2017 09:26

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
If you think about from a match play perspective, optimizing your shooter past 6-8 balls per second is not the most optimal use of your build time. We're looking at approximately 1.5-3 seconds of gain in cycle time. Even if you manage to up that rate by 2 more balls per second more, which is very difficult to do, you are looking at 1 second of gain per cycle (maybe 5 seconds if you spend the whole match shooting, or more likely, 2-3 seconds for you to get around 140 fuel).

If you have hit this point, it is highly recommended that you focus optimizing other parts of your system. I feel that teams often times focus too much on the shooter itself rather than the process of shooting fuel.

The biggest limiting factor for most robots is on your ability to put fuel in the goal is going to be the intake/collection and line up
. A combination of solid drivers training, automation/improvement of aiming process using vision is going to be more important than firing at 12 balls per second.

Chris is me 31-01-2017 09:28

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
I just want all of the balls out of my robot as fast as possible so I can get back to picking up gears. If half of them end up in the high goal that's great. If most of them end up in the hopper of a better shooting robot, even better.

Gdeaver 31-01-2017 09:30

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Getting a shooter to put balls in the boiler at high efficiency is only part of the problem. Aiming and getting the ball into the robot with out jams are also big problems. One jammed ball and it's gears or defense.

Sperkowsky 31-01-2017 09:31

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
The fuel arms race has everything to do with fuel feeding. Actually shooting fuel is not the difficult part.

Raysaran 31-01-2017 09:34

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1638545)
The fuel arms race has everything to do with fuel feeding. Actually shooting fuel is not the difficult part.

I'll agree the feed is important, but a properly designed feeder should not have an issue of feeding 6 to one or 12 to two shooters. You aren't going to be able to outshoot your feeder.

EmileH 31-01-2017 09:40

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
The shot angle is also very important. Balls will hit each other at the vertex of the shot parabola if the angle is steep (close to vertical) whereas if the shot is lower and more horizontal, the vertex is less pronounced and thus you can shoot at a faster rate.

M.O'Reilly 31-01-2017 09:40

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Anyone want to solve a differential involving the rate of shooting and the rate of scoring?

It's an interesting problem when you consider defense. One perfect bump can cause your robot to miss 40+ fuel if shooting at 20+/s. Contrariwise, slow shooting allows more time for defenders to disrupt your flow.

Every year, an element of the game surprises me. In 2017, I would be surprised if there were more than a handful of robots shooting >20 fuel/s at >90% accuracy. Looking forward to being proven wrong.

tig567899 31-01-2017 09:42

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
How the heck are teams managing 20+ balls a second at 90% accuracy - that's literally a ball every 5 milliseconds? What kind of sponsor just gives a high school robotics team a minigun?

EmileH 31-01-2017 09:43

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1638552)
How the heck are teams managing 20+ balls a second at 90% accuracy - that's literally a ball every 5 milliseconds? What kind of sponsor just gives a high school robotics team a minigun?

Multiple shooter heads or shooters greater than 1 ball wide.

MrForbes 31-01-2017 09:43

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Unbridled optimism is alive and well in FRC :)

Daniel_LaFleur 31-01-2017 09:48

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1638556)
Unbridled optimism is alive and well in FRC :)

Week 1 hasn't happened yet, so optimism reigns. :D

JohnSchneider 31-01-2017 09:50

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1638552)
How the heck are teams managing 20+ balls a second at 90% accuracy - that's literally a ball every 5 milliseconds? What kind of sponsor just gives a high school robotics team a minigun?

Welcome to a Chief Delphi poll where the responses are made up and the numbers don't matter.

Chris is me 31-01-2017 10:23

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1638552)
How the heck are teams managing 20+ balls a second at 90% accuracy - that's literally a ball every 5 milliseconds? What kind of sponsor just gives a high school robotics team a minigun?

To be fair, that's a ball every 50 milliseconds. Or two balls every 100 milliseconds, or three balls every 150 milliseconds.

But I doubt that anyone can definitively say they are "90% accurate" until they put it on a moving robot that's driving around on a field, not on some test bed.

Jon Stratis 31-01-2017 10:28

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1638579)
To be fair, that's a ball every 50 milliseconds. Or two balls every 100 milliseconds, or three balls every 150 milliseconds.

But I doubt that anyone can definitively say they are "90% accurate" until they put it on a moving robot that's driving around on a field, not on some test bed.

Even so, claiming 20 balls per second is a pretty tall claim, even if we allow half of them to miss. Machine Guns apparently have rates of fire of 600-1200 RPM - or 10-20 rounds per second. Teams are apparently claiming to be able to deliver at that same rate!

JesseK 31-01-2017 10:41

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
What have we learned from this poll?

11% are obvious trolls. 23% are very optimistic. 27% probably made the right choice for their team.

That 27% stat seems higher this year.

holygrail 31-01-2017 10:42

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
To me, the more important question is what else are you doing while shooting into the high goal?

In my opinion, the very best teams will have accurate turreted shooters that can shoot into the high goal almost absentmindedly while the robot is placing gears, dumping hoppers, etc. I think robots that have to sit in a very specific spot for a long time to shoot accurately are going to have a harder time than they expect, especially if everyone chooses the same spot right up against the boiler.

The optimism about 10-12 accurate high goals per second is fantastic and I truly hope to see it. However, there are no safe zones, defense will be a thing for sure and I just think high rates + high accuracy are going to be more rare than this thread reflects.

I honestly hope to be proven wrong on that.

jkelleyrtp 31-01-2017 10:53

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Holy?! I guess there are only ~100 voters so far, but 6-10 balls/sec at 90% accuracy would be an amazing prototype. That would have to include an automatic feed and a really good shooter itself with some sort of PID to keep whatever the mechanism is constant over time.

20+ balls/sec 91-100%... how... One hopper is 50 balls and the rest are on the floor. To truly take advantage of that would require a killer intake and killer feeder system. Good luck to whoever is getting those rates, I expect to see you on Einstein.

Also there's no option for 5 balls/sec :rolleyes:

GeeTwo 01-02-2017 10:38

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tig567899 (Post 1638552)
How the heck are teams managing 20+ balls a second at 90% accuracy - that's literally a ball every 50 milliseconds? What kind of sponsor just gives a high school robotics team a minigun?

FTFY.

Lil' Lavery 01-02-2017 10:49

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
I could believe 20+ balls/second for peak feed rate. The poll didn't specify peak rate vs. sustained rate.

ldsedam 01-02-2017 11:38

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
I have a hard time believing that teams are going to be capable of shooting 20 balls/sec. From what I seen thus far from other posts as well as my teams protyping, 3 balls/sec with one shooter is pretty fast.

I could imagine there will be teams that get up to 5/sec with one shooter and even if you had 3 shooters you are still only getting 15 balls/sec. I see 20 balls/sec as VERY optimistic. I would guess that most robots will shoot at or under 3 balls/sec for each shooter.

Wayne TenBrink 01-02-2017 12:29

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
As Jim Zontag would say, teams will tell you what they HOPE to be able to do, not what they ACTUALLY can do. We are still in build week 4, and I will go out on the proverbial limb and say that most poll voters are running on wishful thinking and optimistic projections from their prototypes. Do this poll again after bag day and then compare it with real world performance.

I can't wait to see what comes out in the reveal videos. This is going to be a fun game to watch and play.

KJaget 02-02-2017 11:15

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EmileH (Post 1638554)
Multiple shooter heads or shooters greater than 1 ball wide.

Or just outright lying :)

ShIfTiNgBoT 02-02-2017 12:25

Re: Fuel Shooting Census
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Are you maniacally laughing as fuel rains into the high goal?

Yes
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Are you the slow and steady type?

No
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Are you taking the shotgun approach?

No
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Are you cursing every third fuel that thinks its too good to go in the goal?

No
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Are you giving fuel the silent treatment because gears are where it's at?

No, but yes.
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
Where are you shooting fuel from?

Yes :D
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1638486)
How much fuel do you plan to hold?

Just enough to not slow down our cycles. ;)

Theory is a nice place to visit :yikes:


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